It should be very, very rare for face Hunter to fatigue against a control Warrior. Control Warrior should have the tools to end the game, but once the game stalls and the Hunter runs low on cards while the Warrior holds advantage the Hunter can/should surrender. Face Hunter card draw is not great, so once they dump everything that's kind of the game for them.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
- Status
For me,
1. Card advantage
2. Initiative.
3. Tempo
4. Value.
5. Card advantage
6. Burn
I think coming up with a new word for 5. is difficult. Some cards cycle through your deck and can be called cycling cards, but it's not really cycling when you draw more than one card I guess. Or is it reasonable to call it that?
When that happens, usually what's going on is that you avoid playing your pure CA cards (draw). So some players will hold onto that Acolyte when they have 5 cards left in their deck. Deck advantage, in this case, is just the compliment of card advantage.
(It's still not card advantage.)
Tracking is pseudo-card advantage, but negative deck advantage.
Arcane Intellect (and any draw) is card advantage, but negative deck advantage.
Thoughtsteal is card advantage but neutral deck advantage.
Etc, etc.
(It's still not card advantage.)
Tracking is pseudo-card advantage, but negative deck advantage.
Arcane Intellect (and any draw) is card advantage, but negative deck advantage.
Thoughtsteal is card advantage but neutral deck advantage.
Etc, etc.
My control warrior runs
2x Shield Block
2x armorsmith
2x healbot
2x Shieldmaiden
2x belcher
My control warrior does not grommosh or alexstrasza.
So yes, they either punch me down very very early, give up once they decide they're out of gas, or go to fatigue.
EnVy_CaLiBeR
Member
HOW AM I FUCKING LOSING
And before anyone asks, no I don't have Dr. Boom because I want to at least win with integrity.
You better embrace Dr. Balanced as your lord and savior over that Guardian of the Kings. Defender of Argus is nice, but I prefer Coghammer over it in the early game.
Also, cut an equality or Loatheb for Quartermaster.
Lifegain is usually defined as conditional card advantage. For example, healbot will usually take 2-3 cards to remove both him and its effect from aggro decks. However, vs control, it will probably be half a card of value because control tend to play bigger creatures and effects.
In general life as a resource get more and more value the more aggro there is in a format, and viceversa. See how Warlock vs facehunter is in general a bad MU.
I think just "card draw" distinguishes it from "card advantage." Card draw cards (such as arcane intellect or sprint) allow you to gain card advantage (where you have 5 cards in hand and I have 2).
That's fair.
Note, cycling and filtering is considered pseudo-card advantage in Magic spheres. Something like 0.5 of a single card.
Not that we must use this standard for Hearthstone but this is just how it is on the other side of the fence. Blizzard hates cycling/filtering anyway, because it increases deck consistency and leads to combos.
Not that we must use this standard for Hearthstone but this is just how it is on the other side of the fence. Blizzard hates cycling/filtering anyway, because it increases deck consistency and leads to combos.
That sounds painful to run vs. anything that's not aggro.
I do believe that card draw is the real problem with decks like Patron. The combo is fine; what's less fine is how easily they can set it up.
Patron would be much less consistent if it weren't outdrawing many opponents by 10+ cards. Some warlock combo decks are good but not great because of this; they can do 20+ damage in a turn, but they "only" outdraw their opponents by 5-10 cards, not 10+.
2 mana 0/1, Battle Cry: Gain +1/+1 for each type of tribe killed this game.
Here's how I look at most of the terms used in and around Hearthstone.
Value - A general term that describes a card or play that requires more resources spent to by the opponent to remove it than it does for you to play it. This can refer to mana cost, number of cards, or other game mechanics.
Dr. Boom is an example of value. He often requires multiple cards or more than 7 mana to be completely removed from the game.
Aggressive - A general term that describes minions or decks that are offensively themed and often ignore the board state in favor of directly attacking the opponents hero.
Flame Imp is an example of an aggressive card. You sacrifice your own health in the hope of killing your opponent before it matter.
Tempo - A general term that describes the current minions in play. A player who is ahead in tempo will usually have the only minions on the board or have the largest minions on the board.
Card Advantage - Having more choices on what to play or do than your opponent. This is usually represented by having more cards in hand than the opponent.
Stabilize - A term used to describe a Tempo swing against an aggressive deck.
Aggro Deck - Decks with a low mana curve that want to win the game before turn 10. Examples of this type of deck include:
Face Hunter - Plays cheap charge minions that direction attack face.
Shockadin. - Plays lots of divine shield minions that trade favorably and then attack face.
Tempo Deck - Decks that are very good at swinging the board state in their favor over one or two turns. Examples of this type of deck include:
Spell Mage - Uses cheap spells and spell synergy minions to clear the opponents board while building up theirs. Secrets like mirror entity may also stop the opponent from playing their best minion.
Oil Rogue - Uses removal spells and weapons to kill enemy minions until they can combo a board clear, allowing their minions to trade favorably or attack the opponent for the rest of the game.
Combo Deck - Decks that are dependent on several cards being played in the same turn to win. The synergy from these cards being played together is often enough to swing tempo into your favor. These decks are usually built with lots of card draw mechanics so you can more reliably draw into your combo.
Patron Warrior - Uses spells that damages their minions and grant them charge to kill in one or two turns.
Oil Rogue - Uses weapon buffs and Blade Flurry to clear the opponents board and deal face damage.
Mid-Range Deck - Decks built to Stabilize against aggressive decks and out value them in the late game.
Mid-Range Paladin - Value minions and weapons are used in the early game to trade with the opponent's more aggressive minions and uses high cost value minions to win the match.
Buff Priest - Uses Deathlord and buff spells to slow down aggressive decks, then heals up and uses value minions to win the game.
Control Deck - Decks that rely on Value and Card Advantage to win. Their reliance on high cost, value minions often leaves them vulnerable to fast aggressive play.
Handlock - Uses hero power to draw cards and plays minions that gain advantages while holding lots of cards. Those minions and the diverse options in their hand is how they win games.
Wallet Warrior - Uses weapons and Armor to stay alive into the late game, where the deck uses high cost legendary cards to out value the opponent.
Boorlum - A Card used to damage face and generate value by forcing your opponent to make poor trades against it. Can also be used for reach to finish off your opponent.
Edit:
That took so long to write the conversation moved on
Value - A general term that describes a card or play that requires more resources spent to by the opponent to remove it than it does for you to play it. This can refer to mana cost, number of cards, or other game mechanics.
Dr. Boom is an example of value. He often requires multiple cards or more than 7 mana to be completely removed from the game.
Aggressive - A general term that describes minions or decks that are offensively themed and often ignore the board state in favor of directly attacking the opponents hero.
Flame Imp is an example of an aggressive card. You sacrifice your own health in the hope of killing your opponent before it matter.
Tempo - A general term that describes the current minions in play. A player who is ahead in tempo will usually have the only minions on the board or have the largest minions on the board.
Card Advantage - Having more choices on what to play or do than your opponent. This is usually represented by having more cards in hand than the opponent.
Stabilize - A term used to describe a Tempo swing against an aggressive deck.
Aggro Deck - Decks with a low mana curve that want to win the game before turn 10. Examples of this type of deck include:
Face Hunter - Plays cheap charge minions that direction attack face.
Shockadin. - Plays lots of divine shield minions that trade favorably and then attack face.
Tempo Deck - Decks that are very good at swinging the board state in their favor over one or two turns. Examples of this type of deck include:
Spell Mage - Uses cheap spells and spell synergy minions to clear the opponents board while building up theirs. Secrets like mirror entity may also stop the opponent from playing their best minion.
Oil Rogue - Uses removal spells and weapons to kill enemy minions until they can combo a board clear, allowing their minions to trade favorably or attack the opponent for the rest of the game.
Combo Deck - Decks that are dependent on several cards being played in the same turn to win. The synergy from these cards being played together is often enough to swing tempo into your favor. These decks are usually built with lots of card draw mechanics so you can more reliably draw into your combo.
Patron Warrior - Uses spells that damages their minions and grant them charge to kill in one or two turns.
Oil Rogue - Uses weapon buffs and Blade Flurry to clear the opponents board and deal face damage.
Mid-Range Deck - Decks built to Stabilize against aggressive decks and out value them in the late game.
Mid-Range Paladin - Value minions and weapons are used in the early game to trade with the opponent's more aggressive minions and uses high cost value minions to win the match.
Buff Priest - Uses Deathlord and buff spells to slow down aggressive decks, then heals up and uses value minions to win the game.
Control Deck - Decks that rely on Value and Card Advantage to win. Their reliance on high cost, value minions often leaves them vulnerable to fast aggressive play.
Handlock - Uses hero power to draw cards and plays minions that gain advantages while holding lots of cards. Those minions and the diverse options in their hand is how they win games.
Wallet Warrior - Uses weapons and Armor to stay alive into the late game, where the deck uses high cost legendary cards to out value the opponent.
Boorlum - A Card used to damage face and generate value by forcing your opponent to make poor trades against it. Can also be used for reach to finish off your opponent.
Edit:
That took so long to write the conversation moved on
It's very good against slow control decks, because it also has gorehowl and gorehowl can eat 4+ minions against a slow control deck that cannot punish that sort of value. It struggles mightily against mid range decks like druid. It survives against aggro, and outvalues most control.
It's weak against specific cards like Jaraxxus, which can create unlimited value against a deck which cannot punish a 15 hp life cap. Most control warriors can (with grommash), I cannot.
LittleBallofHatred
Coming from a MtG background, this is called Card Advantage. In a parity situation, you or your opponent would spend 1 card to nullify the other's. Here, your opponent has spent two cards to your one, meaning all things considered you now have an advantage in cards (not even counting the extra card generated by Ysera.)
Any time you spend fewer cards to nullify a greater number of enemy cards, you gain card advantage.
Dahbomb88.
I view "tempo" as plays that establish board superiority, sometimes at the expense of card advantage. In MTG something like Man-o'-War would be a nice tempo card, and Sap is the perfect HS example, but I would also call something like Flame Elemental a very strong tempo play because it takes something off the opponents side while adding to your own side (which could also be considering card advantage).
Value is a nebulous word that I haven't really heard pop up in MTG circles too much (I haven't been actively playing in any kind of scene for a few years now, I mostly Cube draft with friends nowadays). Value just seems like this catch-all term that basically means "good" in HS, but usually specifically means "facilitates 2 for 1's" which in turn means: shouldn't it just extend to the classic definition of "card advantage"?
I found an old old definition from Eric Taylor (A Grand Prix Champ back in the day) when Magic newer that I think still holds up in both games. He defined card advantage as "any process by which a player obtains effectively more cards than his opponent". Key word being "effectively". This could mean literally drawing more cards from an arcane intellect, or nuking three minions with your one flamestrike for a 3-for-1. It means not only having more options but also more importantly, more resources overall. I feel like people could easily use this definition when talking about anything that's good "value"; it's really just a good source of CA. Although I've heard people use both terms when discussing Hearthstone.
Am I wrong? Is there a situation where a card is considered "good value" and not a good source of card advantage? Is there something extra a card needs beyond being a source of CA to be considered good value? Are people saying card advantage just old MTG players while people talking value are recent HS players?
Value is a nebulous word that I haven't really heard pop up in MTG circles too much (I haven't been actively playing in any kind of scene for a few years now, I mostly Cube draft with friends nowadays). Value just seems like this catch-all term that basically means "good" in HS, but usually specifically means "facilitates 2 for 1's" which in turn means: shouldn't it just extend to the classic definition of "card advantage"?
I found an old old definition from Eric Taylor (A Grand Prix Champ back in the day) when Magic newer that I think still holds up in both games. He defined card advantage as "any process by which a player obtains effectively more cards than his opponent". Key word being "effectively". This could mean literally drawing more cards from an arcane intellect, or nuking three minions with your one flamestrike for a 3-for-1. It means not only having more options but also more importantly, more resources overall. I feel like people could easily use this definition when talking about anything that's good "value"; it's really just a good source of CA. Although I've heard people use both terms when discussing Hearthstone.
Am I wrong? Is there a situation where a card is considered "good value" and not a good source of card advantage? Is there something extra a card needs beyond being a source of CA to be considered good value? Are people saying card advantage just old MTG players while people talking value are recent HS players?
This is sort of my problem in trying to have static terms for these things. A card provides varying degrees of health/tempo/card advantage. It could be ok at both or high in one negative in another etc.
These are ranges with basically infinite values. If you try and call ancient of war one thing and arcane intellect another, then what do you call 7 mana 3/3 draw 3?
I much prefer to just say that arcane intellect generates card advantage while ancient of lore generates both tempo and card advantage. And then you can qualify how much of either resource if its relevant to the conversation.
I agree with that
In case anyone doesn't know how to enter a private Twitch chat room, there are instructions posted here:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1063083
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1063083
Double Quartermaster is a tech choice. It can be really clunky to play a second one.
If you mean Varian, yes!
Also agree with Dreavus and Kuroneeko. I've kind of lost sight of how many forms CA can take (Explosive Trap can generate a lot of negative tempo and negative CA at the right time) and that value is really just CA. Or CA (getting raw cards) is a subset of value (getting effective cards)
Varian Wrynn is totally card advantage + tempo.
It's the same reason why Ancient of Lore is so good. You don't fall too far behind on tempo, while gaining card advantage.
Yes, I meant Varian, thanks.
Well, from my perspective -- based on your analysis -- I feel the term "card advantage" is far too broad and covers too many disparate concepts under a single umbrella. There's a big difference between "card advantage" gained from prep + sprint and "card advantage" gained from playing a ysera who lives a turn and gives you 2 cards and takes 2 cards for your enemy to kill -- even if in both cases there is a 4 card swing in your favor.
'value' is situationally dependent. If I'm playing control warrior against handlock and I get an 8 damage shield slam against their mountain giant that was a high value shield slam. If I have to instead shield slam a belcher then that was a low value shield slam.
To me, value has to do with a card reaching its potential in a given game
That's only lower value than killing a Mountain Giant. Killing a 5 mana 5 health creature with a 1 mana spell is still really efficient.
Well we can split my idea of CA into two. CA as it has to do with cards in your hand (and this is further split based on whether it's created or drawn). And Value as it has to do with "effective CA": Knife Juggler, Flamewalker, Imp Gang, Highmane, Boom. Basically "bang for your buck".
Yeah, I'm using "value" to mean "bang for your buck" basically. Cairne, Shredder and Boom are excellent examples at different mana cost minions that provide extremely high bang for your buck and are likely to generate card advantage because they are so messy to get rid of.
High/Low value is of course relative. The reason I put a dividing line between the two and call one high value and one low value is that in this specific matchup it reflects the fact that the warrior is (probably) losing if it happens. Its a play the warrior is being forced to make instead of the one it wants to make.
It sort of nebulously reflects the fact that I am now a lower% chance to win than I was before. I did not get (as much) value out of my shield slam as I need to be in a strong position to win.
Interfectum
Member
Does anyone have a history for these terms? Do they come from Hearthstone or games like Magic?
I don't think Varian is very high value, where "value" is again "bang for your buck." He's high on card advantage and tempo, but not value.
If Varian were to pull out a sludge belcher, Sylvanas and a piloted shredder, those would be high value cards that give you tremendous "Bang for your buck" and are each likely to cost your opponent considerable resources to deal with. But Varian himself is just a 7/7 body; as an individual card, he does not provide a tremendous amount of "bang for your buck."
If Varian were to pull out a sludge belcher, Sylvanas and a piloted shredder, those would be high value cards that give you tremendous "Bang for your buck" and are each likely to cost your opponent considerable resources to deal with. But Varian himself is just a 7/7 body; as an individual card, he does not provide a tremendous amount of "bang for your buck."
It sounds like perhaps a little too influential, in that some people seem to be superimposing concepts from Magic on to Hearthstone even if the fit is a little rough.
In Magic, you can have as many cards as you want in your deck, right? Is there an analog to fatigue? In that case, something like deck advantage is completely meaningless, while it actually matters in Hearthstone. You may not play heavy control decks, but as someone who does, please trust me, it often matters!
The decks that want more than 60 cards are even more fringe than mill in Hearthstone.
Statistically, most people stay at the minimum of 60 because it means playing your "60 best cards", and that every draw is maximized to generate the greatest amount of "good cards".
It's actually a big deal when someone runs 61, or 62.
And yeah it can be stifling, but I don't blame them. Frankly, theory and writing in the world of Hearthstone is very juvenile. The best writers on HS theory are, really, those are familiar with the theory of Magic, which has a decade of history going into it.
My own grasp of Magic theory isn't very detailed either. I can never write something like this, for example: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/tempo-conceptual-framework/
(This article makes a case for the contextual evaluation of tempo, which I kind of agree with? But it's 2abstract4me.)
EDIT: Oh, in Magic you lose when you try to draw from an empty deck.
Statistically, most people stay at the minimum of 60 because it means playing your "60 best cards", and that every draw is maximized to generate the greatest amount of "good cards".
It's actually a big deal when someone runs 61, or 62.
And yeah it can be stifling, but I don't blame them. Frankly, theory and writing in the world of Hearthstone is very juvenile. The best writers on HS theory are, really, those are familiar with the theory of Magic, which has a decade of history going into it.
My own grasp of Magic theory isn't very detailed either. I can never write something like this, for example: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/tempo-conceptual-framework/
(This article makes a case for the contextual evaluation of tempo, which I kind of agree with? But it's 2abstract4me.)
EDIT: Oh, in Magic you lose when you try to draw from an empty deck.
You can have as many as you want, but 99% use 60 or 61 cards. Also, the deck itself is often used as a resource itself with things like dredge or milling (at least it was when I played 8 or so years ago).
IIRC if you run out of cards in Magic you just immediately lose.
What happens when you run out of cards to draw in Magic?
Oh wow. Still, the difference between 60 cards and 30 is enormous. Enormous. It's much harder to grind out someone's deck when there are 60 cards instead of 30.
Please note that I don't mean mill; I just mean two control decks going at each other. It's pretty common for (for instance) a Control Priest and Control Warrior to go to fatigue. I doubt there is an analog with 60 card decks.
Oh wow. Still, the difference between 60 cards and 30 is enormous. Enormous. It's much harder to grind out someone's deck when there are 60 cards instead of 30.
Please note that I don't mean mill; I just mean two control decks going at each other. It's pretty common for (for instance) a Control Priest and Control Warrior to go to fatigue. I doubt there is an analog with 60 card decks.
Yeah, you lose immediately if you have to draw a card but can't.
If you are forced to draw a card from your deck (such as at the start or by any other means) and you don't have a card to draw, you lose immediately.
I think value is just too vague of a term to try and pin down in this way. It's used to refer to efficient trades, gaining card advantage, and other good situations.
Also anything that generates Tempo for you is also generating Value for you. Varian isn't just a 7/7 body, he is that body, plus minions, plus cards and you can't ignore any part of that.
Recent example of a deck-out win: http://www.twitch.tv/channelfireball/v/10297223?t=6h06m17s
Mill is a popular strategy among newer players because it's quirky and weird (and their surveys show new players love alternate win-cons), but it's rarely competitive.
Mill is a popular strategy among newer players because it's quirky and weird (and their surveys show new players love alternate win-cons), but it's rarely competitive.
Very close. You lose when you attempt to draw a card and can not do so. It's a rare situation in Magic for a few reasons(much easier and more accessible recursion of used cards, larger deck size relative to cards drawn, strategies centered around making the opponent "draw out" being relatively weak and rare).
Ah, I see. You have to try to draw from an empty deck rather than just lose your cards.
Technically that's true in Magic, but unless you are playing a Battle of Wits deck, you want to remain as close to the lower limit as you possibly can.
A bigger deck means a bigger variance when trying to draw lands (they're like mana crystals that come as cards that you can only play one-of a turn. You are at a big disadvantage if you have too many or too few) AND a bigger variance to the actual cards you are drawing to support your strategy. A 60 card deck has a higher chance of drawing the specific cards included in it than a 100 card deck because the 100 card deck has 40 additional cards that you could draw. Magic's card limits is 4 copies of a card in a deck, so it's best if you can stick to the smallest deck with the most copies of the cards that support your strategy, instead of having extra cards that dilute your deck.
However, that all being said, Magic does have some classic "mill" (origin of the term is this card, "library" meaning deck and "graveyard" being your discard pile) which tries to directly empty your opponents deck to kill them, because if you can't draw a card from your deck you lose immediately in that game. These decks actually directly attack the opponent's deck which is something that doesn't actually exist in HS yet. Best we have to making people overdraw.
The difference is that games in Magic don't often go to "fatigue". The decks are often big enough that people have a hard time "decking" themselves in a regular match, where no milling is involved. It can happen in draft games (where the deck size is 40) but in my experience even that is pretty rare for the most part.
EDIT: beaten by Haly in far fewer words, haha
- Status