Aquavelvaman
Banned
It just takes one Kezan Mystic to turn your frown upside down
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Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
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It just takes one Kezan Mystic to turn your frown upside down
Just passed 9000 gold after some good arena runs this week. Hopefully I can get everything I need in 80 packs. Have to commend Blizzard in making a solid free-to-play model with this. Outside of about 12 arena buy-ins way back during the beta I haven't spent a cent on the game.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
This game is so silly. The only way anyone wins anymore is with the GOD DRAW or GOD RNG. Just lost a game to voidcaller void terror into doomguard into bane of doom into Illidan.
Like. What do you do? I had pretty good draws too, played on curve turns 1-7. But no, I didn't get a free doomguard and illidan, so I lost.
Like. What do you do? I had pretty good draws too, played on curve turns 1-7. But no, I didn't get a free doomguard and illidan, so I lost.
daemissary
Member
Constructed really is awful right now. Aggro is too strong and since it has been so long since the last influx of new cards, decks have been finely tuned to the point where aggro God draws are impossible to beat.
I basically want to gouge my eyes out whenever I see a leper gnome.
I dunno, I see a lot of complaints about patron. But I feel like that is the only deck where the game is not decided by turn 1. Sure its bullshit that it can do damage out of no where, but at least it requires skill, unlike every other deck where its like, oh I drew flamewaker and mirror image which killed your 2 drop. Oh, and I have a bunch of spells, I win.
How do aggro decks differ from control decks?
The control player can still make a mistake. The aggro decks play themselves, should I play one of my 3 cards or not? Hmmmm, I only have mana to play 1 of them, I guess I will play it XD
Edit: I know this because every time I play control my winrate goes down, Kappa.
Most of the best decks in the game right now are not aggro. Patron. Midrange Hunter. Midrange Druid. Oil Rogue. Handlock.
The meta is in a really good spot. You don't want the game to slow down too much or else the fatigue shit starts creeping up. And as far as I'm concerned that shit is even more cancerous than aggro.
WesternHeretic
Member
Well I play aggro palladin and my game actually isn't decided on turn 1 but usually turn 3-4. Do they have an AOE? And can I replenish if you do?
If you don't have an AOE then you lose. And if you do have and AOE and I can replenish then you most likely lose too. But if you do have AOE and I don't then I lose.
Also do I have owl for taunts? What I do feel is decided on turn 1 is do I have a shot at getting early board control, because all I really want to do is get board control from turn 1 to turn 3. Then from Turn 4 and forward I just want to face you with board control. If you can delay my board control from turn 3 to let say turn 5 (instead of turn 1-3) then I can't face you on turn 4 but have to wait till like turn 6 to 8 (I want to start facing at turn 4 not 6+). And then you probably win by turn 8 when I have nothing left.
So I do think the board control is heavily decided on turn 1 but the game actually is decided on turn 3 and 4.
But that's just my two cents.
yes but the chance you have those cards on turn 3 or 4 is largely decided when you throw away your opening cards. If you already have your turn 1 and 2 play, you can toss 2 extra cards for divine favor or consecration, or whatever you need for that match up. Also, how many games do you win where you pass turn 1 and hero power turn 2 because there is literally no card you can play? I bet it is a really low number.
When I play mech shaman if I get fire ele, fire ele, fel reaver in my opening hand, I lose. If I get mechwarper mechwarper anoy-o-tron cogmaster, I win. The game is decided 90% in the first turn.
But ya, I guess I concede that it really is did you draw X by turn 4, I just think your initial hand matters more.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Which is still absolutely ridiculous. Several classes don't even have a usable board clear by turn 4 and the ones that do aren't guaranteed to draw it. Not to mention even if they do get lucky and draw it they have to purge their hand before Divine Favor or they still lose. Which even IF they manage to stabilize they're still at the mercy of stuff like Arcane Golem, Leeroy, Truesilver and Consecration.
"Get a lucky draw or you lose. Although even if you get that lucky draw you still might lose." Hearthstone is at its worst when it's like that.
Personally, if TGT falls flat on slowing down the meta I would not be opposed to Blizzard going in and rebalancing some of the low mana cards. Stuff like Leper Gnome, Abusive Sergeant, Knife Juggler and Mad Scientist are way too efficient for the cost, just to name a few. Either that or finally make taunt unsilenceable (although that opens up a whole new can of worms with something like Handlock).
daemissary
Member
I've played 30+ games today and of the decks you listed I've played against zero oil rogues or handlocks, two patrons, two Druids and 3 midrange hunters. Besides that, there was one random control warrior and every single other deck was face.
If the meta were truly in a really good spot...that distribution would be way closer to even.
People play fast decks because grinding ranked is about how many matches you can go through.
It's better to play a 52% win rate deck that's 3 times as fast as a 56% win rate deck.
Raw win rate only really matters around like, what, rank 5? When people get serious about the Legend climb and you can't count on free stars from streaks.
It's better to play a 52% win rate deck that's 3 times as fast as a 56% win rate deck.
Raw win rate only really matters around like, what, rank 5? When people get serious about the Legend climb and you can't count on free stars from streaks.
I played 2 handlocks today, 0 oil, 0 control warrior, 0 druid. LOTS OF Mage, Hunter, Zoo, Patron, and aggro paladin. Oh and 1 priest who won because he started with zombie chow, coin zombie chow into the god draw shadow madness cabals ect.
WesternHeretic
Member
Yea but it's such a huge risk to hold onto divine favor or consec (I mean sometimes I do it....depending on the situation) in your opening hand. The dream is basically top decking those two when you need it.
As for passing turn one then hero powering turn two yea gg... but I have won with it before and the only reason was because the other guy drew shit too.... so I unloaded like 4 1 mana by turn 4 LOL. I agree there that's pretty much donezo.
I feel like class who normally don't want to purge their hands but just do it for the sake of me not optimizing divine favor actually do well against me. I guess what I'm saying is don't play how you normally would play against aggro and you'll be surprise how much more you'll win. You're basically just going to have to zoo it up and throw shit on the board to get in my way and then watch me starve to death in the late game (if you make it). And usually you will or won't make it depending on if I draw the right boost by turn 5-6 (blessing of kings, might, or a charge) for lethal. If I don't draw one of those then I starve out and if I do then I win with 0 to 2 cards in my hand (which really sucks for you, because I'm about to starve).
Control decks are reactive, aggro decks put out threats that need to be reacted to.
Off note: To be quite honest, classic control decks aren't that strong in Hearthstone to begin with. The only control decks that work are those that have a way to set up lethal within two turns. With Handlock it's setting up a bunch of giants in a turn, with Freeze Mage it's the Alex into nuke combo, with Control Warrior it's Alex into Grommash. And to be quite honest Control Warrior has suffered a massive decline as of late because minions and pressure are too much for Warrior removals nowadays. The fuck is a War Axe gonna do against Haunted Creepers, Shredders and Minibots?
Decks like Grim Patron and Oil Rogue sort of punish raw control decks because control decks don't put up enough pressure to finish the game before those other decks get their win conditions (as classic control decks are reactive by nature). And aggro decks punish control decks by having minions that are tough to deal with at the start and just snowball out of control.
Fact of the matter is that a lot of removal options aren't efficient enough for the type of minions that flood the early game.
I feel like the control decks use a bunch of vanilla spells balanced around removing shit like Yeti and river crock, and knife juggler. New stuff like imp gang boss, void caller, and more really needs to be silenced... And the best silence is owl, which surprise, fits best into aggro decks lol.
Having a weapon that silences on hit would be amazing for the meta.
Even if it's like a 3/2 for 3 mana it would actually get played a lot to counter shit like Shredder.
But Blizzard hates silences nowadays because it doesn't let some of their shitty cards and combos get played.
Even if it's like a 3/2 for 3 mana it would actually get played a lot to counter shit like Shredder.
But Blizzard hates silences nowadays because it doesn't let some of their shitty cards and combos get played.
daemissary
Member
I don't disagree with what you are saying at all...that just means the game needs to be balanced to combat that otherwise the ladder will never be anything but 80% face.
You either need to incentivize playing slower decks somehow or introduce tools that can make a deck which counters aggro decks HARD but loses fairly consistently to anything which isn't face.
You can make a deck that beats aggro 70% of the time, but that deck loses 90% of the time to anything but 100% face. So you lose to midrange hunter, zoo, and all the uncommon stuff so it doesn't work out to being playable on the ladder even if the ladder is 80% aggro.
WesternHeretic
Member
I just got a win on turn 5 and 6... haha.. Yea... okay that is a little bull shit. Your complaints are valid. I basically got back to back god top deck draws.
WOOT rank 9! Not bad for a first month player!
WOOT rank 9! Not bad for a first month player!
If you guys saw the Archon team tournament then you would know that aggro is as prevalent in that tournament as it is on ladder.
You saw the same old Aggro Paladin, "Hybrid" Hunters, Mech Shaman, Tempo Mage, Mech Mage, Zoolock that you see on Ladder.
Zoolock was favored over Handlock for the Warlock pick, Aggro Paladin was favored over the Midrange/Control Paladin, Mech Shaman over Midrange Shaman, Tempo/Mech over Freeze (though Freeze was still fairly prominent), Grim Patron over Control Warrior and of course Hunters really only play one way. The only class that was played as a Control class exclusively was Priest which was Kolento's all in anti aggro deck (which sucks ass against every thing else).
I guess it's fair to bring up that Druids are playing more ramp style now with Senjins and Ancient of Wars teched in to counter the aggro and Grim Patron. It has worked decently well I would say. They still run double combo though because you still gotta finish games fast the cheap way.
You saw the same old Aggro Paladin, "Hybrid" Hunters, Mech Shaman, Tempo Mage, Mech Mage, Zoolock that you see on Ladder.
Zoolock was favored over Handlock for the Warlock pick, Aggro Paladin was favored over the Midrange/Control Paladin, Mech Shaman over Midrange Shaman, Tempo/Mech over Freeze (though Freeze was still fairly prominent), Grim Patron over Control Warrior and of course Hunters really only play one way. The only class that was played as a Control class exclusively was Priest which was Kolento's all in anti aggro deck (which sucks ass against every thing else).
I guess it's fair to bring up that Druids are playing more ramp style now with Senjins and Ancient of Wars teched in to counter the aggro and Grim Patron. It has worked decently well I would say. They still run double combo though because you still gotta finish games fast the cheap way.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Yeah, I agree. I mean, they only added two board clears in GvG which are Lightbomb and Bouncing Blade and I'm not sure you could even call Bouncing Blade a board clear.
Some classes just need more options. Hell, Shaman is still relying on the piece of crap that is Lightning Storm. I understand Blizzard's hesitation to add really good, effective board clears as their priority has typically been to focus on minion based board control but eventually something has got to give.
LMAO @ Bouncing Blade being an AOE clear... AHAHAHAAAHHA!
Lightbomb is great though, love that card.
Since then they added Dark Iron Skulker, Demonwrath and Revenge.
I still maintain that Dark Iron Skulker is an amazing card (and in Arena is the BEST Rogue card by stats) and Revenge isn't all that bad either. But Dark Iron Skulker is in a class that plays a very fine tuned combo deck and Revenge is a bit redundant and more importantly too situational.
Demonwrath's problem is that the demon tag ends up working against you in the Warlock mirror. There's enough Demon Zoolock on ladder for this card to be dead weight. I still very much like this card but Hellfire is currently superior because 3 > 2 especially because Grim Patron is so prevalent at higher ranks. Maybe people will give this if/when Grim Patron gets a nerf.
Lightbomb is great though, love that card.
Since then they added Dark Iron Skulker, Demonwrath and Revenge.
I still maintain that Dark Iron Skulker is an amazing card (and in Arena is the BEST Rogue card by stats) and Revenge isn't all that bad either. But Dark Iron Skulker is in a class that plays a very fine tuned combo deck and Revenge is a bit redundant and more importantly too situational.
Demonwrath's problem is that the demon tag ends up working against you in the Warlock mirror. There's enough Demon Zoolock on ladder for this card to be dead weight. I still very much like this card but Hellfire is currently superior because 3 > 2 especially because Grim Patron is so prevalent at higher ranks. Maybe people will give this if/when Grim Patron gets a nerf.
Bullshit.
Not bad dude!
Some games you just aren't supposed to win regardless of matchup.
Putting a healbot in your decks help though
Depends the matchup really.
But I would like to remind you that at one point bots played aggro and was successful with it. It isn't the hardest deck to play.
Why is my win rate so much worse with control then?
Aggro decks don't necessarily play themselves, they do have thought behind them. You still need consistent skill to push the high ranks with it.
But control decks are harder to pilot for sure. Their games tend to be longer (longer games means more turns and plays which means more chance to make a mistake), their hand size tends to be bigger (which means more options and harder to figure out best play) and they have to take all 3 resources into account (card advantage, life totals and tempo). Handlock is the prime example of this where you have huge hands and huge swings in life gains/losses leading into potential huge tempo swings if you want to.
When players start out playing control decks they double down on defensive plays. They just play entirely reactive and thus their mentality is always "how not to lose this game". Flipping the script from losing to winning plays is a key element of playing control games.
There will be plays that are risky but you can set up a win in a couple of turns. You have to take into account the other player's options and then make the winning play. Sometimes playing that Emperor Thaurissan or Sylvanas over that Healbot is game winning even though you are facing down a tough board with low health.
But control decks are harder to pilot for sure. Their games tend to be longer (longer games means more turns and plays which means more chance to make a mistake), their hand size tends to be bigger (which means more options and harder to figure out best play) and they have to take all 3 resources into account (card advantage, life totals and tempo). Handlock is the prime example of this where you have huge hands and huge swings in life gains/losses leading into potential huge tempo swings if you want to.
When players start out playing control decks they double down on defensive plays. They just play entirely reactive and thus their mentality is always "how not to lose this game". Flipping the script from losing to winning plays is a key element of playing control games.
There will be plays that are risky but you can set up a win in a couple of turns. You have to take into account the other player's options and then make the winning play. Sometimes playing that Emperor Thaurissan or Sylvanas over that Healbot is game winning even though you are facing down a tough board with low health.
Which highlights the main problem right now: the ranking system SUUUUUCKS!
WesternHeretic
Member
Welcome to League of Legends.
Meta is 90% decided by what Korea decide to play in the LCK and the other 10% comes from China and the LPL. NA and EU LCS just copies that then average player just copies the NA/EU streamers.
Edit: Just won 2 in a row vs Patron! YEAAAAAA BUUUUUDY. Too bad that's never going to happen again.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Two Watch & Learn quests in the last week and nothing. Those 40 dust packs are even more painful when you aren't spending any gold and only get to open 1-2 packs a week lol.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
Amen. I did get lucky this week with a Alexstraza in my pack sad it was a dupe still 400 dust is 400 dust.
I am glad Brawl is a thing to get some sort of pack fix because it is hard to not break and buy a bunch of stuff.
I'm looking forward to actually dumping a lot of gold on new packs in bulk though. Want to see the first epic and legendary I pull(probably that shitty skeleton guy).
what rank are you?
You know lots of people actually watch those games. if the streamers go on like 10 loss streaks with a 10% overall winrate, people might not actually think the deck is good.
Officerrob
Banned
If those streamers had success with that deck, people would us it. That would likely mean the deck is pretty good though (at the very least)
FieryBalrog
Member
No, some random anecdotes don't really contradict his point.
It also depends on rank. He's describing the meta at higher ranks. People are generally going to favor faster decks to climb, other things bring equal.
Also if you only face Aggro, then that's good! It's easy to make a deck that crushes face decks. You still won't win every game obviously. Just play a pile of death lords, wild pyromancers, chows etc.
Randomizer123454444
Member
Combo decks. With introduction of joust mechanics, I suspect meta will slow down somewhat and help give combo decks time and space to execute these combos. Cards like Aviana and Varian will further popularise use of combo decks, enabling current ones to succeed better.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
So close to rank 5.
WesternHeretic
Member
God bless RNG gods.
I was down to 5 HP. The other guy had 7 HP and full board of silver recruits buff by quarter master with 4 cards in hand.
I had Owl + blessing of might and 9 mana. Top deck..... Divine Favor. Threw out the owl just because I can now draw 3 cards. 1st card = useless... 2nd card = useless... 3rd card = Arcane Golem. Which leaves me with 4 mana.... (owl (2) Divine favor (3)
Arcane Golem (3) + Blessing of Might (1) for the kill of exactly 7 hp and exactly 0 mana left.
I was down to 5 HP. The other guy had 7 HP and full board of silver recruits buff by quarter master with 4 cards in hand.
I had Owl + blessing of might and 9 mana. Top deck..... Divine Favor. Threw out the owl just because I can now draw 3 cards. 1st card = useless... 2nd card = useless... 3rd card = Arcane Golem. Which leaves me with 4 mana.... (owl (2) Divine favor (3)
Arcane Golem (3) + Blessing of Might (1) for the kill of exactly 7 hp and exactly 0 mana left.
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