BlackBuzzard
Banned
Rank 5 time to say goodbye to ladder for the rest of the month.
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Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Haha congrats, that's how I feel as well. What deck did you play?
Random anecdotes or not, the Hearthstats constructed ranking speaks its clear language.
And they show Hunter as the clear number one. And even Midrange hunter is more an aggro deck than true midgame.
Dropped an invite.
thanks
and now just win
Hopefully you got something good from the pack.
only the sweet smell of blue dust
BlackBuzzard
Banned
My own Paladin anti spell deck till 13, Dragon Mage till rank 9 and then Demon Lock till 5.
Blizzard did say rank will start being counted when patch launches so i either have to win 1 game or lose 1 i think.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
just watched that trump VOD((( it was so sad to watch. the nerf has to be coming soon
link?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAFCj61XBxw&feature=youtu.be&t=1h58m50s
That's when the match begins, you'll have to skip through if you don't want to see the beginning.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Working as intended!
Minsc
Gold Member
just watched that trump VOD
Warsong needs to only give minions charge while they have a 3 or less attack. No need for the deck to have any strategy when you can just hit for 50+ damage in one turn from a nearly empty board (on both sides). Even the Patrons aren't broken really, because you can only get 6 of them for 18 damage, plus buffs. The berserkers are the problem, getting a 20+ damage charge minion for free (30+ if your opponent was dumb enough to use minions against you) thanks to patrons filling up your board who also have charge is broken.
Also, killing creatures with weapons while drawing cards is hardly strategy imo. The card draw is pretty brainless, you play stuff and draw cards, and draw more cards, and draw more cards, while getting tons of armor and drawing cards... then you play the combo and win. I've seen them draw ~90% of their deck by turn 7 or 8 when the combo can happen.
I called bullshit on two accounts. The "aggro decks play themselves" and to the notion that control decks can't have opening hands/draws that guarantee wins. They can just as well as aggro decks. Let's say control warrior draws nothing but heal, 2 armorsmiths and whirlwind effects. No face deck can beat that.
That is disgusting.
Minsc is correct about the need for the charge to disappear when it goes over 3 attack.
Trump had the whole game to kill him, but typical control warrior, I just armor up and drop stuff one by one, which warrior class removals can deal with very easily.
Now if you fill the board fast, patron warrior can't do anything. Sjow was losing again and again to mech mages on his stream right after that match with that very same deck, cause he can't use his weapons and single removals take you so far.
Slow decks like that are punished by patron warrior as you give the the window to get everything, if you have your whole deck in front of you, you have an answer to everything, that goes for any deck.
Aggro decks keep patron in check, it's very hard to win against mech mage. Other garbage aggro decks relying on cheap tokens and similar though are also helpless against patron. It's a very good deck. Nothing is wrong with it. And it is hard to play it. you can start playing it and see for your self how often you win. It's not as simple as I draw cards and win. Every move is extremely important, more so than any other deck, there is like very little room for mistakes. If it was that easy and good to play every one would have played that on ladder but patrons actually aren't as popular as say midrange hunter and similar. There is significant skill gap and it needs a lot of practice and sometimes still you don't know what's right to do. Maybe play it for quite while first before saying how broken it is.
Now if you fill the board fast, patron warrior can't do anything. Sjow was losing again and again to mech mages on his stream right after that match with that very same deck, cause he can't use his weapons and single removals take you so far.
Slow decks like that are punished by patron warrior as you give the the window to get everything, if you have your whole deck in front of you, you have an answer to everything, that goes for any deck.
Aggro decks keep patron in check, it's very hard to win against mech mage. Other garbage aggro decks relying on cheap tokens and similar though are also helpless against patron. It's a very good deck. Nothing is wrong with it. And it is hard to play it. you can start playing it and see for your self how often you win. It's not as simple as I draw cards and win. Every move is extremely important, more so than any other deck, there is like very little room for mistakes. If it was that easy and good to play every one would have played that on ladder but patrons actually aren't as popular as say midrange hunter and similar. There is significant skill gap and it needs a lot of practice and sometimes still you don't know what's right to do. Maybe play it for quite while first before saying how broken it is.
crazygambit
Member
If that's true, then just add 2x Deathlord, 2x Zombie Chow, 2x Belcher and 2x Healbot and win 80% of your games against them.
Some guy coined a Deathlord on T2 I owled it, then he played another on T3, he then played Belcher on T5. I did not win as Face Hunter (though it was much closer than it had any business being, like I was like 5 damage away from lethal at one point).
As I've mentioned before, making a change like removing charge from minions with more than 3 health would not just knock the Patron deck down a peg, that would blow the deck up entirely. It would not go from #1 on the meta report to #5, or something -- it would go from #1 to not on the list anymore.
Maybe your goal is to nuke the deck from orbit, but I don't want to see that, because 1) it's a very difficult deck to play well and 2) it's a very peculiar, unique deck. I say this as someone who does not play Patron. The #2 deck on the meta report right now is ebolapaladin; it has achieved this ranking despite getting absolutely crushed by patron. If Patron went away, eboladin would go from #2 to #1 with a bullet (now that it's strongest counter is gone), and eboladin is a much less interesting deck that is far easier to play well.
Again, I'm not saying you can't hate Patron decks. I just want to think through what it means to change some critical component of the deck's win condition.
Maybe your goal is to nuke the deck from orbit, but I don't want to see that, because 1) it's a very difficult deck to play well and 2) it's a very peculiar, unique deck. I say this as someone who does not play Patron. The #2 deck on the meta report right now is ebolapaladin; it has achieved this ranking despite getting absolutely crushed by patron. If Patron went away, eboladin would go from #2 to #1 with a bullet (now that it's strongest counter is gone), and eboladin is a much less interesting deck that is far easier to play well.
Again, I'm not saying you can't hate Patron decks. I just want to think through what it means to change some critical component of the deck's win condition.
seriously. I can't believe how fucking aggro heavy the ladder is. just reached rank 5 as well, back to the sweet embrace of arena.
My personal opinion is to start by just making battle rage not draw a card off your face. I think nerfing the draw engine would hurt the deck considerably without destroying it, and would remove the really weird metagame in the middle where you choose not to attack patron decks because you don't want to give them the draw.
People see videos like that and think patron warrior always can pull off damage like, it's not even close that. That can happen with stupidly good draws, any deck wins like that then but even faster than patron warrior can possibly combo things. Here Sjow actually had abysmal draw, Emperor was at the bottom of his deck. That's like the worst case scenario for him but Trump didn't drop a significant threat the whole game so he felt very safe to draw everything instead of dealing with those. Maybe control warrior is just not very good here in this match up? It's too slow.
Average patron game is very interactive actually, good luck playing like that against zoo. You must win board control there or you lose very fast. It's more interactive than average control warrior game where they just armor up for two thirds of the match and then brawl if things not looking so good.
Average patron game is very interactive actually, good luck playing like that against zoo. You must win board control there or you lose very fast. It's more interactive than average control warrior game where they just armor up for two thirds of the match and then brawl if things not looking so good.
Haunted
Member
How about losing charge over 5 atk? (Inner Rage'd Patron). That still retains all the board control and damage from Patrons but removes the 0TK from Frothings at full/near full health.
Hm, I see what you're saying.
Battle Rage is already an extremely niche card in constructed. Getting two damaged minions to get value is an extremely high condition to meet for any deck that is not Patron. You're just nerfing Warrior in arena again.
As you said, the card is only used by patron to begin with, which is why nerfing it makes sense. The nerf would be entirely localized to Patron. I think your suggested nerf (making Commander a 3/2 instead of 2/3) is fine, too.
I would just want to start small with the nerfs and stay localized. Cards which are almost exclusively played by Patron and changes which don't kill the deck.
Do you feel that the warlock arcane golem decks are unfair? They can get 2x 12/10 chargers out in a single turn, even without Emperor. With emperor, they can get 3x 12/10 chargers.
I think the biggest difference is that the Warlock Arcane Golem deck (despite Warlocks' hero power) doesn't have the crazy draw engine that Patron has. If it took Patron decks longer to get to their combo on average, their win percentage would drop notably.
I think this is what makes Patron and Miracle Rogue unique in the history of "empty board suddenly charge your face with giant minions" decks; both Patron and Miracle Rogue could draw their decks incredibly quickly to get to the core cards they really need. Other similar decks are fine because they draw more slowly.
And as a test of my theory, if even just battlerage drew 2 fewer cards (because it doesn't draw off face), Sjow would still have been waiting on Emperor because Emperor was the second to last card in his deck. Give Trump 2 more turns to armor up -- even if nothing else changed, and the extra 2 cards trump drew were useless -- and he would have survived the onslaught. Alternatively, 2 more turns would have allowed Trump to drop boom and end the game.
Battle Rage doesn't come with the text "only usable by Patron Warrior". If there were ever the possibility that some other kind of Enrage/Self-Damage warrior were to emerge, which is an archetype that Blizzard has always tried to push (if not somewhat unsuccessfully), than nerfing Battle Rage would affect that deck as well. And as I said, that's a pretty significant hit to Warrior in arena.
Swapping the attack and health of Warsong Commander to a 3/2 only significantly hits any kind of enrage deck that can double whirlwind and generate additional more little dudes after the second whirlwind.procs. So that really only hurts Patron and... Dragon Egg.
I think Warsong commander is less localized than Battle Rage is. I can decks with e.g. Raging Wargen using Warsong Commander.
OTK Raging Worgen decks use Charge, not Warsong Commander. Plus you'd only need 1 whirlwind to active those, so Warsong Commander having only 2 health is a non-factor. And even if she DID die, the Raging Worgen would still have charge.
You're missing the point here, I think. You yourself called Battle Rage a "niche" card, which I agree with, and it's precisely why it can be nerfed with little collateral damage. I think Warsong commander is also a "niche" card, which is why I think tinkering with it is also fine.
If I had to think of which could potentially create other decks, I'd probably pick Warsong, I can imagine Warsong being used in other new decks more than I can Battle Rage, but it's close -- they're both "niche" cards.
Warsong isn't getting nerfed. If it did get nerfed Grim Patron decks would die since they lose their vast majority of kill potential in a deck that really has none otherwise.
Simply flooding the board with patrons only gets you so far. It also ruins Amani Berserker.
If you want patron to be played and REALLY mean it then make a nerf that doesn't cripple it.
A slight nerf to berserker dials it back but doesn't ruin it. It at least ensures no more 50 damage patron kills can happen.
Simply flooding the board with patrons only gets you so far. It also ruins Amani Berserker.
If you want patron to be played and REALLY mean it then make a nerf that doesn't cripple it.
A slight nerf to berserker dials it back but doesn't ruin it. It at least ensures no more 50 damage patron kills can happen.
If you ever need help I can provide some tips!
No it wouldn't
It would become the garbage tier gimmick deck most people expected back when Grim Patron was revealed
The deck would be deleted. It would still be played in the sense that there is some guy out there still playing miracle rogue.
You're suggesting changing Battle Rage from a niche card to a nearly unplayable one. I don't even think Patron Warrior would run Battle Rage if you made it draw one less card.
I agree with Opiate and Vivi. They should tweak the draw engine that patron warrior has but the combo itself is fine. Trump just lost a lot of gas because well that's what tend to happen in Warrior vs. Warrior matchups, they execute you big dudes and than your just hoping there isn't a lot of time between drawing the next one and for Trump he just didn't draw his other big dudes quick enough.
I like it.
Patron would absolutely play it. It's the core of their draw engine.
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