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[adamsapple]

Silksong's surprise release was "a little callous", says Hell is Us creative director

Hell is Us creative director Jonathan Jacques-Belletête called the surprise release of Hollow Knight: Silksong "a little callous".

www.eurogamer.net

"When you know you're that big, I think a shadow drop is a bit like – wow," said Jacques-Belletête on Skill Up's Friends Per Second podcast. "As the 'GTA 6 of indie'... to shadow drop something like this is a little callous."

After Team Cherry's announcement, the Hell is Us development team discussed with publisher Nacon whether to change the date. "It was a real thing," said Jacques-Belletête.

However, the "real pain in the ass", Jacques-Belletête explained, is that changing release date means refunding pre-orders. And while that wasn't a deciding factor, the team believed they could weather the storm.

Still, Jacques-Belletête admitted Silksong's release did impact the launch of Hell is Us. "I don't have any specific numbers,"he said, "at least not at this time. But for sure it did."

Above all, Jacques-Belletête highlighted the difficulties of finding an appropriate release window in the current climate.

"That's the thing nowadays, honestly – getting a window where you're pretty much alone is almost impossible," he said. "15 years ago, the mid-end of the summer was always a dead period. But there's no such thing anymore. It's just constant madness."

 

[adamsapple]

"As the 'GTA 6 of indie'... to shadow drop something like this is a little callous."

Did they really steal my GAF quote ?

 

[saintjules]

I mean to be fair, two weeks notice isn't exactly a shadowdrop. But I get it.

 

[FinalBossWithTheMostPower]

Ruh-Roh!

 

[freemandos]

Did they really steal my GAF quote ?

Stealing from Neogaf is like a religion for a loooong time.

 

[deriks]

 

[Kuranghi]

Yeah he's jealous because his game has 6 enemy types vs the 600 in Silksong

 

[Loomy]

Uh no lol. If they were published by the same company, yeah. Give your publisher a heads up and they can give their studios a heads up.

Team Cherry is under no obligation to give anyone any kind of advanced warning that they're dropping.

I get why he's upset from the perspective of what it meant for them, but to call it "callous" and be that publicly bitter over it is...something lol

 

[Nocty]

sorry but lmao, Silksong is $20 and is infinitely better game than Hell is us. Thank god he had the balls to put out a demo so I avoided losing my money on it.

I really don't understand why you would post a salty comment like this and not just applaud Team Cherry for their success. The industry needs MORE shadowdropping, more time taken on games, less ballsmacking and publisher knob polishing to meet unrealistic release dates and unfinished products to please shareholders.

 

[Skifi28]

Did they really steal my GAF quote ?

 

[saintjules]

Yeah he's jealous because his game has 6 enemy types vs the 600 in Silksong

I don't think that was necessarily a con imo for Hell is Us. The enemy encounters at times feel different with each one.

 

[calico]

This has all the hallmarks of a skill issue.

 

[Scrawnton]

Make a better game. Sorry.

 

[Nocty]

Make a better game. Sorry.

I mean this is literally it.

I am creasing with laughter in this thread already, GAF has no empathy for mediocrity.

These fucking guys want $80 for absolute 5/10 seen it all before territory. The steam reviews alone say everything you need to know, and the demo seals the coffin.

 

[cripterion]

I don't give a shit about Silksong but I'm all for shadow drops / surprise game releases.

Also don't understand why he feels threatened, are these two games even remotely the same? Even if they did, just make a good game that's all there is to it.

 

[adamsapple]

Make a better game. Sorry.

I mean this is literally it.

ehh I dunno, I really liked my time with Hell is Us. An entry-level friendly 'souls-like' experience.

 

[Hugare]

Did they really steal my GAF quote ?

Oh, for sure you were the only one to reach that conclusion

Hell is Us was too weird for it to sell well. It had bomba written all over it.

Sadly, 'cause they are some talented devs, but I had to force myself to even finish the demo. It was like a weird arthouse movie.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

It's competition. Are we this fucking lost as an industry?

 

[Nocty]

ehh I dunno, I really liked my time with Hell is Us. An entry-level friendly 'souls-like' experience.

Games are subjective and I am happy for you mate

I personally have less money and I'm not going to drop $80 on Hell is Us when something of the quality of Silksong thats right in my crack without lube for twenty bucks. This salty dev in the OP is tripping balls

 

[mckmas8808]

Uh no lol. If they were published by the same company, yeah. Give your publisher a heads up and they can give their studios a heads up.

Team Cherry is under no obligation to give anyone any kind of advanced warning that they're dropping.

I get why he's upset from the perspective of what it meant for them, but to call it "callous" and be that publicly bitter over it is...something lol

Yes, this is something you say in a private company meeting to other executives. Not the media.

 

[Hero of Spielberg]

'Callous' … seriously?

 

[Scrawnton]

It's competition. Are we this fucking lost as an industry?

Participation trophy mentality. Being in a State of Play doesn't mean you deserve success.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Dude realized his game isn't selling as much as he wanted to and, instead of reflecting and trying to find an actual explanation for that, he opted for the usual "cope and seethe" we see so much nowadays.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I personally have less money and I'm not going to drop $80 on Hell is Us when something of the quality of Silksong thats right in my crack without lube for twenty bucks. This salty dev in the OP is tripping balls

I mean it's a tough choice between $50 Souls game and both Team Cherry content filled Metroidvania's totaling the unaffordable price of $35.

TintoConCasera Unironically by complaining about Silksong....Silksong is giving Hell Is Us some exposure much like the other Indies that postponed their date. Of which I bought Faeland which is also only $20 but so far is quite fun since it's Zelda 2/CV2 meets Golden Sun.

 

[Arsic]

Bro I opted for Cronos then silksong. Yes I played your demo too.

Silksong didn't effect shit brosef. Reviews and impressions all state your combat and enemy variety was meh. Your demo was also very meh. Full price is a tall ask man.

If this launch $40? Shit then some actually debating for my wallet would've taken place.

As is you were always a title folks were waiting for a sale on, and for all the reasons you are clearly aware of. September is swamped. Even without silksong you should've delayed.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Faeland

How's that one? Apparently I put it on my wishlist some time ago but had forgotten about it, and seeing some screenshots it seems to go for that grounded medieval aesthetic I love so much.

 

[Nocty]

I mean it's a tough choice between $50 Souls game and both Team Cherry content filled Metroidvania's totaling the unaffordable price of $35.

TintoConCasera Unironically by complaining about Silksong....Silksong is giving Hell Is Us some exposure much like the other Indies that postponed their date. Of which I bought Faeland which is also only $20 but so far is quite fun since it's Zelda 2/CV2 meets Golden Sun.

exactly my point

I would wager this shitty game is going to be in the halloween steam sale for 50% off or more. Guranteed.

Here is the thing - if you showed me a random collection of screenshots from Hell is us in 5 years time I wouldnt be able to tell you what game it was from the other absolutely mass produced generic shit we get on a monthly basis nowadays, but Silksong will be instantly recognisable for 20+ years from now likely with high daily players on Steam.

Game devs often suffer from Dunning Kruger, it's tragic. I also can gurantee the budget blown on Hell is us was vastly larger than SIlksong and it will probably not break even. They need to learn a lesson to make unique games and not just copy mechanics from other games over and over again for full AAA asking price

 

[MagiusNecros]

How's that one? Apparently I put it on my wishlist some time ago but had forgotten about it, and seeing some screenshots it seems to go for that grounded medieval aesthetic I love so much.

Feels like Zelda 2 meets Golden Sun since it focuses on exploring and finding a item or ability to progress and focuses more on puzzle platforming and the music and artstyle reminds me of Golden Sun. I think the music does it for me. Lots of wind instruments. Primarily flutes.

It still is missing it's 1.0 update that was postponed because of Silksong(actually was an copout excuse for the dev to do more stuff) but 5 chapters of game out of 6.

I really like the aesthetic.

 

[TintoConCasera]

MagiusNecros sounds neat, right up my alley. Would love to play it but I'm still with Silksong, haven't had a lot of time to play it.

 

[Buggy Loop]

It is a shit move by Team Cherry for other devs. Look, I am playing it right now, but let's not forget also the fuckup with no preorders, no preload, 2 weeks notice for projects that were planned to release on that day for over a year. They've been radio silent for the longest fucking time and they couldn't think of a date to give until 2 weeks before release really?

Imagine you worked your ass off to make a game, a new franchise that needs a bit of all the spotlight it can get, you think you have a nice release window and BAM, the game fans have been meme waiting for since SEVEN YEARS is almost effectively shadow dropped with 2 weeks notice.

I would be pissed too.

 

[MagiusNecros]

MagiusNecros sounds neat, right up my alley. Would love to play it but I'm still with Silksong, haven't had a lot of time to play it.

I'm flip flopping between a few games throughout the week. Silksong will take me a while as well. Game is huge. It probably makes Hell Is Us look small in comparison.

 

[Buggy Loop]

exactly my point

I would wager this shitty game is going to be in the halloween steam sale for 50% off or more. Guranteed.

Here is the thing - if you showed me a random collection of screenshots from Hell is us in 5 years time I wouldnt be able to tell you what game it was from the other absolutely mass produced generic shit we get on a monthly basis nowadays, but Silksong will be instantly recognisable for 20+ years from now likely with high daily players on Steam.

Game devs often suffer from Dunning Kruger, it's tragic. I also can gurantee the budget blown on Hell is us was vastly larger than SIlksong and it will probably not break even. They need to learn a lesson to make unique games and not just copy mechanics from other games over and over again for full AAA asking price

Are you serious?

Hell is us is made by ~50 peoples give or take. They'll be fine. These are made by a bunch of ex-Eidos Deus ex team who wanted to make a passionate game and you talk shit to them like they're fucking ubisoft or something? They need to make a lesson to make unique games? I'm sorry what game is like Hell is us with the exploration, adult themes and puzzles? Gonzito can you think of one?

But another Metroidvania.. oh yea, that's totally unique, never seen that before, a sequel even, wowowowweeee

 

[HJuggernaut]

why are the french so constantly whiny?

 

[TintoConCasera]

It is a shit move by Team Cherry for other devs.

Man, it is their game. They can release it whenever and however they want.

"A shit move to other devs" doesn't even make sense. They aren't friends, they are the compentency. Should I feel bad for the devs of the games that sell jack shit? Because what I feel is that they should have made a better game instead.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Man, it is their game. They can release it whenever and however they want.

"A shit move to other devs" doesn't even make sense. They aren't friends, they are the compentency.

Even huge corporations don't even do that, so among indies? I mean it is a shit move.

Imagine if Rockstar kept silence on release date and shadow dropped in the middle of a busy month in gaming? You really think everyone at every studios would not fucking curse them?

Of course they don't have to announce anything, still a dick move.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Even huge corporations don't even do that, so among indies? I mean it is a shit move.

Imagine if Rockstar kept silence on release date and shadow dropped in the middle of a busy month in gaming? You really think everyone at every studios would not fucking curse them?

Of course they don't have to announce anything, still a dick move.

I understand your point, but I'd still like to reafirm mine: it's not a shit move to shit on your competition. That's all what a free market is about.

Nobody is going to make less just so others can make a bit more. They aren't friends, they don't owe anything to each other.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Even huge corporations don't even do that, so among indies? I mean it is a shit move.

Imagine if Rockstar kept silence on release date and shadow dropped in the middle of a busy month in gaming? You really think everyone at every studios would not fucking curse them?

Of course they don't have to announce anything, still a dick move.

Dat dere Oblivion Remaster shadowdrop tho

 

[Buggy Loop]

Dat dere Oblivion Remaster shadowdrop tho

That too is a shit move

Flabbergasting even considering Microsoft had expedition 33 on fucking gamepass. I also called that move a stupid fucking one when it was announced.

Thankfully word of mouth and Oblivion sucking ass in performances helped Expedition 33

I understand your point, but I'd still like to reafirm mine: it's not a shit move to shit on your competition. That's all what a free market is about.

Nobody is going to make less just so others can make a bit more. They aren't friends, they don't owe anything to each other.

Not a shit move to shit on your competition...

I mean if you want to say Team cherry could do it, well yes, duh, they actually did.

Its also ok for other devs being in the storm to say they think its insensitive.

I really don't think Team cherry here made a move to hurt devs nor is it ever their intention to hurt others, I think the guy is clearly borderline autistic and never thought about it. I mean look, they were apparently fucking oblivious they were the #1 most wishlisted game on Steam, no preorder, no preload? The guy might as well be the equivalent of living in a vault with no contact to the outside world.

 

[LordCBH]

#dealwithit

 

[TintoConCasera]

Not a shit move to shit on your competition...

Haha yeah. No prizes for participating, it's a jungle out there man!

they were apparently fucking oblivious they were the #1

I believe they knew the game was hyped to hell and back and people would buy it no matter what.

Kinda similar case with the Oblivion shadowdrop, they played the nostalgia-bait card and it paid off.

 

[mdkirby]

No shit

 

[Zuzu]

Metal Gear Solid Delta and Cronos also released around the same time and are similarish games in a very broad sense since they're both 3rd person action-type games like Hell Is Us (though the three games are very different). Those games could have also taken some sales away from Hell Is Us. Not sure if Silksong really took away too many sales from Hell Is Us. If a customer was in the market to spend that type of money on Hell Is Us then would buying Silksong really stop them from buying that game if they wanted it as well? Wouldn't most people just buy both games since Silksong is cheap?

 

[Miyazaki’s Slave]

Personally silk song got a higher score from me because of the way they released the game.

100% gave zero fucks about the MSRP, marketing, or release date. That is a game developers wet dream, actually I don't have words for how awesome that would be.

 

[Buggy Loop]

Haha yeah. No prizes for participating, it's a jungle out there man!

I still don't see the gain to hurt another indie dev by removing the spotlight like a black hole in the schedule when everyone can coexist and do well. What the fuck is this? You think this is hunger game? Only a winner at the end? Had they warned way before the game release date, Rogue factor would have just fucking moved it to another time, that's it!

Thinking that Team Cherry didn't want to say anything to hurt other devs is fucking psychopath shit dude. I don't think I would even give them that kind of premeditation, the guy seem oblivious in an almost Forest Gump kind of way.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I really don't think Team cherry here made a move to hurt devs nor is it ever their intention to hurt others, I think the guy is clearly borderline autistic and never thought about it. I mean look, they were apparently fucking oblivious they were the #1 most wishlisted game on Steam, no preorder, no preload? The guy might as well be the equivalent of living in a vault with no contact to the outside world.

I see TC's move with Silksong a bit differently. They knew it was sought after. And they also took their time with it and released it at a very low price. No preorders. No reviews. No real marketing campaign at all.

It was bought with no manipulation from outside sources and shined a very ugly light on the Industry as a whole.

That speaks volumes of how much faith Team Cherry put into their game.

In addition it also shows that they set a low price so as many people as possible can play their game that they want to share with the world.

And it also demonstrates the amount of care a few talented people put into 8 years versus a lot of other devs who offer in contrast very mediocre to average games in the same timeframe.

 

[TintoConCasera]

I still don't see the gain to hurt another indie dev by removing the spotlight like a black hole in the schedule when everyone can coexist and do well. What the fuck is this? You think this is hunger game? Only a winner at the end? Had they warned way before the game release date, Rogue factor would have just fucking moved it to another time, that's it!

People's money aren't infinite. There's a cake so to speak, and the smaller the competition's portion is, the bigger yours will.

I know it sounds bad, but it is what it is man. As I said before, no one is going to willingly sell less just so others can sell a bit more.

Thinking that Team Cherry didn't want to say anything to hurt other devs is fucking psychopath shit dude. I don't think I would even give them that kind of premeditation, the guy seem oblivious in an almost Forest Gump kind of way.

I don't know why they chose to do things the way they did. Could be taking adventage of their position and hype for their game, could be the dudes being clueless, who knows.

Point is, no one has the right to blame anyone else about how they decide to sell their product.

 

[Loomy]

It is a shit move by Team Cherry for other devs. Look, I am playing it right now, but let's not forget also the fuckup with no preorders, no preload, 2 weeks notice for projects that were planned to release on that day for over a year. They've been radio silent for the longest fucking time and they couldn't think of a date to give until 2 weeks before release really?

Imagine you worked your ass off to make a game, a new franchise that needs a bit of all the spotlight it can get, you think you have a nice release window and BAM, the game fans have been meme waiting for since SEVEN YEARS is almost effectively shadow dropped with 2 weeks notice.

I would be pissed too.

"Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong"
- Some Jedi, In a galaxy far, far away.

He has every right to be pissed. But to think Team Cherry - or any other studio - owes him or anyone else any kind of release window is just childish. No preorders, no preload is not a fuckup. Neither or those things are required for a game release. All they're worried about is their release and that it works for their team. They're under absolutely zero obligation to take other studios release under consideration.

 

[Buggy Loop]

I see TC's move with Silksong a bit differently. They knew it was sought after. And they also took their time with it and released it at a very low price. No preorders. No reviews. No real marketing campaign at all.

It was bought with no manipulation from outside sources and shined a very ugly light on the Industry as a whole.

That speaks volumes of how much faith Team Cherry put into their game.

In addition it also shows that they set a low price so as many people as possible can play their game that they want to share with the world.

And it also demonstrates the amount of care a few talented people put into 8 years versus a lot of other devs who offer in contrast very mediocre to average games in the same timeframe.

I have nothing but respect in their pricing and craftmanship, I am playing it right now over Hell is Us even though I bought the game.

Setting a tentative date 6 months ahead should have been easy peasy. Let devs take the decision to move away or not. Going with the narrative that they wanted to hurt other devs, I don't think so, insensitive or out of touch might be a better fit. Tinto here is going for spanish inquisition mode or something.

Just like Expedition 33 or Silksong, yes there's "good lessons" here but it wouldn't have made Hell is Us any less worthwhile imo had it released in November. Time passes, peoples make choices to play it or not, but Silksong is definitely a GTA 6 of indies, a black hole stealing the spotlight and came in with no warnings. I don't care about arguing they "can" do it, other devs can also look at it and say it's a bit of a shit move.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It very much was/is a black hole. Especially with the massive following Hollow Knight has. Other releases may as well be cars getting sideswept by a speeding Semi Truck.

So I'd imagine a lot of devs pushing for a September release window will be quite upset and either bite the bullet or readjust.

 

[lughnasadh123]

Aside as a means to embrace that 'fuck you" energy - why not give the courtesy of a at least a target date they're shooting for to allow others to readjust their own schedule?

No, TC isn't obligated to do so. Nor is it about other companies making better products. It just would have been a polite gesture to extend to others. I certainly don't see the downside of it.