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[gofreak]

All kids can already go to college, low-high rated) if they wanted through outright paying, financial aid, scholarships, and/or etc. What you are talking about is equal education for all. It's a simple fact that not all colleges are created equal. This is the same every and the US is no exception. Just to throw out an random example, look at Oxford in England. Most colleges in England would be consider "below" Oxford standard, but does it mean the education is crap then?

Yes, and indeed, there are some colleges where I am that would be viewed more highly than others. The difference being, where I am, the smarter "poor" kid would be looked at before the average rich kid, for entry to the more presitgious colleges. We provide entry into college based on ability, not money...so it's not equal in the pure sense, but I do think it's fairer to judge based on your ability, rather than your bank balance. And yes, you do have scholarships..my point is, not every smart poor kid is going to get one. Some will miss out, where they shouldn't, considering the calibur of some richer students does not match their own.

Also, in a system without private fees, all colleges would get equal funding relative to their student numbers..whereas where you are, I am guessing the public universities don't have as much cash to throw about as the private ones. Thus, the chances of them ever catching up are decreased.

Also, if what Sirpopopop is saying is correct..well, there are still relatively big barriers to entry even if you aren't going to a private university.

 

[Guileless]

In a stunning upset, "stupid" Americans have created the largest economy in history, the most powerful military in history, and the most pervasive global culture in history.

Seriously though, you shouldn't form an opinion of "Americans" based on some of the less noble aspects of our popular culture or the opinions of holier-than-thou Europeans and Canadians who use the "stupid" excuse to make themselves feel better about being dominated by an external force. Now you can call us arrogant, self-centered, and enormously profligate consumers of the world's resources and be on better footing. I would agree with all of those statements, and I bet I really would agree if I had happened to have been born somewhere else.

 

[myzhi]

Yes, and indeed, there are some colleges where I am that would be viewed more highly than others. The difference being, where I am, the smarter "poor" kid would be looked at before the average rich kid, for entry to the more presitgious colleges. We provide entry into college based on ability, not money...so it's not equal in the pure sense, but I do think it's fairer to judge based on your ability, rather than your bank balance. And yes, you do have scholarships..my point is, not every smart poor kid is going to get one. Some will miss out, where they shouldn't, considering the calibur of some richer students does not match their own.

Also, in a system without private fees, all colleges would get equal funding relative to their student numbers..whereas where you are, I am guessing the public universities don't have as much cash to throw about as the private ones. Thus, the chances of them ever catching up are decreased.

Also, if what Sirpopopop is saying is correct..well, there are still relatively big barriers to entry even if you aren't going to a private university.

Unfortunately, you are talking about a "perfect" world while I am talking about real life. Take my example, you think only smart kids get into Oxford unversity? What about Hong Kong's only 1 major unversity? Are you piss off that a rich kid gets to drive a Porsche while you have a crappy Ford? You want the government you pay for your Porsche? Keep dreaming.


Do you understand how much money it's going to cost for equal funding? The better rated private unversities average $ 1-2 million per faculty compare with $100-200 thousand for high rated public unversitiesl. Now, times that by hundreds of colleges, and I don't think even the "Great" USA can afford that. Right now you are probably thinking, why not hold down wages. The problem with that is "great" minds will go somewhere else to teach. That's one of the reason lots of "great" minds comes to America.

 

[gofreak]

In a stunning upset, "stupid" Americans have created the largest economy in history, the most powerful military in history, and the most pervasive global culture in history.

Seriously though, you shouldn't form an opinion of "Americans" based on some of the less noble aspects of our popular culture or the opinions of holier-than-thou Europeans and Canadians who use the "stupid" excuse to make themselves feel better about being dominated by an external force. Now you can call us arrogant, self-centered, and enormously profligate consumers of the world's resources and be on better footing. I would agree with all of those statements, and I bet I really would agree if I had happened to have been born somewhere else.

I agree with all of this; I think the "stupid" perception comes from the fact that the more ignorant among you get more attention than the smart..as has been said many times already in this thread, the "stupid" people make far more noise, and it's a lot of what the outside world hears from America.

 

[gofreak]

Unfortunately, you are talking about a "perfect" world while I am talking about real life. Take my example, you think only smart kids get into Oxford unversity? What about Hong Kong's only 1 major unversity? Keep dreaming.

I don't know exactly how either the UK or Chinese systems work. I do know that where I live, if you outperform your peers academically, you will get picked over them regardless of what universities you apply to, even the most prestigious. There are no fees (well, there is a registration fee, but that's small..there are no tutor fees etc. the government pays those).

By your calculations, I'm thinking the total would be a few billion? The US spent, what, 400 billion on the military in 2003? It seems cheap enough to me, unless my calculations are WAY off.

 

[All Hail C-Webb]

In a stunning upset, "stupid" Americans have created the largest economy in history, the most powerful military in history, and the most pervasive global culture in history.

Seriously though, you shouldn't form an opinion of "Americans" based on some of the less noble aspects of our popular culture or the opinions of holier-than-thou Europeans and Canadians who use the "stupid" excuse to make themselves feel better about being dominated by an external force. Now you can call us arrogant, self-centered, and enormously profligate consumers of the world's resources and be on better footing. I would agree with all of those statements, and I bet I really would agree if I had happened to have been born somewhere else.

Close this thread. You have your answer.

 

[mjq jazz bar]

This is pretty much how I feel, except for one small difference... I think the US should stop babysitting 3rd world countries... they're not our problem.

No one could ever sucessfully invade the US. Why should we care about outsiders?

I sometimes wonder why certain groups are up in arms about the US supporting countries like Sudan, when they're the same people who complain when the US steps in to help other nations. Why doesn't someone complain to another country?

 

[sprsk]

As someone who lives in the south i have to say, america is mostly stupid.

 

[norinrad21]

As someone who lives in the south i have to say, america is mostly stupid.

If you don't like NASCARRRRRRRRRRRR just move out

 

[myzhi]

I don't know exactly how either the UK or Chinese systems work. I do know that where I live, if you outperform your peers academically, you will get picked over them regardless of what universities you apply to, even the most prestigious. There are no fees (well, there is a registration fee, but that's small..there are no tutor fees etc. the government pays those).

By your calculations, I'm thinking the total would be a few billion? The US spent, what, 400 billion on the military in 2003? It seems cheap enough to me, unless my calculations are WAY off.

So, you are telling everyone that in your country people get into schools based on just grades? Social status, money, who you know, and/or etc. has nothing to do with it?


A few billion? Lets do a rough generalization. 200 faculty per unversity at 1 mill. each, 10,000 students at cost of $10,000 per, and 800 colleges. That comes out to be $1.7 Trillion. Yeah, we can afford that by cutting defense budget.

 

[AssMan]

we just dont care

I wouldn't go THAT far. America contributes millions of dollars to countries around the world.

 

[norinrad21]

I wouldn't go THAT far. America contributes millions of dollars to countries around the world.

To help corrupted Governments wage war on their own people as long as America gets its constant flow of that country's natural resources

 

[All Hail C-Webb]

As someone who lives in the south i have to say, america is mostly stupid.

This may make me seem ignorant, but I feel that the "coasts" are the only part of the US that matter (when judging the country). NYC is really the best place to judge if you are trying to compare the US to other countires.
If you watch a show like Jerry Springer, you're going to find your share of idiots, but there's nothing wrong with that. These people are farmers, and retail clerks, they don't need to have phd's. We don't have idiots running our economy, or anything else that matters (you can make an argument about our President, but with the exception of foreign policy, the country has done very well under him), and that's why we are so prosperous. We have the occasional idiot running around on TV, but that's where they belong. They are in no way a representation of the US.
People outside the US can complain all they want, but I doubt that many people who live here are going to complain about their quality of life.

I've spoken to homeless people in New York, and they are (with a few exceptions) more intelligent, and better spoken than most people you see on TV. You can't jusge unless you live here.

 

[Che]

In a stunning upset, "stupid" Americans have created the largest economy in history, the most powerful military in history, and the most pervasive global culture in history.

Seriously though, you shouldn't form an opinion of "Americans" based on some of the less noble aspects of our popular culture or the opinions of holier-than-thou Europeans and Canadians who use the "stupid" excuse to make themselves feel better about being dominated by an external force. Now you can call us arrogant, self-centered, and enormously profligate consumers of the world's resources and be on better footing. I would agree with all of those statements, and I bet I really would agree if I had happened to have been born somewhere else.

Ummm the only reason US economy evolved that way was the exploitation of the poor (which continues) and slavery of the blacks. So you shouldn't really be proud of this. Also by being enthusiastic for your war industry is just pure stupidity. Thoughout history even the stupidiest nations with no culture had great armies. Great arguments man.

PS. Nice try there trying to blame only Europeans and Canadians. Oh well I guess the Japanese like you or let's talk about the Chinese or the muslim nations or the Russians. They all love USA don't they? Did I forget anyone?

 

[dark10x]

Ummm the only reason US economy evolved that way was the exploitation of the poor (which continues) and slavery of the blacks. So you shouldn't really be proud of this. Also by being enthusiastic for your war industry is just pure stupidity. Thoughout history even the stupidiest nations with no culture had great armies. Great arguments man.

PS. Nice try there trying to blame only Europeans and Canadians. Oh well I guess the Japanese like you or let's talk about the Chinese or the muslim nations or the Russians. They all love USA don't they? Did I forget anyone?

Che, where might you be from?

 

[Che]

Che, where might you be from?

Greece, why?

 

[=W=]

Well, I don't know about the rest of the country, but I know all too well that I'm an idiot.

 

[Lathentar]

To help corrupted Governments wage war on their own people as long as America gets its constant flow of that country's natural resources

You think America is going to help other countries without expecting anything in return? Thats like spending money to decorate your toilet, sure it may look nicer but you're still throwing money into the shitter. America could easily just divert all that money to the economy, military, etc...

 

[Che]

Well, I don't know about the rest of the country, but I know all too well that I'm an idiot.

 

[Lathentar]

Ummm the only reason US economy evolved that way was the exploitation of the poor (which continues) and slavery of the blacks.

Those crazy black slaves helping us develop vehicles, nuclear power/weapons, and the silicion revolution. It was all just cotton that got us to where we are.

 

[AirBrian]

Agreed, but as a child, looking forward into your future, you should be not be hobbled by financial status. It's not fair if a brighter person misses out on opportunities later to more average peers because he or she didn't go to a prestigious private institution. It's good if public colleges are beginning to redress the balance though.

Very true. But there are ways to overcome this. If a poor student actually does well in school, it's not as hard as it sounds to get in. Most universities will accept anyone in the top 10% of their class regardless of SAT scores, income, or race. Also, student loans (and grants, scholarship, etc.) are available to those who need the help. The problem is that most do not attempt to apply for help. Most don't even ask or know where/who/how to ask for help.

One thing I've always wondered is: what would happen if a small fraction of the US military budget was redirected in order to abolish fees? The US could probably pay for all its kids to go to college for free and maintain the status quo with regard to tax, if it was so inclined. Sure, at the moment the US is stretched militarily, but the spending on defense is just extraordinarily high.

It would take more than that. But at the same time, defense is a major catalyst for our economy. Defense contracts employ literally entire towns and also drive the technology sector. The defense isn't just about going and taking over countries as some make it out to be.

 

[dark10x]

Greece, why?

Heh heh.

 

[ManDudeChild]

I think the question we should really be asking is: How's the weed up there in Canada?

Yesterday at Ozzfest, I met some Canadian dude and he had some shit weed. Come on, man, what's that aboot?

My best guess would be that he's not from B.C. We have the best weed on the planet.

{Edit: Doh' too late. Someone already said it}

 

[Tabris]

America is just a big joke to people around here.

Any respect (wasn't much to begin with) most Canadians had for America was lost in the last 3 years.

 

[Wolfy]

Oh.

 

[teh_pwn]

I think this subject is extremely ignorant.

I think part of the reason why some view Americans as dumb is because we have such a high standard of education, that we force pretty much everyone to take standardized tests. Other nations weed people out early on and send them straight to Walmart for work. So we have a large part of our scores based on people that don't give a damn, and won't study. Other nations have the brightest.

 

[norinrad21]

You think America is going to help other countries without expecting anything in return? Thats like spending money to decorate your toilet, sure it may look nicer but you're still throwing money into the shitter. America could easily just divert all that money to the economy, military, etc...

Well the dude said it like pumping millions of dollars into another country's economy was a good thing. His post sounded like America was giving out that kind of money for charity

 

[Wolfy]

because we have such a high standard of education

I disagree, I think our standards in the public education sector are very low.

 

[dark10x]

I disagree, I think our standards in the public education sector are very low.

Yeah. I attended a private school, but most of the public schools around here just aren't very good. While all of the main private schools around here score very well on various tests, the public schools don't even BEGIN to compare. THAT'S a problem...

 

[gofreak]

So, you are telling everyone that in your country people get into schools based on just grades? Social status, money, who you know, and/or etc. has nothing to do with it?

Minus the registration fee, which is relatively small (like, $500 a year or so), and affordable to all but the most poor (who'd get a scholarship anyway if they really wanted to get in), it is entirely based on grades. We have final exams in secondary school, and based on your grades, you are awarded points. You need a certain number of points to get into a course - the number is determined by demand for the course. You can't buy, or charm your way ahead of other people. There are no interviews, where you can schmooze the college president and drop names. You are pretty much completely anonymous until you are selected. Indeed, the whole distribution of places is handled by one independent authority.

You have 200 faculties per university? Just to be sure we mean the same thing..a faculty is a department within the college, right? My college has like, 10 or so faculties. I based my calculation on 10 faculties per college, and didn't count the per-student costs since we didn't talk about them before I also took a "few hundred" to mean about 4 hundred (800 would be more like "several" hundred ). Why would one student cost 10k a year? FYI, our government doesn't pay for books etc. etc.

 

[dark10x]

So, you are telling everyone that in your country people get into schools based on just grades? Social status, money, who you know, and/or etc. has nothing to do with it?

In a word. Yes!

While money, status, etc. certainly can HELP you, it really comes down to grades. Those other aspects generally only apply to select cases and are far from the norm. Good grades combined with those extras certainly is a powerful tool, but if your grades are good, you'll likely be accepted.

 

[Azih]

See, a good education vs a crappy one isn't the same thing as a Porsche vs a second hand Ford.

The second is a luxury and the first really shouldn't be. ANY education system in which publicly funded schools are worse than private ones, and in which being a rich kid means you get a better class of education is EXTREMELY broken.

 

[dark10x]

See, a good education vs a crappy one isn't the same thing as a Porsche vs a second hand Ford.

The second is a luxury and the first really shouldn't be. ANY education system in which publicly funded schools are worse than private ones, and in which being a rich kid means you get a better class of education is EXTREMELY broken.

Yeah, but what IS the solution? A lot of parents simply don't care about their kids enough to ensure that they perform well in school, so those who WANT to learn but can't afford private schools suffer as a result. You can change up the school system all you want, but when you have a classroom full of assheads who don't WANT to learn, it really ruins things for everyone. I am shocked at how many parents these days just don't give a shit.

It is broken, but it is a very difficult problem to address...

Not ALL public schools are bad, either. It varies by area.

 

[Azih]

Sure dark10x, I'm talking about generally. Hell I don't know what the solution is, but where I'm at there's a very limited amount of private schools so all kids whether rich or poor go into the same system. Of course the public schools in the more affluent parts are nicer than the ones in the more rundown parts (since the richer areas can have fundraising drives and stuff) but at least it's the same system.

And of course in Canada the number of private colleges/universities is very very low and the best schools are the public ones in any case. The University of Toronto for example is the biggest in Canada and has one of the best reputations and tuition costs about 6000 bucks a year (Canadian). And this is MUCH higher than the national average because the province of Ontario are complete asshats when it comes to funding education.

 

[ItalianStallion]

My best guess would be that he's not from B.C. We have the best weed on the planet.

{Edit: Doh' too late. Someone already said it}

The best weed, you say? Wanna send me some?

 

[Guileless]

Thoughout history even the stupidiest nations with no culture had great armies.

Well said, which brilliant historian did you steal that from? I'm still disappointed you didn't "have time" to explain your absurd conspiracy theories in the thread about the handover of Iraqi soverignty. Do you have time now? As a member of one of history's "stupidest nations with no culture" I could use some enlightenment.

 

[myzhi]

Minus the registration fee, which is relatively small (like, $500 a year or so), and affordable to all but the most poor (who'd get a scholarship anyway if they really wanted to get in), it is entirely based on grades. We have final exams in secondary school, and based on your grades, you are awarded points. You need a certain number of points to get into a course - the number is determined by demand for the course. You can't buy, or charm your way ahead of other people. There are no interviews, where you can schmooze the college president and drop names. You are pretty much completely anonymous until you are selected. Indeed, the whole distribution of places is handled by one independent authority.

You have 200 faculties per university? Just to be sure we mean the same thing..a faculty is a department within the college, right? My college has like, 10 or so faculties. I based my calculation on 10 faculties per college, and didn't count the per-student costs since we didn't talk about them before I also took a "few hundred" to mean about 4 hundred (800 would be more like "several" hundred ). Why would one student cost 10k a year? FYI, our government doesn't pay for books etc. etc.

What country do you live in? Nobody knows who the "independent" authority is? Not the president, dean, admissions, politician, lawyers, and/or etc.? Is it just some dude that drops off a list once every 6 months, and then, disappears into a hole until the next cycle. And, if it's so anonymous, how do you know that everyone got there because of by just their "grades?" Sorry, but I find it heard to believe that there is such a thing that money can't buy. With $$$, you could be a world leader, travel to space station, own island(s), and etc., but no, you can't get into GOFREAK's school.

When I say "faculty," it applies to individual personal, in this case a professor. Also, its currently cost money to send kids to college. Thus, even if the government takes over, it's still going to cost $$$. In the US, it cost 2K-50K depending on place you go. 10K per is just a rough number.

 

[Socreges]

its simple. We're #1 and don't give a damn about the rest of the world and could really care less about your opinions.

The ignorant label is laughable because that is someone on the outside projecting " Hey, we are important but those damn Americans are uninformed about <insert topic>" to make that as the reason. The fact Americans really doesn't give a damn just pisses people off.

I think that covers it.

Arrogance breeds ignorance, Ripclawe. Get a clue.

I think the reason why everyone perceive americans (actually, let's not use the term "americans", cause what we're really talking about are... umm... people in the USA) as ignorant/stupid is because that's the public image that your country gives off.

Not me. That wouldn't be fair or accurate. I've met many Americans in the USA, Canada, and abroad. I've got a fairly large sample to build an impression from, although I still acknowledge that it is simply "from my experience". As well that many of those people were, in fact, very nice and intelligent. Though no one is arguing that all Americans are stupid or ignorant.

Ummm the only reason US economy evolved that way was the exploitation of the poor (which continues) and slavery of the blacks. So you shouldn't really be proud of this. Also by being enthusiastic for your war industry is just pure stupidity. Thoughout history even the stupidiest nations with no culture had great armies. Great arguments man.

You may be too contentious, but you're arguing along the right lines. I wanted to add that America's role in the World Wars was EXTREMELY fortunate and is the most critical premise for their huge success.

1) The wars were fought for several years amongst the other major powers - they lost many, many more lives. Russia lost, I think, 20 million people in WWII.
2) The wars were only fought across Europe and destroyed much of the cities. Pearl Harbor is the exception.
3) America was able to sell military supplies to allies while not fighting in the wars.
4) America was able to mobilize over years and therefore create a far more efficient operation.
5) America, being essentially the only powerful nation left standing, made billions and billions of dollars in business off of helping the other countries repair.

Which nation rules has never been a matter of relative intelligence.

Heh heh.

You were going to turn that against him, regardless of what he said.

 

[Nikashi]

The best weed, you say? Wanna send me some?

We would, but apparantly even marijuana sponsors terrorism, according to ads shown in the US, and last I heard, anyone branded a terrorist aren't offered many rights

 

[Drinky Crow]

Americans aren't stupid; they've just isolated themselves in their regional and local subcultures and vote like no-one else on the planet matters but them and Bubba down the street. When they can even be buggered to vote that is, especially on something that isn't a push button issue.

 

[dark10x]

You were going to turn that against him, regardless of what he said.

Actually, I was going to...but I decided it would be better NOT to follow in his steps. I could have asked him how is corrupt government is doing (I mean, I know they must be making progress...afterall, Greece has been considered the most corrupt country within Europe) or something...but figued I would just take a little jab at his answer instead.

 

[ItalianStallion]

We would, but apparantly even marijuana sponsors terrorism, according to ads shown in the US, and last I heard, anyone branded a terrorist aren't offered many rights

I hereby secede from the nation.

 

[Socreges]

Actually, I was going to...but I decided it would be better NOT to follow in his steps. I could have asked him how is corrupt government is doing (I mean, I know they must be making progress...afterall, Greece has been considered the most corrupt country within Europe) or something...but figued I would just take a little jab at his answer instead.

Yep, Greece has a stank government. Still, you've got to admit that the people are wonderful.

 

[dark10x]

Yep, Greece has a stank government. Still, you've got to admit that the people are wonderful.

Should I be honest and realize that there are plenty of good people out there NOT represented by the government? Or should I be a prick like "Che" here and damn everyone for something that most people had nothing to do with?

I'll go with the former.

 

[Socreges]

Should I be honest and realize that there are plenty of good people out there NOT represented by the government? Or should I be a prick like "Che" here and damn everyone for something that most people had nothing to do with?

I'll go with the former.

That's funny. I thought for a moment you might say this, purely because my post lended itself so well to such a comment, but instead I gave you some credit. Che said nothing to that effect.

 

[dark10x]

That's funny. I thought for a moment you might say this, purely because my post lended itself so well to such a comment, but instead I gave you some credit. Che said nothing to that effect.

In this thread? No. ...but we've had a couple of run-ins in the past.

Che has said something to that effect. I just happened to find him in this thread.

Oh, and don't concern yourself with this. It has nothing to do with you...

 

[gofreak]

What country do you live in? Nobody knows who the "independent" authority is? Not the president, dean, admissions, politician, lawyers, and/or etc.? Is it just some dude that drops off a list once every 6 months, and then, disappears into a hole until the next cycle. And, if it's so anonymous, how do you know that everyone got there because of by just their "grades?" Sorry, but I find it heard to believe that there is such a thing that money can't buy. With $$$, you could be a world leader, travel to space station, own island(s), and etc., but no, you can't get into GOFREAK's school..

lol I live in Ireland. The authority isn't anonymous, however it is a black box as far as the universities/students are concerned. Students submit their course choices, in order of preference, to the authority. The colleges submit the number of places they have available. Then using that, the authority allocates places to people based on their choices and their grades. If, say, there are 20 places in one course, and 25 apply, the best 20 are taken. The minimum grades of the "worst" person accepted represents the cut-off point - the number of "points" required to do the course. If more than one person are tied for the final place, then it's a lottery. The authority is called the CAO..it's not anonymous, but it's entirely independent. If you are fresh out of school, money won't buy you a place ahead of someone with better grades than you. Simple as that. As a "mature" student, you can apply for courses, and pay the full fees, but you will have to sit exams, and will be held to the standards of incoming students (so in that sense, you can buy your way in..to a degree..but only after having done another qualification etc.). Oh, and there are a couple of private colleges for people who don't make it in the "points race", but with them, you are paying thousands a year for qualifications that aren't so well recognised - employers know that the people who go to these places, generally speaking, are the people who couldn't succeed on their own merits.

$1m per professor? That's simply ridiculous. You could pay far less, and still pay more than anywhere else in the world.

 

[Guileless]

Che has left a distinguished record of thoughtful, well-reasoned posts. If he had more time to explain, we would all be enriched even more.

Che, do you appreciate the irony of people risking their lives to flee Cuba, former patron of your namesake, to come to the country you dislike so much?

 

[Razoric]

Hey Che, how you like the internet? Pretty cool huh?

 

[Socreges]

In this thread? No. ...but we've had a couple of run-ins in the past.

Che has said something to that effect. I just happened to find him in this thread.

Oh, and don't concern yourself with this. It has nothing to do with you...

A ha. I didn't realize there was history to this.