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Heroes of Newerth |OT| Free-To-Play [PC /Mac /Linux]
- Thread starter blitz64
- Start date
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
Nome said:So, I just got MW3. This is one of the worst games I've ever played. Back to BF3
I've had tons of fun so far in mw3.
PuppetYuber
Banned
BF3 so much better
Sanjay said:
Good advice. I did end up going bottom to see if I could gank but that was at level 5. We had a wildsoul in the jungle too so that kinda ate any farm to be had in there.
What's the timing for stacking two camps? I know the standard XX:55 for one camp, but the first camp always runs back while I'm pulling the second.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
MW3's single player campaign was pretty terrible. Some nice setpieces though. Wonder if there's a Google Street View comparison (is it geographically correct?)
Also, 1500 is almost unreachable for me in solo MM. I get to 1480 and then lose.
TOR is pretty fun but my laptop can't handle it.
Also, 1500 is almost unreachable for me in solo MM. I get to 1480 and then lose.
TOR is pretty fun but my laptop can't handle it.
I think everyone playing MW3 on consoles has felt like it's a step up (or at least equal to) MW2. I don't like it though.
Since I made my tirade against BF3, it's only fair I do the same to MW3, so here goes. I'm feeling a bit dizzy from late-night exercise, so excuse my poor sentence construction.
-Weapon damage seems too high. The good thing about it is that it reinforces the importance of cover and positioning. The bad part is that it decreases skill outside of that. Also, knives were nerfed hard... makes me sad.
-Level design makes no sense. Why is there a jeep in the middle of a construction site on Hardhat? How did it get there? In previous games, props made sense. MW3's maps are a total visual mess. Extrapolating this, every map is too "gamey"; nothing makes logical sense. The scenery is a byproduct of geometry, not the other way around. Nuketown from Blops was one of my favorite maps because it combined form and function very well. Space felt organic and lived-in, and everything made sense. There's not a single MW3 map that matches that.
-There's very little functional difference between maps. In Blops, you had your small skirmishes and your wide open sniper maps, then everything in-between. Not only that, but maps were designed such that different weapons ruled different parts of the same map. You have almost none of that in MW3. MW3's maps are all small, congested, and devoid of long distances. Not only that, but corridors are small and claustrophobic.
-MW3's maps were distinctly designed such that almost every space has multiple entrances, preventing camping. That's good and bad. The good is obvious, but the bad is that it heavily enforces a running, moving, style of play. It's distinctly less tactical than previous COD games.
I should note that I'm playing on PC, have 6 hours logged on it, am level 33, and have only played competitive multiplayer. Haven't played Spec Ops, survival, or campaign yet... hopefully I'll like those more.
Since I made my tirade against BF3, it's only fair I do the same to MW3, so here goes. I'm feeling a bit dizzy from late-night exercise, so excuse my poor sentence construction.
-Weapon damage seems too high. The good thing about it is that it reinforces the importance of cover and positioning. The bad part is that it decreases skill outside of that. Also, knives were nerfed hard... makes me sad.
-Level design makes no sense. Why is there a jeep in the middle of a construction site on Hardhat? How did it get there? In previous games, props made sense. MW3's maps are a total visual mess. Extrapolating this, every map is too "gamey"; nothing makes logical sense. The scenery is a byproduct of geometry, not the other way around. Nuketown from Blops was one of my favorite maps because it combined form and function very well. Space felt organic and lived-in, and everything made sense. There's not a single MW3 map that matches that.
-There's very little functional difference between maps. In Blops, you had your small skirmishes and your wide open sniper maps, then everything in-between. Not only that, but maps were designed such that different weapons ruled different parts of the same map. You have almost none of that in MW3. MW3's maps are all small, congested, and devoid of long distances. Not only that, but corridors are small and claustrophobic.
-MW3's maps were distinctly designed such that almost every space has multiple entrances, preventing camping. That's good and bad. The good is obvious, but the bad is that it heavily enforces a running, moving, style of play. It's distinctly less tactical than previous COD games.
I should note that I'm playing on PC, have 6 hours logged on it, am level 33, and have only played competitive multiplayer. Haven't played Spec Ops, survival, or campaign yet... hopefully I'll like those more.
So let's talk about something, I know we've shot the shit in Mumble about balance before, but I'm genuinely curious.
Dota has some of the most ridiculous heroes that live in glorious ridiculousness, yet DOTA players will swear that the game is balanced, opposed to HoN which has generally good hero balance but some items that make you scratch your head (Old Chalice, Old Bulwark).
Just a different design philosophy, or better balance staff?
Dota has some of the most ridiculous heroes that live in glorious ridiculousness, yet DOTA players will swear that the game is balanced, opposed to HoN which has generally good hero balance but some items that make you scratch your head (Old Chalice, Old Bulwark).
Just a different design philosophy, or better balance staff?
(this is all my experience of 1500s to 1700s hon)
For me, when I play, the reason I find HoN unbalanced sometimes (relating to heros) is because of the apparent shift into the more early game and the early game win.
Most of the newer 'carries' tend have good early damage, some-lots of utility and can still carry very hard into the late game. It completely negates any of the original hard carries, like sand wraith and chronos seem pointless since so many s2 heroes can compete with them.
Also I'm noticing now that its totally legit for a team to pick like 3 carries(Ive seen teams of 4 win in fairly balanced games). Since they all have good early game dmg and some utility, and its not very hard for them to become really stronk and force a CC.
Maybe it is balanced? But its just something that bugs me.
Its something I love and hate about DOTA2 though, you have to play out these epic 45+ minute games. But sometimes you get amazing turn around games which are super fun.
For me, when I play, the reason I find HoN unbalanced sometimes (relating to heros) is because of the apparent shift into the more early game and the early game win.
Most of the newer 'carries' tend have good early damage, some-lots of utility and can still carry very hard into the late game. It completely negates any of the original hard carries, like sand wraith and chronos seem pointless since so many s2 heroes can compete with them.
Also I'm noticing now that its totally legit for a team to pick like 3 carries(Ive seen teams of 4 win in fairly balanced games). Since they all have good early game dmg and some utility, and its not very hard for them to become really stronk and force a CC.
Maybe it is balanced? But its just something that bugs me.
Its something I love and hate about DOTA2 though, you have to play out these epic 45+ minute games. But sometimes you get amazing turn around games which are super fun.
PuppetYuber
Banned
I dont think there are any DoTA heroes that is overly powerful. If we take antimage and spectre, for example, both of them exist in DoTA and HoN (noted spectre and antimage are a bit stronger in DoTA). Why are they not picked in HoN more often? Mainly because there are much better carry heroes in HoN that doesn't require any sort of baby sitting (Silhouette / RA / Zephyr are probably the best example). Even if they are shut down early game, they can bounce back easily, thanks to assist gold. How many time have you lost a game despite having a great early game? Zephyr drops 1 ult gets 3 assists and goes back to 300-350 GPM.
- Smoke of deceit changes metagame, allowing more strategic play style.
- DoTA balance has improved greatly overtime. Sven and Skeleton King's stun used to be single target spell, but now Sven's stun is AOE, so he is picked more often for trilane / support role. Skeleton King's stun allows him to chase down enemy now. In the past, there are no reason to pick them over other heroes.
- Compare Chen and Ophelia, Chen tier 1 pick in DoTA simply because of 1 skill difference (command to send people home).
- I would say if there are any viable strategy that works in DoTA, it will likely excel in HoN as well, because it is easier to passively farm in HoN.
- Problem with HoN is that, balance issue gets addressed way to slow. Same thing happened in DoTA as well. When DoTA first came out, it was incredibly imbalance, Chrono's ult froze everyone on the map, and Stealth assassin had Witch Doctor's death ward as an ult. But DoTA has come a long way, most issues have already been addressed, and it is very unlikely we will see new items in DoTA. Only thing DoTA will have to address is new heroes balance. Whereas HoN have to focus on both items and heroes balance.
- Smoke of deceit changes metagame, allowing more strategic play style.
- DoTA balance has improved greatly overtime. Sven and Skeleton King's stun used to be single target spell, but now Sven's stun is AOE, so he is picked more often for trilane / support role. Skeleton King's stun allows him to chase down enemy now. In the past, there are no reason to pick them over other heroes.
- Compare Chen and Ophelia, Chen tier 1 pick in DoTA simply because of 1 skill difference (command to send people home).
- I would say if there are any viable strategy that works in DoTA, it will likely excel in HoN as well, because it is easier to passively farm in HoN.
- Problem with HoN is that, balance issue gets addressed way to slow. Same thing happened in DoTA as well. When DoTA first came out, it was incredibly imbalance, Chrono's ult froze everyone on the map, and Stealth assassin had Witch Doctor's death ward as an ult. But DoTA has come a long way, most issues have already been addressed, and it is very unlikely we will see new items in DoTA. Only thing DoTA will have to address is new heroes balance. Whereas HoN have to focus on both items and heroes balance.
I'll give you my take on it.Sebulon3k said:
Both games introduce items that are fairly imbalanced. However, their playerbases will react in very different ways for very different reasons. IceFrog communicates with competitive players in a very different way than we do. Whereas we will generally put them together into a shared setting and let them discuss a solution, IceFrog isolates them and asks for opinions one-on-one. The nature of picking a solution among a crowd of varying opinions requires that the majority do not get their wishes fulfilled. The difference between us and IceFrog is that in our situation, the openness works against us, because people come to realize when their exact implementation of a solution doesn't happen (and are also galvanized when their friends'or clanmates' solution is not implemented), where as in IceFrog's case, there is no clear feedback. If you never feel like you had much of a say in the first place, you don't feel as bad about "being ignored".
As far as hero balance goes, yes, it is part of our design philosophy to have heroes the way they are, particularly with carries. I was actually the primary proponent of that in the first place.
The biggest difference between Magebane and Antimage is that we specifically designed Magebane to have an important flaw; his magic armor is attached to his Flash, which means that he is much easier to kill if you catch him off-guard. Antimage doesn't have that weakness, which is why he's significantly stronger.PuppetYuber said:
Amun-Ra and Zephyr are powerful right now because they proliferate in a pushing-centered meta due to the overall lack of burst damage and the increase in healing. This is why you didn't see them before (especially Zephyr). The assist gold makes a difference, but it's very overstated. That was a scapegoat argument being used by competitive players to single out Sand Wraith and Thunderbringer, both of whom weren't made viable by the assist gold changes, but were simply brought to light.
Smoke of Deceit is a nice item, but it's not needed in HoN. HoN actually has a much stronger framework for ganking. Wards of Revelation are now limited. Bound Eye isn't purchased nearly as much as Gem of True Sight in DotA (Gem's such a problem in DotA that it's capped in the store). Striders helps for early game mobility a lot, and Blood Chalice solves a lot of early mana problems without being the broken item it used to be. If you ask any competitive player, they will tell you ganking is fine as-is. Smoke is in DotA because it was NEEDED to break the farming meta. There's nothing like that in HoN because it wasn't needed.
It is not easier to passively farm in HoN. If it is, it doesn't show. Compare typical GPMs in HoN and DotA. You'll generally find that in DotA, carry GPMs go into the 600's, while in HoN, 500 tends to be the upper limit.
The entire genre lives on imbalance. That's the ultimate irony, and would make for a good conspiracy. People want balance, but what they want more are changelogs. A dev could purposely make the game imbalanced in order to increase the number of significant balance changes later. This is pretty crooked, so that's where new content comes in. New content is bound to be imbalanced, so its interaction with existing content will result in big changes. Anyway, I've typed too much already. Gonna shoot some bitches on BF3.
Two specific things that I wanted to talk about as hueg differences I see between the HoN and Dota metagames:
1: Chalice vs Arcane boots: In HoN, and sort of strength hero with skills basically has to get a chalice to be viable. It's not really an option. Clarities are fine early, but they don't really make an appearance outside of the midgame. In dota, I was finding that I wouldn't need to get my regen at all as long as a support picked up arcane boots. I could then focus on finishing a van or whatever other items I need. This seems to switch the burden of mana regeneration from the individuals to the support players. I prefer HoN if I'm playing support, because then the only thing I need to worry about is wards and not my team's mana.
2: Smoke: Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, but it seems like in Dota, people don't even bother trying to counterward as much as in hon. It doesn't matter as much. They could try to figure out where the ward is, or they could buy smoke and completely disregard any wards. I kind of like the warding meta better, because then it becomes a battle of wits between the warders and the counterwarders.
1: Chalice vs Arcane boots: In HoN, and sort of strength hero with skills basically has to get a chalice to be viable. It's not really an option. Clarities are fine early, but they don't really make an appearance outside of the midgame. In dota, I was finding that I wouldn't need to get my regen at all as long as a support picked up arcane boots. I could then focus on finishing a van or whatever other items I need. This seems to switch the burden of mana regeneration from the individuals to the support players. I prefer HoN if I'm playing support, because then the only thing I need to worry about is wards and not my team's mana.
2: Smoke: Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough, but it seems like in Dota, people don't even bother trying to counterward as much as in hon. It doesn't matter as much. They could try to figure out where the ward is, or they could buy smoke and completely disregard any wards. I kind of like the warding meta better, because then it becomes a battle of wits between the warders and the counterwarders.
That's like saying you wouldn't need to get a mana item if your supports got Arcane Ring.
DOTA has a Chalice equivalent, it's just not straight mana regeneration and, to be honest, I prefer it that way. While Chalice is a great item, I feel it solves too many problems for too little cost, it's as ubiquitous as magic wand in DOTA (and I remember Nome mentioning this was their intention with Chalice a long time ago).
Plus, certain heroes lose their early game mana draw backs exceedingly quickly with a chalice, most notably Rigwarl/Armadon.
On the other hand, I really miss Striders, since power treads on a support is a massive waste. Same goes for Nome's wisdom as well. Carrying a Ring of Basilus around until the 40 minute mark because you have nothing to build with it (and you can't take it part yet to make soul urn or whatever) is getting old.
I can't think of any particularly imbalanced heroes in DOTA. Which ones are you thinking of, Swag?
DOTA has a Chalice equivalent, it's just not straight mana regeneration and, to be honest, I prefer it that way. While Chalice is a great item, I feel it solves too many problems for too little cost, it's as ubiquitous as magic wand in DOTA (and I remember Nome mentioning this was their intention with Chalice a long time ago).
Plus, certain heroes lose their early game mana draw backs exceedingly quickly with a chalice, most notably Rigwarl/Armadon.
On the other hand, I really miss Striders, since power treads on a support is a massive waste. Same goes for Nome's wisdom as well. Carrying a Ring of Basilus around until the 40 minute mark because you have nothing to build with it (and you can't take it part yet to make soul urn or whatever) is getting old.
I can't think of any particularly imbalanced heroes in DOTA. Which ones are you thinking of, Swag?
This is something I have to rant about, I almost always would prefer to go nature's wrath for actually killing things more effectively, but that entirely cuts off the teleporting allies part of the plan. Going judgment is arguably stronger for many situations (and perhaps a little safer thinking of investing for an endgame team, playing more defensive and all), though it's far less effective in early levels I feel, and uses a crazy amount of mana to boot. If I manage to keep my creeps alive, the third skill isn't doing anything for most of the time during the game.PuppetYuber said:
In DotA though, there's no contest, always skill up the slow and you get the best of both worlds, and you get rewarded for keeping your creeps alive by being able to port stuff with that cooldown instead. Also it costs less mana to teleport and you'll have it at 3 seconds earlier! So strong.
FromTheFuture
Member
He's talking about Soul Ring. It's 800 gold to swap 150 health for 150 mana. Has some other stats like HP/mana regen as well.Conceptor said:
Magic Wand is pretty much an item that goes on any hero, and you'll pretty much see it on every hero. At the end of the day, it's up to you, but it's hard to go wrong with picking one up.
reason why invoker is a top pick/ban in competitive games. his skill set allows him to do almost anything, given the situation. EMP + Tornado is such a strong combination mid game, it destroys mana pools like no other. Invoker is strong because he can easily adapt his skill set to fit the situation.Halycon said:
FromTheFuture
Member
WTF, I JUST PUT IN THE GAME, WHY AM I IN JAIL?!Sanjay said:
GO TEAM NO JAIL
dorkimoe
Gold Member
I will always be up for a dota2/hon game, so people just have to ask!
I played with pillow last night and got my 2nd win yay! I definitely liked that hero (the soul reaper guy)
I do miss hon, i still think hon plays better than dota2, i just better learn what everyone else is going too.
I played with pillow last night and got my 2nd win yay! I definitely liked that hero (the soul reaper guy)
I do miss hon, i still think hon plays better than dota2, i just better learn what everyone else is going too.
PuppetYuber
Banned
stfu dorkimoe.
Lone_Prodigy
Member
Guesong said:
Yeah seriously, S2 where's my silver sale.
PuppetYuber
Banned
Anokbr: " after last game I played with MrMr, I am never TMMing with him again"