Heroes of Newerth |OT| Free-To-Play [PC /Mac /Linux]
- Thread starter blitz64
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PuppetYuber
Banned
Invoker is easy if you just right click, but to use every skill effectively is extremely difficult (especially under pressure). I practiced invoker for like 2 weeks straight and still cant maximize his potential.
The point is, most heroes don't kill after pressing 2 buttons, but with Zephyr, q+r = roflbye. RA = q+w = roflbye. With silhouette, you dont even need to cast skills, just right click and people dies. This also happens in LoL. Jax/Irelia/GP press 2 buttons and people blow up instantly.
EDIT: Soulstealer has more than 4 skills! GG NOME
The point is, most heroes don't kill after pressing 2 buttons, but with Zephyr, q+r = roflbye. RA = q+w = roflbye. With silhouette, you dont even need to cast skills, just right click and people dies. This also happens in LoL. Jax/Irelia/GP press 2 buttons and people blow up instantly.
EDIT: Soulstealer has more than 4 skills! GG NOME
PuppetYuber
Banned
I never live to see her other 2 skills.
she jump me, I die
she jump me, I die
PuppetYuber
Banned
tomat is dumb, none activatable skills are still skills.
fucking tomat go back to ur cave
fucking tomat go back to ur cave
See, that's what's awful about Invoker. A hero that requires you to have an entirely different skillset (good memory) is dumb. A certain unnamed designer that also thought Invoker was a good idea once thought that a global spell that made allies play a mini-game to get a buff was a good idea. No unnamed designer, that is NOT a good idea. Screwing over a big portion of your players is never a good idea. I spent 5 minutes to plug Invoker into a Autohotkey script and could dominate incredibly easily because it simplified the memorization greatly. That shouldn't be possible in these games, and it really highlights the difference between good and bad design. Good design puts skill in choice, bad design puts it into invisible factors like memory.PuppetYuber said:
Also, your comparisons are fallacious. A Q/W doesn't instantly kill anyone unless you're much more farmed. A Zephyr Q/R might, but if you want to trivialize things like that, I can point out several DotA heroes that can kill an entire TEAM with a single key press: Earthshaker, Shadowfiend, Obsidian Destroyer, Crystal Maiden, Sand King. See what I did there? I made a completely stupid argument that completely ignored any and all context like positioning, farming/laning, metagame, etc. Honestly, I've seen you playing DotA for at least 4 years now and yet you still subscribe to uneducated opinions. It's kind of appalling.
PuppetYuber
Banned
err Nome, you dont need to be farmed with those heroes, that is precisely the main issue.
This is not LoL, skills don't scale with items (except for RA's W, but he has a base nuke damage as well). Most S2 heroes have great early/mid/late games, which is the reason why they are usually OP. Both of them have strong nukes and insane farming ability (better than 90% of heroes in game easily). Once Zephyr hits lvl 6, he drops ult on you, and gust, hero pretty much dies unless you have a blink. Once RA hit lvl 5, his Q and W pretty much instantly kills any INT/AGI heroes. This makes snow balling much easier for those heroes. If they gets shut down early game, they can easily clear out jungle to get back into the game.
All heroes should have some sort of weaknesses in order to be balanced, aside from RA/Zephyr/Silhouette, other S2 heroes are okay, but still out perform most original DOTA heroes.
Lets take Drunken Master for example. When the hero first came out, he is extremely strong and viable for mid. He can control the lane very well. However, he couldn't farm for shit (and that was his weakness). Once S2 addressed that weakness, you see more of him in TMM matches, and even in league games. Geomancer falls into that group too, it is a decent hero, but cant farm and doesn't scale well.
The line up you mentioned is still very viable in DoTA, and actually proves my point. In a team based game it make sense to pick a team that can initate / turtle / gank / teamfight effectively. I don't think anyone wouldn't replace those heroes with heroes like huskar/troll warriors/ursa etc. Same reason why I wouldn't pick any other carries other than RA/Silhouette/Zephyr.
Allow me to make a comparsion in LoL. How many time have we lost in Dominion after a 300 points lead, and lost to 1 champion because he/she is extremely OP? This happens in regular league as well; there are just champions that out lanes majority of champions. It makes no sense not to pick them over others.
Its like DOTA2 right now as well, it doesnt make sense not to pick either Void/AM/Weaver/Spec as part of your team. I mean, how can you even argue that those heroes are not OP? lol. The difference between HoN and Dota2 is that AM/Weaver/Spec needs to farm to be effective, whereas Zephyr / RA is like giving a hero instant Bfury to help them farm and snowball.
This is not LoL, skills don't scale with items (except for RA's W, but he has a base nuke damage as well). Most S2 heroes have great early/mid/late games, which is the reason why they are usually OP. Both of them have strong nukes and insane farming ability (better than 90% of heroes in game easily). Once Zephyr hits lvl 6, he drops ult on you, and gust, hero pretty much dies unless you have a blink. Once RA hit lvl 5, his Q and W pretty much instantly kills any INT/AGI heroes. This makes snow balling much easier for those heroes. If they gets shut down early game, they can easily clear out jungle to get back into the game.
All heroes should have some sort of weaknesses in order to be balanced, aside from RA/Zephyr/Silhouette, other S2 heroes are okay, but still out perform most original DOTA heroes.
Lets take Drunken Master for example. When the hero first came out, he is extremely strong and viable for mid. He can control the lane very well. However, he couldn't farm for shit (and that was his weakness). Once S2 addressed that weakness, you see more of him in TMM matches, and even in league games. Geomancer falls into that group too, it is a decent hero, but cant farm and doesn't scale well.
The line up you mentioned is still very viable in DoTA, and actually proves my point. In a team based game it make sense to pick a team that can initate / turtle / gank / teamfight effectively. I don't think anyone wouldn't replace those heroes with heroes like huskar/troll warriors/ursa etc. Same reason why I wouldn't pick any other carries other than RA/Silhouette/Zephyr.
Allow me to make a comparsion in LoL. How many time have we lost in Dominion after a 300 points lead, and lost to 1 champion because he/she is extremely OP? This happens in regular league as well; there are just champions that out lanes majority of champions. It makes no sense not to pick them over others.
Its like DOTA2 right now as well, it doesnt make sense not to pick either Void/AM/Weaver/Spec as part of your team. I mean, how can you even argue that those heroes are not OP? lol. The difference between HoN and Dota2 is that AM/Weaver/Spec needs to farm to be effective, whereas Zephyr / RA is like giving a hero instant Bfury to help them farm and snowball.
You are demonstrating both your lack of DotA and HoN knowledge here.PuppetYuber said:
First, you're trying to make the argument that Amun-Ra and Zephyr don't need farm, when their ease of farm is precisely the reason they're powerful--you yourself bring up this point. What you're trying to articulate is that both these heroes do not rely on farm to deal damage, which is true--rather, their damage is intrinsically tied to their survivability, which is relatively cheap compared to pure carry items. That's a faulty argument, because both heroes fall into the "DPS Tank" archetype, which also includes heroes like Armadon/Bristleback and Doombringer. But this argument can be extrapolated to any non-scaling casters. Plague Rider requires no farm, yet he's a consistent ban/pick right now. DotA hero, and he's actually weaker in HoN than DotA.
Some S2 heroes are designed to be useful all game, correct. That does not make them "overpowered"; what it does is cause the game to, overall, rely less on role stratification. This is why competitive HoN currently has a more healthy, variable meta than any other game in the genre--because so many options are empowered.
You're basing your arguments entirely on second-hand information and prevailing trends rather than objective analysis. The fact you're calling Amun-Ra and Zephyr imbalanced speaks volumes; as I've mentioned previously in this thread, both heroes are specifically powerful right now because of the decreased emphasis on quick burst lineups. They weren't considered imbalanced before, despite having little or no changes in a long period of time. Likewise, heroes like Nymphora were considered underpowered or useless by some players, while others understood her potential for quite a while before finally busting her out and making her a current staple. Now everyone is eager to jump on the "Nymphora is imbalanced" bandwagon without thinking about context.
PuppetYuber
Banned
Isn't HoN a carbon copy of DoTA? DoTA heroes are not designed to be useful all game; thus why there are different roles in game. Why did S2 decide to change that philosophy? When S2's philosophy changes and introduce a carry hero that can nuke out a lane and snowball grealty, while leaving the old heroes the same, of course they will stand out. Sure, it might not be "overpowered" but it is nevertheless and advantage over old heroes pool. S2's goal was to abandon roles completely, changing MOBA games into BLC style of game? Yet you guys release heroes like Monarch and Rhapsody, and specifically address the hero as "support" in hero spotlight. Funny thing is, both heroes do their roles 100x better than DoTA supports.
Despite those changes, HoN's metagame is still the same. Previously, as long as a team shut downs carry early game, the game is pretty much a win - kill carry win game. Now you have carry that farms with ease, and requires constant ganking thats why nymphora is picked in competitive games (players adapted to the changes). Furion in DOTA is almost always picked for the same reason. Like I have mentioned before, most HoN's strategy and synergy are inspired by DoTA.
Oh, and when Nymphora first came out, she was OP as fuck as well. A support hero that can farm, tp gank, and carry? At least she is nerfed so that she lost her carry potential. <-- a great example of a hero without a clear defined role.
Like I dont get how you can keep arguing that those heroes are not OP when there is zero incentives to pick any other carries. Same thing in battlefield 3, why would any players not attach flashlight or IR on their gun? There is no incentive not to.
Despite those changes, HoN's metagame is still the same. Previously, as long as a team shut downs carry early game, the game is pretty much a win - kill carry win game. Now you have carry that farms with ease, and requires constant ganking thats why nymphora is picked in competitive games (players adapted to the changes). Furion in DOTA is almost always picked for the same reason. Like I have mentioned before, most HoN's strategy and synergy are inspired by DoTA.
Oh, and when Nymphora first came out, she was OP as fuck as well. A support hero that can farm, tp gank, and carry? At least she is nerfed so that she lost her carry potential. <-- a great example of a hero without a clear defined role.
Like I dont get how you can keep arguing that those heroes are not OP when there is zero incentives to pick any other carries. Same thing in battlefield 3, why would any players not attach flashlight or IR on their gun? There is no incentive not to.
PuppetYuber said:
HoN WAS a carbon copy of DotA... pre-beta. We changed that philosophy because it's not conducive to a well-designed retail game. You're trying to argue that only S2 heroes can nuke out a lane and snowball... are you serious here? Soulstealer was the original farming carry, and he dominated competitive HoN for over a year before he was largely phased out for other carries. Plus, very few DotA heroes were left the same... rather, none were left the same. All have gotten tweaks for HoN, some have been nerfed in HoN and still are at the top of the cast.
S2's goal was never to abandon roles, it was to make the less desired roles more enjoyable to play. That's why carries are more useful early game, so they're not a complete crutch and don't rely on passive PvE farm. That's why supports were given Striders, and the +6/3/3 stat items were given good upgrades... so supports didn't just become total crutches. You act like Monarch and Rhapsody are better than every DotA support, which is just wrong on so many levels. On paper, they're not necessarily better. In practice, using empirical data like pick/ban rates, they're not more ubiquitous. You're literally making this up.
PuppetYuber
Banned
more like MrMr sucking Nome's cawk all night, couldnt even talk with mic on.
<3 Nome come play dota 2 kthxbye
<3 Nome come play dota 2 kthxbye
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
PuppetYuber said:
You just got your shit stomped dude.
FromTheFuture
Member
REEL TAWKbzm said:meanwhile every post you make in this thread is basically: "LOL i carry u nome <3<3<3D:
<3 "
get real kid
PuppetYuber
Banned
dont doubt my 1337ness, get raped bzm/procarbine/alumnus
PuppetYuber
Banned
go back to your shit hole console players
puber like it's hard to carry in an FPS. You just gotta have kids to take the points and meanwhile you just fucking get your assault spec and shoot kids all day. Get hit? np just throw your own medkit. Play something harder and maybe we'll see some respect.
edit: ahahahahahaha he got banned for shittalking consoles.
edit: ahahahahahaha he got banned for shittalking consoles.
Procarbine
Forever Platinum
PuppetYuber said:
Lone_Prodigy
Member
Yuber was junior right? Then he's permabanned.