AnathemicOne
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How would you even pronounce that? Lol
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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
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How would you even pronounce that? Lol
brickwalker0
Member
win rates is a horrible stat for tracking how strong a hero is. there are 9 other heroes in a match (out of a pool of 30+ to choose from) that influence how a hero performs. also completely different skill levels from the players that use said hero.
It's not - especially when you can isolate data and see where there's issues (Hi Nova at low MMRs).
KT's problem is that he has a fine winrate but he's only got one build and its unfun to play with/against. Hence him getting a rework.
Like I said las time. It's cool that it's on ESPN. But if it's only on ESPN then it's horse shit
My opinion is correct.
When are you coming back?
I foresee a problem with turning KT's stun into a root: the animations.
Currently, every character has an animation while being thrown up into the air. But they don't have animations to do anything while thrown up there because they are stunned, and can't do anything anyway. Turn it into a root and suddenly that's an extra animation for every hero in the game and coming in the future. Potentially multiple animations for each hero actually due to auto attacks and their various abilities.
They'd have to not only classify it as a root but change the ability itself from gravity lapse to something vaguely root-y to implement the root.
That's not how I read it. I read it as - the changes aren't even on the PTR yet, so they're not coming with Li-Ming.
I don't see it that way either I'm afraid.
I think the only difference we'll see is the fixes to Li-Mings auto attack bug and thats it.
BTw, can someone please tell me if THH did that incredibly annoying thing where they don't discuss the patch because it's only the test realm? Might skip the episode if that's the case because it always drives me crazy... ;-)
I think the only difference we'll see is the fixes to Li-Mings auto attack bug and thats it.
BTw, can someone please tell me if THH did that incredibly annoying thing where they don't discuss the patch because it's only the test realm? Might skip the episode if that's the case because it always drives me crazy... ;-)
Thankfully, they actually just dove right into them. They got called out on that a little while back and this was clearly a fix.
Oh I see. Alur asks you like 4 or 5 times when you're coming back, ignored. Milly asks once...answered. I cri evry tiem
I mean I already know, I was just curious if it had changed.
WUT. D+W+W fun times
Ketch and I are in constant communication via PMs. He has secretly replaced you.
And I don't think it's a factor of D+W+W. He's just fun period no matter what you run.
^^ Yep.
Through all the buffs, nerfs, changes etc he's always just been so fun to play.
OOOOH, you rite. Q bomb was good times too. heuehue
this is me playing you on the forums while talking to you on the forums postception
For me he's fun because he's so good. His play style leaves a lot to be desired compared to Jaina, for example, though. And takes a lot less skill to utilize. That's why he's getting the look.
Whatevs bruh.
I'm sure he'll still be fun even with a nerf, unless they totally change him. His kit in general is kind of fun.
Brightwing is still as fun as ever despite the nerfs. Just a shame she kind of sucks in the QM randomness.
Eh, I enjoy playing Jaina too. Kael is just my one true love.
Q bomb was more fun than D+W+W and took a LITTLE more skill since you had to aim it. Still, Q build is fun as hell when you get the chance to use it.
KT is fun because skill shot stun and satisfying sound on flame strike. Shhhhhhh BOOM.
I could see stun duration decrease.
And fuck the dumb +% to damage generic ass talent.
Remove the bonus damage talent on living bomb put ignite in there at 7 with a "you get ignite but -30% damage to flame strike" or something.
I could see stun duration decrease.
And fuck the dumb +% to damage generic ass talent.
Remove the bonus damage talent on living bomb put ignite in there at 7 with a "you get ignite but -30% damage to flame strike" or something.
All we see is WR, so what do you purpose? Everyone says "WR IS SUCH A BAD METRIC", well what the hell else do WE get to personally see? And those wouldn't even be there without Hotslogs.
I just don't see what you are supposed to balance with outside of winrate. Everyone says balancing around winrate is dumb, but I've yet to hear what it is that they should be doing.
To me, Blizzard likely monitors all winrates - not just heroes, but talents, maps, etc - and when something goes past whatever arbitrary point it is that they set, then they dig into it.
They aren't "balancing around winrates" so much as they are utilizing winrate to tell them when something underneath the hood may need tuning. And obviously certain heroes you can't do that with, but the overwhelming majority provide pretty accurate data across the amount of games they have to analyze each patch.
To me, Blizzard likely monitors all winrates - not just heroes, but talents, maps, etc - and when something goes past whatever arbitrary point it is that they set, then they dig into it.
They aren't "balancing around winrates" so much as they are utilizing winrate to tell them when something underneath the hood may need tuning. And obviously certain heroes you can't do that with, but the overwhelming majority provide pretty accurate data across the amount of games they have to analyze each patch.
Well I kind of get what he probably means.
HL and QM WR's alone are a bit pointless because there are certain heroes that just suffer in those random types of matches. Where as at a pro level they can shine a bit more. Abathur being a great example.
Yeah, but now you're getting into the Pro vs. Plebs argument. Balancing around Pros is a terrible idea. They'll make it work somehow regardless, and they're also getting paid to do it so their viewpoint is skewed.
Regardless, I think Alur nailed it on the head, unless someone else comes in here with some good ideas.
I dont think they are balancing around winrates either, pr-wise they have been pretty inconsistent about using the phrase though.
Winrates are out of context data and are useful. Balancing needs to be done by contextualizing the data they get. One example i can think of is when illidans winrate was pretty middling but a lot of ppl were clamoring for his nerf because he could win any game w/ certain teammates + like a smidgeob of skill. Blizz was like aight his winrate is whatever its fine, but eventually gave in and removed unstoppable from q later on.
Like i always bring up the cast aside removal during a time when tyrael was hardly played amd had a whatever winrate as a good balance move that was smart, loyal. The idea that winrate is a good indicator of balance is off the mark, it can give you a snapshot of something but it rarely gives you a good look at the actual game, where things like illidan/tyrael winrate obscure really clear imbalances in the game.
Instead balance should be done around meta analysis and kit interaction analysis. I feel like the sonya nerf is an example of this. It was a little early but absolutely makes sense in the context of future nerfs to cc which they have said they will do.
One way to think of this is thinking about what a ~50% winrate for all heroes in the game actually means. I guarantee that this winrate does not stay, that certain heroes begin breaking that point and dipping below that point, due to players shaping the game where certain combinations become more effective than others. What blizz should strive for when balancing isnt the eventual singularity of heroes but dynamic viability for as many heroes as they can (also make the heroes fun to play). This means that a hero with a 43% winrate can be the best choice in particular situations but perhaps not as plug and play as other heroes in the same class, that is good balance to me
Winrates are out of context data and are useful. Balancing needs to be done by contextualizing the data they get. One example i can think of is when illidans winrate was pretty middling but a lot of ppl were clamoring for his nerf because he could win any game w/ certain teammates + like a smidgeob of skill. Blizz was like aight his winrate is whatever its fine, but eventually gave in and removed unstoppable from q later on.
Like i always bring up the cast aside removal during a time when tyrael was hardly played amd had a whatever winrate as a good balance move that was smart, loyal. The idea that winrate is a good indicator of balance is off the mark, it can give you a snapshot of something but it rarely gives you a good look at the actual game, where things like illidan/tyrael winrate obscure really clear imbalances in the game.
Instead balance should be done around meta analysis and kit interaction analysis. I feel like the sonya nerf is an example of this. It was a little early but absolutely makes sense in the context of future nerfs to cc which they have said they will do.
One way to think of this is thinking about what a ~50% winrate for all heroes in the game actually means. I guarantee that this winrate does not stay, that certain heroes begin breaking that point and dipping below that point, due to players shaping the game where certain combinations become more effective than others. What blizz should strive for when balancing isnt the eventual singularity of heroes but dynamic viability for as many heroes as they can (also make the heroes fun to play). This means that a hero with a 43% winrate can be the best choice in particular situations but perhaps not as plug and play as other heroes in the same class, that is good balance to me
Well, I never said you should balance around pro's. I was just stating it doesn't give the full picture.
Balancing will always be difficult, and there's always going to be the favourites. I think why HotS feels worse for it is just because of the small hero pool.
I would disagree I think - I think balancing around the pros is fine. They shouldn't do it exclusively, particularly around new player issues (like nova!). But in terms of fine tuning heroes and balance issues, I would say they were the best single group to look at. Not the only group, but definitely the best one.
It would be good if they put up a blog post about balance, and how they look at it and what knobs they have to tune, but I guess that would be hoping for a bit much.
P.S. New rehghar = craaaaaazy. I've just been using the lightning shield build, which is hilarious fun on it's own, but he seems soooo good with multiple builds now. I think the level 1 talent is a mistake for him though - it gives him excellent wave clear, and I don't think main supports should have that.
It would be good if they put up a blog post about balance, and how they look at it and what knobs they have to tune, but I guess that would be hoping for a bit much.
P.S. New rehghar = craaaaaazy. I've just been using the lightning shield build, which is hilarious fun on it's own, but he seems soooo good with multiple builds now. I think the level 1 talent is a mistake for him though - it gives him excellent wave clear, and I don't think main supports should have that.
One really quick and relevant example is tassadar, where his winrate is booty but pls pls dont buff him or we all gonna die. It's not really about balancing around pro play but using the info that pros generate where they are the ppl who are closest to getting at what heroes can do and what combinations of heroes are strong. Like going by winrate, instead of stripping unstoppable from illidans q they should have buffed him. There is basically no reason to make balance changes based on ppl who do things wrong.
I think sometimes ppl conflate balancing for plebs or whatever w/ the removal of toxic unfun things. Nova is like the prime example of this where she existed in pro play like a year ago as a pretty easy to shut down character but in lower levels she was jus blowing ppl up. Its a good thing to change her in this situation because nova was hardly relevant at the top but a terror at the bottom, especially since her existence was bullshit for ppl who didnt know how to deal with her.
Personally i think the communication they give in patch notes, like those concise summaries of what they think is going on and how they hope the change addresses this, is all they should say on the matter, it's transparent without opening themselves up to needless attacks on their process which they probably could not communicate through writing and probably isnt even the same month to month
I think sometimes ppl conflate balancing for plebs or whatever w/ the removal of toxic unfun things. Nova is like the prime example of this where she existed in pro play like a year ago as a pretty easy to shut down character but in lower levels she was jus blowing ppl up. Its a good thing to change her in this situation because nova was hardly relevant at the top but a terror at the bottom, especially since her existence was bullshit for ppl who didnt know how to deal with her.
Personally i think the communication they give in patch notes, like those concise summaries of what they think is going on and how they hope the change addresses this, is all they should say on the matter, it's transparent without opening themselves up to needless attacks on their process which they probably could not communicate through writing and probably isnt even the same month to month
Double post! Sorry, just something I noticed about the new rehghar build - he seems to have a different talent approach than other heroes.
Normally we get a mixture of talents throughout a heroes kit, that allows them to go in different directions - often damage or survival (or for healers, more healing). New Rehghar doesn't have that - every tier has a clear point to it, and every talent on that tier is similar. Tier 1 is utility, tier 2 is efficiency, Tier 3 is utility, tier 5 is healing, Tier 6 is killing. There isn't an option to play a "damage" rehghar, or a "healing" rehghar - because no matter how you build him, you'l be taking similar veined talents at every tier. It's really interesting design because it makes rehghar always work within a particular kit - melee healer. You can chose *how* he does that, but you can't fundamentally shift him away from that overall package.
Think its really clever design -= both him and Li-Ming have fantastic talent trees that are so much better than other heroes.
Normally we get a mixture of talents throughout a heroes kit, that allows them to go in different directions - often damage or survival (or for healers, more healing). New Rehghar doesn't have that - every tier has a clear point to it, and every talent on that tier is similar. Tier 1 is utility, tier 2 is efficiency, Tier 3 is utility, tier 5 is healing, Tier 6 is killing. There isn't an option to play a "damage" rehghar, or a "healing" rehghar - because no matter how you build him, you'l be taking similar veined talents at every tier. It's really interesting design because it makes rehghar always work within a particular kit - melee healer. You can chose *how* he does that, but you can't fundamentally shift him away from that overall package.
Think its really clever design -= both him and Li-Ming have fantastic talent trees that are so much better than other heroes.
Its an interesting idea but i think it fails when you look at what they did with nova
Ming lee feels like really successful talent design to me but i havent played her
Actually i just realized that i think her talents are good because so much power is packed into basically every single one, god she feels really awful to abathur clone (i wanna see the dbl ming lee reset tho?)
Ming lee feels like really successful talent design to me but i havent played her
Actually i just realized that i think her talents are good because so much power is packed into basically every single one, god she feels really awful to abathur clone (i wanna see the dbl ming lee reset tho?)
I like the idea behind focused tiers, like it actually will probably go a long way to making heroes have more specific identities. They have to keep power spikes in mind tho, like i think thats why a lot of ppl were conplaining about lvl 4 lunara even though the talents are nice. I feel like nova doesnt see a meaningful spike until 7 which pretty much spells doom for whatever team shes on, but i mean it's obviously early and maybe things will crop up, it's hard to imagine this though. It might also have to do with type of talents? Like lvl 1 = cloak talent and lvl 4 = decoy talent but these are kind of things that dont really impact the game very much
Ppl on reddit have been saying make d activate cloak, and i think itd be really cool if she had brood war style ghost skills like cloak, lockdown, stuff that makes her a risky play enabler rather than a burst hero, you could have really cool talents with cloak as a skill or a disable as a skill
Ppl on reddit have been saying make d activate cloak, and i think itd be really cool if she had brood war style ghost skills like cloak, lockdown, stuff that makes her a risky play enabler rather than a burst hero, you could have really cool talents with cloak as a skill or a disable as a skill
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
Rehgar changes are weird. It's like someone seriously thought the most fun way to play him would be to use lightning shield constantly, totem offensively, and heal only when you think about it
Sticking the lvl 1 healing talents in the same tree as feral heart makes me sad
Sticking the lvl 1 healing talents in the same tree as feral heart makes me sad
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