Sadly no
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Heroes of the Storm |OT3| Chromiehounds
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Sadly no
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
30 seconds is rather low for a point and click stun as well, it's gonna be up every fight and possibly even ready mid fight again. Stuns on warriors and bruisers are generally on 10+ second CDs
be prepared to fight me while you're fighting me?
Have they done this before? I guess it could be an elegant solution.
Both things are likely true here. Meta needs a buff, Hunt needs the stun removed (or removed as a short-range stun, which would actually be quite the clever solution.)
Part of the issue w/ the stun, of course, is Uther being fucking ridiculous right now and as a consequence all these dive heroes who he's good w/ (Greymane/Illidan/Genji) are magnified in power level because of it.
Part of the issue w/ the stun, of course, is Uther being fucking ridiculous right now and as a consequence all these dive heroes who he's good w/ (Greymane/Illidan/Genji) are magnified in power level because of it.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I like this idea make the stun conditional on travel distance.
Yea. You don't get to run away. That's the whole point of the heroic.
If they nerf it, it should be CD or damage. But honestly he doesn't need nerfs. There are a million ways that illidan gets shit on already. Nerfs would make him not pickable once again.
Xul will get nerfed and the combo will die on its own.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
R20 stomping GFE's split push cheese is so good.
Alternatively you could make the windup for Illidan channeled so any damage not just displacement or stuns would interrupt it. Almost no difference for the intended use but much more counterplay potential during fights.
but that's not how how hunt is used exclusively, it's also used during ongoing fights with no one running away. I'm not opposed to buffs either, meta in particular is a terrible terrible talent that doesn't even make you feel powerful as illidan.
Alternatively you could make the windup for Illidan channeled so any damage not just displacement or stuns would interrupt it. Almost no difference for the intended use but much more counterplay potential during fights.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
When you can VP twice before the enemy team gets their heroics lol
Yea... no... I'm still not seeing how hunt needs a nerf.... you just think he shouldn't be able to use his heroic during team fights? Sounds fair
Orochinagis
Member
Chromie got killed in WoW but she saved herself.
Cool, I guess the Starcraft skins are hints for the next hero
It's being used in CC chains in teamfights now, which is why it's a topic of discussion.
Of course, those CC chains usually involve Uther so....
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Should Illidan compare to Tyrael?
Is it fair that Illidan can interrupt Zeebos spirit heroic? It's a bad ability either way but arguing about fairness is pretty pointless.
That's exactly what I'm arguing he shouldn't be able to use his ult during team fights or have the stun removed for the reasons I've mentioned. Those being it doesn't fit his kit conceptually, it's not just used as intended and is off CD far too quick.
Is it fair that Illidan can interrupt Zeebos spirit heroic? It's a bad ability either way but arguing about fairness is pretty pointless.
Orochinagis
Member
Pls Blizzard, change tassadar to assassins role, 99% are going DPS route shielding themselves
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Not sure if it's a long con for the western clash but GFE is pretty much just picking cheese comps.
He definitely needs to get moved to Specialist, have his shields reduced and his damage buffed some to compensate.
His shields are way too good as is and actively make the game worse. (And I love Tassadar, I don't want to see him go away.)
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Was Illidan even used during the heyday of CC chains when Tyrande was busted? Hunt definitely started picking up steam as a pseudo global on ToD first.
Why I'm bringing it up now is because Illidan has been seeing tons of play recently in competitive and the ability started bugging me.
Why I'm bringing it up now is because Illidan has been seeing tons of play recently in competitive and the ability started bugging me.
???? it was used all the time in alpha especially on cursed and blackhearts, nova/illidan was a pretty common combo as was nova/tyrael, like at no point of time was hunt picked and the stun was not used to burst
meta was picked in competitive because it was overtuned and hunt is getting picked now because it's the more overtuned one, but outside of competitive ppl pick both ults and they use those ults the way they are supposed to be used
you don't pick illidan into chain cc
oh i mean competitive-wise if you don't like seeing hunt games I don't really know what to say, but as an ult it has existed for so long that to suggest there is something wrong w/ it confuses me (i see thats not what ur doing now tho)
meta was picked in competitive because it was overtuned and hunt is getting picked now because it's the more overtuned one, but outside of competitive ppl pick both ults and they use those ults the way they are supposed to be used
you don't pick illidan into chain cc
oh i mean competitive-wise if you don't like seeing hunt games I don't really know what to say, but as an ult it has existed for so long that to suggest there is something wrong w/ it confuses me (i see thats not what ur doing now tho)
If you're talking Kings of the Storm days, I honestly don't remember. The competitive scene as we've known it from Road to Blizzcon to C9 winning Blizzcon and on has always been Metamorphosis as far as I remember, however.
And no, it hasn't really been commonly used in pleb play either. Maybe in the lowest tiers, but literally ANY time it was picked it typically resulted in salt and flaming that they didn't pick Meta. There was absolute zero respect for that heroic for most of HOTS history. It's different now, obviously, but that's the way it has been almost without a blip.
EDIT: And to be clear, again, I'm not arguing for nerfing it. I think it's fine. Just saying it's not something we ever really saw a lot before.
And no, it hasn't really been commonly used in pleb play either. Maybe in the lowest tiers, but literally ANY time it was picked it typically resulted in salt and flaming that they didn't pick Meta. There was absolute zero respect for that heroic for most of HOTS history. It's different now, obviously, but that's the way it has been almost without a blip.
EDIT: And to be clear, again, I'm not arguing for nerfing it. I think it's fine. Just saying it's not something we ever really saw a lot before.
Hunt is fine as a global heroic but it giving Illidan CC is... not really a good thing when a drawback of picking the hero is supposed to be that he has 0 cc. It just wasn't picked enough in competitive to be an issue till now. (and this has a lot to do w/ Uther.)
And holy shit Glaurung is an awful Li Ming lol
And holy shit Glaurung is an awful Li Ming lol
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I looked it up and Meta was bodied 1 and a half and 2 or so years ago, there's been periods of Illidan play since and it's been straight Hunt since.
Towers of Doom was released at the end of 2015 and while it took time adjusting Illidan eventually became a viable strat on that map which carried over to Warhead Junction.
in conclusion if you ask someone that joined hots or watched competitive the past couple season he might not even know what the other heroic is for Illidan
That said Illidan is a bit of an ebb and flow metawise picking up steam and eventually being hard countered again, he sees play right now but might already be countered at the western clash.
Towers of Doom was released at the end of 2015 and while it took time adjusting Illidan eventually became a viable strat on that map which carried over to Warhead Junction.
in conclusion if you ask someone that joined hots or watched competitive the past couple season he might not even know what the other heroic is for Illidan
That said Illidan is a bit of an ebb and flow metawise picking up steam and eventually being hard countered again, he sees play right now but might already be countered at the western clash.
Where has Illidan seen play besides a spot game here or there since? I can't recall a time without Meta. Who was playing it? Did they win? I think the correct way to say that is that people would say is there an Illidan hero in the game? Not the heroic, but the whole hero.
And holy shit at that fight and then another fight and then another fight in mid on BoE.
Wow lol GG
Since he's existed? He's extraordinarily sticky w/ insane self-sustain and is definitely supposed to be a cleaner character, but the fact that his base kit has had 0 hard cc until Hunt came back in the Meta has been part of his design for eons.
Q as CC isn't the same as a root/stun/poly/etc.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
according to Masterleague.net he was picked or banned in 49% of games from the Greymane Patch up till the Samuro patch which is most of 2016 including Blizzcon.
Heck Dignitas main issue of 2016 was that they had no Illidan player, they cut wubby to pick up Alex so they'd free up jayPL to be melee flex including Illidan.
you can argue Azmodan has CC in his base kit that way because of his large body.
If you look at the builds, though, they are almost all Metamorphosis which was my point to begin with. When he was played, that's what people use.
I only see one match in that time frame that used The Hunt.
To be clear, I understand in an argument we're in there with the champ when trying to convince you of anything, but this is a weird hill to die on even for you IMO.
In pro play it's all hunt all the time now. That's why it's coming up and the "hmmm, is this really how this should be played?" is coming up as a design issue w/ hunt being used in short range CC chains.
It's similar to how Genji's E-through-terrain as an escape is completely infuriating and very unlikely to have been the original point of the ability.
Though good god, you gave him a jump over terrain ability, why would you give him a second one when it doesn't work like that in OW?
It's similar to how Genji's E-through-terrain as an escape is completely infuriating and very unlikely to have been the original point of the ability.
Though good god, you gave him a jump over terrain ability, why would you give him a second one when it doesn't work like that in OW?
his q is rehgar lvl 16 e on someone, have you guys never used q as a cc? have you never had someone running away and you q'd them and suddenly your entire team was able to catch up?
do you guys really think of illidan this way, since alpha it's been a bad idea to take fights with illidan in large spaces or to overextend in lane w/ him mia
like maybe I just assumed too much, but literally the first day I played him I thought "wow this guy is really good at stopping someone and it has such a low cd"
like maybe im misusing the word in a technical sense, but q has always rang out as cc in my head
do you guys really think of illidan this way, since alpha it's been a bad idea to take fights with illidan in large spaces or to overextend in lane w/ him mia
like maybe I just assumed too much, but literally the first day I played him I thought "wow this guy is really good at stopping someone and it has such a low cd"
like maybe im misusing the word in a technical sense, but q has always rang out as cc in my head
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
oh wow you're right, where they stupid? they even picked meta on towers and cursed hollow.
I honestly would like to see an ability with a reverse radius, though, like I suggested above. Not saying it needs to be The Hunt, just think it'd be interesting. I feel like there's some League abilities that are like that (ie: you can only target them at a distance).
No clue on that. I blanked on him even being picked that much last year. Was that when Rehgar was OP as hell too?
No clue on that. I blanked on him even being picked that much last year. Was that when Rehgar was OP as hell too?
Yeah, this is a definitional issue. When we say "CC" in this context, we mean hard CC.
He's always been soft CC, of course, which is why the "heavy slow" as a change (a la Varian) would be fine as well- but I really like the "slow at short range, stun at long" idea.
if there's an issue in design it's that metamorphosis is too good of an ult in concept for a hero like illidan.
the only reason meta isnt being played is that it gives no real stat benefit until 20 now, and even then it should be picked if you are picking one of those lvl 20 spike comps since lvl 20 meta is WAY better than hunt. meta gives pretty much everything illidan wants: health, atspd, cc reduc, another outplay tool.
whenever grouping happens hunt loses an amazing amount of value and it's main use becomes helping in blowing one character up, before you could get meta at 10 and it was a great spike but hunt was always better if you wanted to speed the game up or on larger maps that discourage grouping.
like the situation is basically now welp I have to pick hunt now if I want to get anything at lvl 10, I can kind of understand if ppl dont like watching hunt as a spectator (pro global hunt lvl 20 games back in the day were awesome tho but they took that out) but to target the ult itself is really weird
oh yeah, to me hard cc just means losing complete control of your character and soft means having control but your character has been changed. I think of silence as cc too
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
So upon further research Hunt is just a 2017 thing, it started on global maps and was propagated by either chinese or koreans.
Throughout phase 1 stage 1 you'd get the occassional hunt but at large metamorphosis was still picked and illidan a rare sight. So much so that there wasn't a single Illidan game during the western clash recorded in masterleague's database
The eastern clash might be responsible that the Asian regions were stagnant at the mid season brawl.
Throughout phase 1 stage 1 you'd get the occassional hunt but at large metamorphosis was still picked and illidan a rare sight. So much so that there wasn't a single Illidan game during the western clash recorded in masterleague's database
The eastern clash might be responsible that the Asian regions were stagnant at the mid season brawl.
hunts been go to since meta was last nerfed, like yeah you had a period where ppl tried to stay loyal to it but look at this
sweet i do 48 damage and I might get 1000 health if their team is dumb and pretends they are being graviton surged
no one with a brain will pick this ult now unless they are going for 20
the meta/hunt distribution back then is prob similar to the wrath/leap distribution now, you still picked hunt when it made more sense than meta
prob get leap complaining if it ever becomes goto again too (which would happen if wrath got the hunt treatment and got it's cc reduc put at 20 )
sweet i do 48 damage and I might get 1000 health if their team is dumb and pretends they are being graviton surged
no one with a brain will pick this ult now unless they are going for 20
the meta/hunt distribution back then is prob similar to the wrath/leap distribution now, you still picked hunt when it made more sense than meta
prob get leap complaining if it ever becomes goto again too (which would happen if wrath got the hunt treatment and got it's cc reduc put at 20 )
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
More importantly than it's viability is that it just doesn't feel rewarding now, the ability doesn't pack a punch until 20. They might as well put bolt of the storm there.
People pick bad talents for dumb reasons but there's not even dumb reasons to pick meta.
People pick bad talents for dumb reasons but there's not even dumb reasons to pick meta.
It got picked in the last R20 game but that's because Hunt's global is actively useless on BoE and they didn't have any CC to chain into.
it legitimately does not give anything of real value at 10 now whereas hunt is as valuable as it ever was, and hunt still has the same weaknesses of not being great on small maps or maps that encourage grouping, it's still countered heavily by positioning or just general awareness of the map.
Ya, the point of the discussion isn't to nerf Hunt's upsides, it's raising the "should it really have this niche upside" in an era where the devs have heavily, heavily cut back on hard CC.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
My idea of Illidan is a highly mobile melee assassin that can effortlessly weave in and out of combat. He's disruptive through stickiness not through slows, roots, stuns etc.
You're right that Q puts him in a position to bodyblock but I would not consider bodyblocking what is commonly referred to as CC.
Wrt to rehgar E, that's what I started with as a potential change to hunt as there's further distinction between soft and hard CC. IIRC devs went on record that they do massive slows when they give heroes "stuns" that aren't stuns. As a result rehgar can't stop channeled abilities.