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[Adam Blue]

I can understand how this may make someone uncomfortable, but what's the end-goal? If anything it's still shedding a light on this medium that tells everyone it's still maturing. When in fact, scenes like this are depicted across mediums and are typically not outed in this fashion.

This is just another example of the disparity between mediums and the maturing that gamers themselves need to do before we can convince everyone that the medium is mature.

 

[jakonovski]

"You want depraved, I'll give you depraved!"

"Oh my god that's too much, I just wanted gore and dead bodies!"

"Maybe you should reflect on your banal thirst for depravity."

 

[kittens]

The problem I have with this sort of comment is that every time someone reacts to a piece of media in a way like this, everybody else has to freak out about the implications like YOU'RE NOT MAKING GAMES ART and YOU'RE CENSORSHIP and WELL NOW IT'S ALL DONE GOOFED!

Like, can we not just have people perceiving media honestly? Do we not ask for that from games writers? Perhaps this sort of conversation is a step closer to adult criticism of games as art as opposed to what we've passed off as journalism in the past.

Totally. If games are ever going to grow as a medium, this sort of critique and scrutiny needs to be taken more seriously by fans.

 

[Mzo]

The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo did this and won nearly every independent film award on the circuit.

Or you could take it to the source and go to books, which get away with so much more than any other medium when it comes to graphic violence of any sort. The Game of Thrones series is an underage girl rape smorgasbord, even when compared to the TV show (which advances everyone's age to at least 18).

I think it's because the people who tend to cry outrage don't read or (more importantly) their dumb kids don't read.

I do agree that discussion should exist as long a nobody is calling for the content to be removed. People having meaningful reactions to video games is something that should happen more often, like with deeply personal games such as Papo & Yo. That's a sign of growth.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

I think it'd be a good idea to edit the op with a link to the video seeing as people are missing it.

 

[inky]

It really depends on context. Making you perform a rape isn't really "exploring" adult themes. It's making something horrible into a game mechanic. The adult part of adult themes means more than just titillating or sadistic (or should at least.)

It's all about the context so I'd like to see the actual scene in question to make a judgement about it.

It is absolutely exploring adult themes. It's not a game mechanic, it is a cut-scene on a fictional movie set inside the game. Presumably, this is a movie being shot with content you are supposed to find disgusting, but is being produced and sold and you are facing the implications of such things. Actors are performing these parts. The scene is trying to give a context for the fictional universe it is taking place in, the kind of fucked up people who live there and the sort of things they do and live with. It is also there to provide shock value, as much as decapitations and exploding heads are.

Violence is indeed a game mechanic, and together with the psychedelic art-style it is trying to color the setting and tell an adult story. The game is enjoyable but it is trying to say something, as bluntly as that might be.

 

[Acquiescence]

I'm getting flashbacks to all that controversy surrounding Tomb Raider and its "rape scene." Controversy that amounted to absolutely nothing whatsoever in the context of the finished game.

 

[toastyToast]

Rape is terrible but so are a lot of other things that are freely depicted. Murdering people in games is fine but dealing real death and violence; it's so far removed that making that dissociation is fine for any sane individual. What is it about rape that makes it so special?

 

[BigDug13]

So she should keep her mouth shut then?

Censoring is ok when it stops people being mean over videogames?

Nobody is saying she should keep her mouth shut! Damn where do you see that in my post? Calm down!

I'm just saying that is a fear people have when articles start popping up with controversy. That's all I'm fucking saying, geez.

 

[GuardianE]

The problem is that this isn't rape. It's implied rape that IMMEDIATELY steps back from the edge in a manner that's very clearly designed to elicit a response to the rape implication had it happened. Discussion about how that specific moment made the person feel, or how that person would've felt had the act actually taken place, or how it made the person feel vs. the constant violence that is Hotline Miami are all well and fine. It becomes an issue when people start slamming the game for something that didn't happen, and instead seem like they can't control they're own emotions to properly criticize the experience.

Feeling "betrayed" seems like overkill especially in the context of what actually happens. "Disgusted" is okay, IN THE MOMENT, but after the director yells cut, it's time for the person to take a step back and think about why they felt so uncomfortable in that moment, but totally fine KILLING enemies in brutal displays of violence.

I think this is an interesting perspective on the scene. One I hadn't really considered, the possibility that it was trying to tap into pretty much the discussion of this thread itself.

 

[Conciliator]

is this woman not allowed to have an opinion?

she explains why she feels that way and acknowledges that it's a bit hypocritical, but hey that's how people's feelings work

everyone is more sensitive to some things than others, you can't just say that she's a bad person or stupid because violence doesn't get to her the same way rape does

i liked the first game and even without rape scenes it made me feel a bit gross and weirded out, so it's entirely possible this will fit it perfectly but i don't expect every single person in the world to react to it the same way i do

yeah, some people are acting like she's leading a boycott, but she's just writing about her personal subjective experience. It's OK for her to have a negative emotional reaction.

 

[Coffee Dog]

The point of the scene is to offend, disgust, and to generate contemplation on why exactly that bothers you.

The scene is doing its purpose wonderfully.

 

[UrbanRats]

The problem is that this isn't rape. It's implied rape that IMMEDIATELY steps back from the edge in a manner that's very clearly designed to elicit a response to the rape implication had it happened. Discussion about how that specific moment made the person feel, or how that person would've felt had the act actually taken place, or how it made the person feel vs. the constant violence that is Hotline Miami are all well and fine. It becomes an issue when people start slamming the game for something that didn't happen, and instead seem like they can't control they're own emotions to properly criticize the experience.

Feeling "betrayed" seems like overkill especially in the context of what actually happens. "Disgusted" is okay, IN THE MOMENT, but after the director yells cut, it's time for the person to take a step back and think about why they felt so uncomfortable in that moment, but totally fine KILLING enemies in brutal displays of violence.

I'm fine with discussing the arguments brought forward in the article, i did so myself.
I'm saying that a lot of people here obviously didn't read it and jumped the gun, because they only associated a perceived opinion with a preconceived, general position.
Instead of reading the article and responding to its actual content.

 

[FourMyle]

I also feel the rape scene was a little forced

 

[jetjevons]

That is a nasty scene. It makes me extremely uncomfortable. Which I guess is the whole point?

 

[Salsa]

cant wait

would have prefered to not have this spoiled, you dawg

 

[KaiserBecks]

I read the article and I'm confused as fuck. What is she actually trying to say? Murder is ok, because the victims obviously don't survive, but rape will upset people who experienced sexual violence...so rape isn't ok?

 

[aeolist]

the lack of empathetic understanding on this board is really sad

how hard is it to understand that some people are bothered by things that don't bother you?

i'm not afraid of spiders but lots of people obviously are, does that mean i should go into threads where people say "oh man i couldn't play through scene x of game y because the giant spider creeped me out so hard" and respond with "you hypocrite, why weren't you bothered by the snake monsters then? trying to censor spiders from games, people like you are what's wrong with the industry"

 

[Dylan]

I can see PC Gamer's real issue though.

Instead of you seeing this scene in the privacy of your own home, suddenly you're surrounded by bunches of people watching you while your 8bit character "rapes" another 8bit character.

Since I haven't played the game myself, couldn't it be assumed that they're filming a sex scene that is rough? Nothing is wrong with kinky sex, so does the other character say no? Does she say to stop? Does he kill her after sex?

I mean, there is only hearsay to go on, we don't really know what's actually happening in the game.

it's on youtube. He shoots her , mounts her, and she struggles. It's pretty obvious.

 

[VARIA]

Perhaps those rape scenes make her feel uncomfortable too?

She's not calling for HM2 to be censored or anything. She wrote a preview for the game and wrote about how it made her feel.

I understand but I find it interesting that someone could stomach high levels of fictionalized ultra violence yet another form of fictionalized violence crosses the line. I know this is her opinion and how it made her feel but to say that she felt "betrayed" by this product that is known to be tasteless is kinda stretching it in my eyes.

 

[Lowlander2]

I'm mostly waiting until the final product, with all context possible, to draw a conclusion.

Basically, I think the devs are smarter than to just reveal that scene in impromptu fashion, in a climate which they are no doubt highly aware of, and not have some form of ulterior motive. Considering the absurdist trappings of the first game's storytelling, I'll be surprised if they aren't trying to do something other than eliciting cheap shock reactions. I just think they're smarter than just getting under people's skin for fun.

But hey, I could be wrong, and if I am, I will gladly stuff that crow down my throat. Livestream it, if I must.

 

[anexanhume]

Rape is terrible but so are a lot of other things that are freely depicted. Murdering people in games is fine but dealing real death and violence; it's so far removed that making that dissociation is fine for any sane individual. What is it about rape that makes it so special?

Rape is not an objective based action. You need to kill 5 guys to get from A to B. There's no logical scenario in which you need to rape them instead.

Second, you're often taking away the will to fight (equal combatant) with rape. The other person is often vulnerable and being taken advantage of. They're not trying to rape you and you have to rape them first as it works with killing. There's no way you can construe yourself as defending yourself from them as you can in a combat situation. They are always the victim.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

cant wait

would have prefered to not have this spoiled, you dawg

Oh yeah, still excited to play this. Own the first one on PC/PS3/Vita.

 

[Mesoian]

Is Pig Man the first playable "rapist" in a non-pornographic video game?

Clocktower 5

Sorry, no. Haunting Ground, bad ending.

 

[Fantastical]

the game depicts a scene where an unnamed female enemy is attacked before the words 'Finish Her' appear on the screen.

Isn't this part untrue? I didn't see "Finish Her" anywhere in the video.

 

[Incandenza]

The "So we accept brutal murder but not rape, now?" argument seems a little irrelevant to me considering you were not supposed to accept the violence in Hotline Miami. The point of all the hangover-y interludes with you renting movies and such was to keep you from isolating the violence from any real-world context and thus rationalizing it into being okay. Your motives for killing were abstracted and obscured so you were forced to be violent for more-or-less no reason other than the violence itself. The interesting thing about Hotline Miami is not just its ultraviolence but the way it strips away any opportunity for you to rationalize that violence.

Now, seeing this, it seems like the culmination of that idea. In the context of the game, the rape is against an innocent and is not at all necessary (at least from what I can tell from this video, not counting the pull-back of it being revealed as a movie), thus making it pretty much the apex of sadism-as-pleasure as depicted in the franchise (as much of it as I have seen, anyway).

The feeling of betrayal and anger at the game makes sense, since in a game of fucked-up-things-you-can't-rationalize, this is perhaps the most fucked up and least rationalize-able. People are angry about it? I should fucking hope so. If they aren't, then either the game isn't operating correctly or they aren't operating correctly. What makes the game interesting is its glorification of violence with the precise purpose of making you feel bad about participating in that glorification.

 

[Zaventem]

I can see PC Gamer's real issue though.

Instead of you seeing this scene in the privacy of your own home, suddenly you're surrounded by bunches of people watching you while your 8bit character "rapes" another 8bit character.

Since I haven't played the game myself, couldn't it be assumed that they're filming a sex scene that is rough? Nothing is wrong with kinky sex, so does the other character say no? Does she say to stop? Does he kill her after sex?

I mean, there is only hearsay to go on, we don't really know what's actually happening in the game.

This is the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beUrlDwf56w&t=1m5s

 

[NinjamicWZ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZdmfbuUFBg

 

[Kopite]

Hope the devs aren't bullied into changing anything. The game should be as they intended..

 

[Afrodium]

This scene has done its job. I'm sure the makers did not add this scene to glorify rape, but rather to make the player feel disgusted and uncomfortable. The original Hotline Miami was often unsettling with its amount of gore and violence, and this was done intentionally. There is nothing wrong with this being in the game.

That said, the amount of posters in here defending rape on the basis of murder being worse is a bit scary. Rape is a terrible and awful thing, and many people would consider it a fate worse than death. Its a violation of oneself and is an extremely sensitive subject to many women. To claim that no one is allowed to get upset over rape because they're not also outraged over violence is silly. Rape is something that effects the lives of many men and women, the threat of being shot by Master Chief is not. It's a sensitive and delicate subject, and respecting its sensitivity will be something that videogames must learn to do if they are to incorporate it. Blindly defending any presence of rape in a videogame because murder is 'worse' is not the way to achieve this.

 

[Kinyou]

That is a nasty scene. It makes me extremely uncomfortable. Which I guess is the whole point?

It certainly doesn't glorify it in any way.

 

[aeolist]

rape is terrible and murder is terrible

being bothered by rape and not by murder doesn't make her or anyone else a hypocrite because sexual violence is a much more immediate and real fear or past experience for lots and lots of people

 

[SmokyDave]

It's an absolutely disgusting scene.

I think that might be the idea.

 

[JABEE]

it crosses the line for her, it doesn't for you and lots of people here. that's fine.

nobody is rallying to boycott or censor this game

I agree with you. My problem was more with others propping up "the line."

 

[inky]

What makes the game interesting is its glorification of violence with the precise purpose of making you feel bad about participating in that glorification.

Which is why "feeling betrayed" by the content of the game is the wrong response to it, because it implies you weren't feeling betrayed until that very point; in fact, you were enjoying the content. I'm sorry, but when I watched the movie Irreversible I didn't fucking enjoy any minute of it and I have only watched it once since then.

 

[aeolist]

I agree with you. My problem was more with others propping up "the line."

who exactly is doing this? and why do you think that people saying it crosses a line mean that it shouldn't exist or should be boycotted?

when games cross a line for me i just don't buy them, i imagine that's what most people here mean

 

[BigDes]

I agree with you. My problem was more with others propping up "the line."

Perhaps it crosses the line for them as well?

 

[CaptainGyro]

I wonder if anybody is also going to be offended by the fact that the director says " and you there Blondie, you need to work on your feminity..act more helpless and scared...you know...more girly!" and use that to say the game is sexist

 

[Hot Coldman]

I kinda fucking hated all the bits of HM1 that weren't actual missions, glad to see nothing's changed there.

 

[Dylan]

I find it laughable that people are defending Hotline Miami as some sort of creative masterpiece with a social-boundary-pushing "vision".

Lol, sons. It's a good game but let's not give them too much credit. It's still juvenile wankery in the end.

 

[Tain]

this is okay since the game is so indie right

 

[aeolist]

Which is why "feeling betrayed" by the content of the game is the wrong response to it.

here come the reaction police to let us know how we're allowed to feel about artistic endeavors

you are in no position to tell anyone that they can't be creeped out by rape

 

[Gvaz]

This is the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beUrlDwf56w&t=1m5s

It's like 1 second long

and immediately after the director talks about that it's "pretend" and didn't happen

That's what it seems like anyways

 

[MormaPope]

the lack of empathetic understanding on this board is really sad

how hard is it to understand that some people are bothered by things that don't bother you?

i'm not afraid of spiders but lots of people obviously are, does that mean i should go into threads where people say "oh man i couldn't play through scene x of game y because the giant spider creeped me out so hard" and respond with "you hypocrite, why weren't you bothered by the snake monsters then? trying to censor spiders from games, people like you are what's wrong with the industry"

I'm confused, not many people are asking for this woman to be silenced or that this discussion has no merit. What a lot of people are doing is voicing their assertions back at her discussion.

People not responding to an assertion warmly isn't lack of empathy, its simple disagreement.

 

[kiunchbb]

It will be more weird if a psychopath with zero human value isn't a rapist. As long as it serve as part of the story I don't see what's wrong with it.

 

[SmokyDave]

I find it laughable that people are defending Hotline Miami as some sort of creative masterpiece with a social-boundary-pushing "vision".

Lol, sons. It's a good game but let's not give them too much credit. It's still juvenile wankery in the end.

I didn't feel that way at all. I found the surreal and uncomfortable story extremely refreshing. It stuck with me and no matter how many times I replay the game, I still enjoy all the cutscenes.

 

[mrhGB]

Your inability to connect fictional depictions to real emotions sounds like a deficit.

If my biggest shortcoming is not getting upset over 8bit pixel rape I think I can live with it. After watching the video I'm even more shocked that people are getting so upset over it, it's not even rape, they're filming a scene for a movie within the game.

 

[kittens]

The thing about rape scenes is that they need to be done with extreme care. It's incredibly easy to make them a mere throw away plot device, a male power fantasy, or a male sexual fantasy. We live in a world where rape is a real, daily threat to millions of women (yes, especially women). It's different than murder in that murder is not a gendered crime. Rape is a gendered crime, because it's primarily acted upon women. The goal is to psychologically put women "in their place". To subjugate them. To disempower them. To violate them and break them down. It's a weapon used primarily by men and primarily against women to reinforce patriarchy.

This thread totally disgusts me. How some of you can defend this shit is so beyond my understanding. And it's clear that many of you don't take it seriously. That's a problem. We need to take rape seriously.

 

[Jawmuncher]

Just saw the scene.
Needless to say I personally don't have a problem with it. Though obviously I can see why others might. Regardless in this day and age just about anything can be offensive. In the end I feel if it's the creators decision on what he wants in the game. He should never have to change his vision because someone else dislikes it.

 

[UrbanRats]

I kinda fucking hated all the bits of HM1 that weren't actual missions, glad to see nothing's changed there.

I thought they were wonderful.
Part of why it's my GOTY 2012, one of the few games in recent years where i actually felt something while playing, that wasn't simple "fun".