Support NeoGAF

[KXVXII9X]

But zelda still took 6 years lol. One year longer than horizon fw.

Mario odyssey was released in 2017. It will be 7 years before a true sequel launches.

I think fromsoft just has the two teams part down. They just go in and make games instead of fucking around prototyping.

That is because more of the work went to gameplay and polish. Having.all.ofnthose.physics working together in a large open world is no easy task.

 

[Shut0wen]

Like Nintendo they do not target AAA graphics. No interest in getting into a debate about art direction.

I was about to say this, they dont give to shits about graphics and there art speaks volumes, plus they work have worked on the same engine since dark souls

 

[Shut0wen]

But zelda still took 6 years lol. One year longer than horizon fw.

Mario odyssey was released in 2017. It will be 7 years before a true sequel launches.

I think fromsoft just has the two teams part down. They just go in and make games instead of fucking around prototyping.

But zelda and mario are made by the same division they release a game a year i dont get what your point is when they are literally putting out way more games then fromsoftware

 

[Mister Wolf]

I was about to say this, they dont give to shits about graphics and there art speaks volumes, plus they work have worked on the same engine since dark souls

I actually prefer it to be that way because I get games faster. Falcom is one of my favorite developers because they stay pumping out Trails and Ys games. Ys X looks great.

 

[Shut0wen]

Retaining the majority of staff who have worked on an old game to then move over to the new one seems to be the secret to efficient development without dev hell problems which seem common given the challenge of making big AAA games on modern hardware.

Echoed by Hamaguchi recently who's directing FF7 Rebirth.

Also how does poop like Skull and Bones and Suicide Squad spend something like 8 years in development and still release in such a broken or poor state?

Because both games had a vision that wasnt achievable gameplay wise and in the hardware department, seriously a majority of big game developers that run into these problems end up spiralling into chaos because of budget reasons duke nukem forever went through the same shit

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

But zelda and mario are made by the same division they release a game a year i dont get what your point is when they are literally putting out way more games then fromsoftware

Mario Odyssey and Zelda BOTW happen only once per generation. Those are the only games with the same scope as From's. You cannot compare their productions 1:1.

 

[xBlueStonex]

Japan is just way ahead of the US in terms of getting games out.

Because the Japanese have no problem working in office, whereas Americans consider anything but remote work from their pajamas as oppressive. The results speak for themselves.

 

[NoLootBoxDev]

Yep. I see all these layoffs and I’m like whatever happened to cultivating talent? Experience in any industry i s key and if you are laying off people who spent 2+ years learning a new engine only to be laid off, you have essentially wasted two years of training.

I saw a post, I am not sure if it was from here or another place, but it was on the lines of:

The people in power are the ones who laughed at the people who liked games (at high school or school). As they got into business positions, they did not give a shit about the developers or anyone below them, so these people in control did not care about anything else more than making bad decisions, and trying to push for endless growth, because they do not understand anything else other than those two things, and still laugh at the people making the games.

Pretty much:

 

[Danjin44]

Because the Japanese have no problem working in office, whereas Americans consider anything but remote work from their pajamas as oppressive. The results speak for themselves.

 

[Shut0wen]

Mario Odyssey and Zelda BOTW happen only once per generation. Those are the only games with the same scope as From's. You cannot compare their productions 1:1.

so pikmin 4, mario wonder, splatoon 3 dont have massive scopes? Im sorry but fromsoftwares only game with a huge scope has only been elden ring but souls franchise and sekiro are literal budgeted games that work well

 

[64bitmodels]

Also how does poop like Skull and Bones and Suicide Squad spend something like 8 years in development and still release in such a broken or poor state?

If the Forza Motorsport story is any indication they were probably cycling employees in and out and retaining no talent. Unlike, yk, japanese developers

Also Ubisoft were obligated to finish skull and bones

 

[Shut0wen]

If the Forza Motorsport story is any indication they were probably cycling employees in and out and retaining no talent. Unlike, yk, japanese developers

Also Ubisoft were obligated to finish skull and bones

Nah they got a 120 million grant from some government and realised the game they were making was shit so went through a load of changes

 

[Last Hearth]

Nah they got a 120 million grant from some government and realised the game they were making was shit so went through a load of changes

Government spending tax payer money to make games ends up being a waste of money, who could have predicted that?

 

[WitchHunter]

remembering the recent post about their new studio, & some comments about how 'sterile' it looked. i'm thinking maybe these people just come to work every day prepared to work?...

They don't tell people, that the enemies from Bloodborne are present at the offices and make sure that everyone is concentrating on their tasks ; DD. You go out too often to smoke cigarettes... a maneater boar appears, and awards you with a YOU DIED t-shirt. Plus Miyazaki puts the berserk sign on the back of your neck. Maybe you get a non disposable crimson beherit too if you are a repeat offender.

---

Maybe coz they don't rewrite the whole fn game from scratch 3 years into development... because someone, somewhere seen that a competing studio included a four arsed monkey in their game and now having a crisis, thinking that without that 4arsed monkey the game will be ruined.

 

[killatopak]

Another example is RGG studio.

Japan has come a long way from their downturn in the PS3. Western studios seems to be the one struggling to release games on a timely manner this time.

 

[skit_data]

I think they've simply managed to strike a pretty well balance between fidelity and gameplay. They're lucky enough to have designed very solid basics in terms of gameplay and can reiterate upon those fundamentals.

 

[AngelMuffin]

They are efficient at their work and put their resources on things that matters most instead of trying to make graphic whores happy (which is impossible task because they are never satisfied).

*performance whores

Typically these discussions center around frame pacing, stuttering, & jank.

 

[nial]

Like Nintendo they do not target AAA graphics. No interest in getting into a debate about art direction.

Nintendo EPD Kyoto and Tokyo are sadly inefficient as fuck.

 

[Represent.]

The graphic haters in this thread are out to lunch loll. Them having shit graphics has nothing to do with their quantity output. They simply work hard and are efficient, no real lay offs.

Insomniac has great graphics and their output is just as good as From

 

[JayK47]

Different work ethic and culture. Not woke. I doubt they have to sit through hours every week of training and meetings telling them they need to make their games more diverse and inclusive. They do not waste time arguing about pronouns. I could go on and on. The point is, they are focused on what matters and do not fuck about with stupid pointless shit. And as we can tell, their games are not only better, but they can make more in less time. Wow. No way!

 

[AJUMP23]

Planning and discipline and talent. Keep it up.

 

[Zephyranthes]

You mean to tell me that being committed to recruiting, developing, and retaining talented people leads to success?

 

[bitbydeath]

No diversity hires that are useless as their jobs and create knitting classes.

 

[JordiENP]

Because let's be real, I love Souls game but they have been using the same gameplay template for more than a decade.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Imagine keeping staff permanently instead of using 18 month contracts to avoid paying benefits

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Going back the to the trainwreck Skull & Bones thread where UBI has a disaster game all because they chased government subsidies without having the talent in Singapore to lead a game from beginning to end. UBI Singapore is a support studio.

So like any company, you'll get best results if they hire competent people who prioritize doing their job best as possible in terms of quality, budget and on time. Doesn't matter if it's people making video games sitting at desks or people making bagels in a giant kitchen.

The second the culture turns into trash with bad skills, bad attitude and laziness, the company is fucked. Good luck hoping the game ships on time, within budget and gets good reviews.

 

[Stooky]

They are efficient at their work and put their resources on things that matters most instead of trying to make graphic whores happy (which is impossible task because they are never satisfied).

stop being so extra,they don’t have the budget for it. that’s not bad thing. for what they do they make great games.

 

[FunkMiller]

Treat your employees with respect, pay them properly, provide them with benefits, and make the workplace a healthy place to be.

Profit.

 

[Danjin44]

stop being so extra,they don’t have the budget for it. that’s not bad thing. for what they do they make great games.

I couldn't care less if game has big budget or not, throwing money at the game doesn't make it better. Even they had limited budget they know how to use their limited resource efficiently to make phenomenal game.

Cant say the same about most AAA or AAAA games with high budget and resources.


Heck this movie just out shined most Hollywood movies with half the budget.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I couldn't care less if game has big budget or not, throwing money at the game doesn't make it better. Even they had limited budget they know how to use their limited resource efficiently to make phenomenal game.

Cant say the same about most AAA or AAAA games with high budget and resources.

Throwing money at a project can help if things are quality and just needs a bit more time or money to finish it off. But if a product is already a trainwreck, tossing money at it wont help. All it will do is get it to the finish line so it can at least be sold. So as crap as it is, the company can at least salvage sales from a shit product burning customers who took the plunge.

But holistically, big budgets dont mean much to me when it comes to media IMO. Entertainment is subjective and even low budget stuff can be enjoyed. If big budgets guaranteed success, every superhero TV show or movie would be highest quality ever with their giant budgets. While low budget flicks like Reservoir Dogs, Goodfellas and Michael Moore stuff would be bottom of the barrel boring. Nope.

 

[Astral Dog]

God bless Japan

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I couldn't care less if game has big budget or not, throwing money at the game doesn't make it better. Even they had limited budget they know how to use their limited resource efficiently to make phenomenal game.

Cant say the same about most AAA or AAAA games with high budget and resources.


Heck this movie just out shined most Hollywood movies with half the budget.

Literally 5%, or 1/20th the budget

G-1 cost around $13 million, your average Hollywood shitty woke capeshit film is like $250 million these days

 

[Danjin44]

Literally 5%, or 1/20th the budget

G-1 cost around $13 million, your average Hollywood shitty woke capeshit film is like $250 million these days

Thats fucking crazy! WTF is Hollywood doing?

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Thats fucking crazy! WTF is Hollywood doing?

Not just films.

Google it. Some She-Hulk TV episodes can somehow cost $25M each. A blank cheque kind of industry. Anything goes. Any budget goes.

 

[Danjin44]

Not just films.

Google it. Some She-Hulk TV episodes can somehow cost $25M each. A blank cheque kind of industry. Anything goes. Any budget goes.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

it also helps there are not aiming for the best graphics and performance.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

Here's their secret
Low pay and lots of overwork, just like Nipponeses love.

Elden Ring Developer FromSoftware Is Reportedly Paying Below Average Salaries To Its Staff

The Japanese studio makes highly regarded games, but its staff aren't enjoying the spoils.

www.thegamer.com

 

[OGM_Madness]

Wasn't there a 3 year gap between Dark Souls 3 and Sekiro? Then another 3 years between Sekiro and Elden Ring. I wouldn't say they release games that frequently.

The gap had 2 DS3 DLCs. I wouldn’t call the DLC a Full Game worth of content, but it was still fun and interesting.

3 years is not a lot of time, when most games are taking anywhere between 5-7 years to make nowadays.

Also, not From Software, but we got Demon’s Souls Remake in that time too, so the wait wasn’t so excruciating.

 

[Radical Dreamer]

They make the same game for 15 years and they're not AAA. Its fine to be a fan and still acknowledge basic truths.

They are not AAA because you said so? XD

 

[lh032]

i mean its japanese salary men culture.
YOu dont see union or protest much in countries like Japan.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Literally just told other studios to get good

 

[Danjin44]

They are not AAA because you said so? XD

Yeah I'm so confused by this, is AAA solely determined by graphics? because Pokemon games are considered AAA but graphics on those is pretty piss poor even for Switch.

 

[Johnny Concrete]

Because the Japanese have no problem working in office, whereas Americans consider anything but remote work from their pajamas as oppressive. The results speak for themselves.

I recall Kojima saying in a recent interview that most of his studio also works from home.

 

[Kings Field]

The west is lazy anymore when it comes to work. Activision has dogs and cats at work and some of their staff just sits around playing with the animals all day.

You don’t see that in Japan. Even if they work from home they still work because they put love and pride into their shit.

 

[Nickolaidas]

They make the same game for 15 years and they're not AAA. Its fine to be a fan and still acknowledge basic truths.

Isn't that what 95% of other devs do with their IPs? Same formula over and over with slight improvements over time?

 

[RaduN]

All their games use basically the same exact formula, just with different aestethics. No actual narrative, just lore related items, virtually no VA. These are some of the things that take a lot of time to do at AAA level.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

The west is lazy anymore when it comes to work. Activision has dogs and cats at work and some of their staff just sits around playing with the animals all day.

You don’t see that in Japan. Even if they work from home they still work because they put love and pride into their shit.

You dont that shit in almost all workplaces. Nor ping pong tables, free food and drinks, company sponsored knitting and cooking clubs, or showing up to work sloppy looking like you came to work wearing what you slept in, or any other chill out perks or attitudes leading to zero sense of urgency. That kind of stuff (along with bring your pet to work days) is the kind of stuff you see in tech.

 

[Guilty_AI]

The gap had 2 DS3 DLCs. I wouldn’t call the DLC a Full Game worth of content, but it was still fun and interesting.

3 years is not a lot of time, when most games are taking anywhere between 5-7 years to make nowadays.

Also, not From Software, but we got Demon’s Souls Remake in that time too, so the wait wasn’t so excruciating.

But none of the From games released since DS3 were sequels to anything (from anything recent at least). Even if you were to consider Elden Ring a Dark souls sequel, there was still a wait of 6 years in-between.

Take Obsidian for example, in this same time period they released PoE 1&2, Tyranny, The Outer Worlds, Grounded and Pentiment, not counting DLCs. Admittedly some of these aren't as close to an AAA title as From games, but they're still fairly in-depth RPGs.

Another example is Owlcat Games which made 3 large scale RPGs from 2018 to 2023 with shitton of DLCs in-between.

 

[Ribi]

Reusing assets from 2009 helps

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

All their games use basically the same exact formula, just with different aestethics. No actual narrative, just lore related items, virtually no VA. These are some of the things that take a lot of time to do at AAA level.

So, according to this, The Order, Detroit Become Human, and Hellblade are more AAA than From's games. Of course not. Scope matters. From's, Zelda's and Mihoyo's games are HUGE in scope, regardless of graphics. They are undoubtedly AAA.

There is more variety in From games than in any franchise of any other studio. Top studios like Naughty Dog, Insomniac, or Rockstar don't have that variety in their games. Not only in design/mechanics but in worldbuilding, too.

"not actual narrative" Yeah, because it's so easy to make an environmental narrative (which demands MASTERY at the craft) instead of dumbed-down cinematics with exposition dialogue. From's narrative is so poor that Neil Druckman himself wanted to make a game like that but couldn't. Because it's a question of skills, besides will.

The same stuff is said about Hollow Knight, which is the best From's pupil. Telling a story like this is more difficult than what most developers do. From don't have AIs to write the lore in their games, it's talented writers who do it and everything in the game has a meaning, from weapons design to MUSIC. That takes time and talent.

The only studio with a production level comparable to From is Mihoyo (reason why it has so many haters), but that's a story for another thread.