MilkyJoe
Member
Not shocking ha ha
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How does Neogaf feel about the Last Jedi?
- Thread starter RoyBrown7777
- Start date
Not shocking ha ha
#Phonepunk#
Banned
over on ResetEra they had a recent poll "is it a good movie?" and it was nearly split down the middle, and that is the most liberal and Disney-friendly place i've ever seen on the internet.
we can beat around the bush looking for reasons why but it's pretty obvious that the film was not as well received as it could - as it should - have been.
we can beat around the bush looking for reasons why but it's pretty obvious that the film was not as well received as it could - as it should - have been.
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cryptoadam
Banned
Part 1 isn't bad, Anakin should of been older.
Part 2 sucks and the CGI is horrible. OMG its really bad.
Part 3 is the best of the bunch and is a decent pop corn flick. Part 3 was really the only movie that needed to be made and Parts 1 and 2 are pretty much made useless by Part 3.
And parts 2 and 3 are completely ruined by Hayden. He is a horrible Anakin that ruins every scene he is in and has anti-charisma. You hate the guy but not because he will become evil, but because he is annoying and you just want to punch him in the face. All 3 movies would of been elevated by casting someone decent to play Anakin, someone with a ton of charisma. Like a RJ, or Evans, or Harrison Ford type actor who just has the "IT" factor.
I will give Lucas credit on how ambitious they were. We have to go back in time and realize that what Lucas was doing was ahead of its time. Jar Jar was one of the first CGI mo capped characters. He was doing the whole CGI background thing before other movies. The reason why we have all these MCU and superhero movies that are 90% CG is because of Lucas pushing the tech forward with the PT. If thats a good thing or bad thing well thats a different debate, but he was all about the CG tech back then.
Grinchy
Banned
They even seemed to be split about Ghostbusters too. Even their crazy asses can't pretend that was a good movie as a majority.
infinitys_7th
Member
I found this comment to be particularly interesting:
JACIII said:
It's one of the reasons I am very skeptical of the social sciences, in terms of the ethics of the whole beyond satisfying base curiosity. Benevolent or malicious, people go into those fields knowing they are learning tools to alter society, and I find that unacceptable in many ways. Where is their Oppenheimer to realize that, unchecked, they will become death of humanity as a free entity? I'm much more afraid of the power of media than of nuclear war now - humans would find a way to survive nuclear winter, but if our basic memetic components that have brought us success were altered to fit a new subjective optimal societal structure, would we actually survive? Humanity is much more than our biology.
Taking that to the level of a movie, we are told not to think about it too much, going against our greatest asset as a species - critical thinking. Our brains have been molded by time and survival to look for patterns, to compare and contrast, to question, but this movie needs to be enjoyed as a popcorn movie even though those same critics vaguely hail it as a masterpiece. The actors are diverse, so criticism means you hate women, you hate black people, etc. You don't want to be a bad person, do you? This takes advantage of the fact that most people do not want to be "bad" - we want to fit in, because not fitting in meant being thrown out of a tribe or village and getting eaten by wolves. If the power structure says you are bad, you will momentarily feel that in-built fear.
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trikster40
Member
Although there are still some things I dislike (the Leia scene, casino planet seem to be the popular choices), it actually grew on me with some rewatches once my initial expectations weren’t in the way. I do feel like Rian Johnson just completely ignores a lot of the mystery that JJ was setting up, so it’s going to be interesting how/if JJ retcons some of Rians choices (Snoke getting killed, Rey being nobody, Luke, etc)
A new movie starring Luke Fucking Skywalker got rolled by JUMANJI.
JUMANJI.
I think that says it all.
If it had actually been good, it would have crushed records. Everyone was rooting for it. Everyone wanted it to be great. They fucked up hard.
I hate the Star Wars sequels and actually feel they're worse than the prequels. I could write a novel about it.
The core problem was their philosophical approach to the movies. Kathleen Kennedy is on record saying that these movies were approached in the same way that any other blockbuster tentpole movie is, and that is the core fucking problem. Star Wars was supposed to be special. It was supposed to be an event. It wasn't supposed to be just another tentpole movie released on a regular schedule.
Every problem with the movies stems from this philosophical stance. Kennedy is a hack. Even the prequels were events and not handled just like any other movie. Phantom Menace was basically the first full CG main character movie, Clones was the first major digital camera movie, etc. They all tried to do something different and special.
Look at these shitty Star Wars sequels. They don't even have state of the art special effects anymore. They feel like fucking budget boring normal movies. It's a joke.
Here's the evidence:
So dumb.
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IAmAnAgnostic
Member
I think it is one of the worst big budget movies of all time. The film is fundamentally broken in bizarre ways that really shouldn't make it in to a production of this size. I'm not even talking about the plot being nonsense and badly conveyed to the audience, nor the weird all over the place tone or the 'chase' half of the movie (which is the most broken, convoluted mess I've ever seen), or the character destruction, etc....
No, I'm talking about within scene cuts being, well, incorrect.
A few examples;
Lea, in space, flies back to the ship, the ship door opens to space with people on the other side, *cut*, she is inside and so is everyone else. (???)
Fin and Rose are about to be killed by Phasma and her crew. They are all next to each other. Supremacy or whatever it was, big bad guy ship is cut in half by the universe breaking Holdo maneuver. *cut* Phasma is literally on the other side of the giant room, walking in toward Fin and Rose. This one is the biggest offender, and I have to believe nearly everyone watching noticed it.
The Rebels enter not-Hoth. Meanwhile, the Supremacy + the rest/most of the First Order ships are blown to bits. *cut* First Order is now on not-Hoth. This one could and should be explained by a connecting scene I suppose, but since it isn't it is very jarring and confusing.
Fin is about to self sacrifice himself to the space cannon. The camera zooms out very far to show no one else is anywhere near him. *cut* Rose rams into Fin. (???) Why on earth they would leave the camera showing this to be impossible in is way beyond me.
There are others as well, the whole film is a mess from top to bottom..
No, I'm talking about within scene cuts being, well, incorrect.
A few examples;
Lea, in space, flies back to the ship, the ship door opens to space with people on the other side, *cut*, she is inside and so is everyone else. (???)
Fin and Rose are about to be killed by Phasma and her crew. They are all next to each other. Supremacy or whatever it was, big bad guy ship is cut in half by the universe breaking Holdo maneuver. *cut* Phasma is literally on the other side of the giant room, walking in toward Fin and Rose. This one is the biggest offender, and I have to believe nearly everyone watching noticed it.
The Rebels enter not-Hoth. Meanwhile, the Supremacy + the rest/most of the First Order ships are blown to bits. *cut* First Order is now on not-Hoth. This one could and should be explained by a connecting scene I suppose, but since it isn't it is very jarring and confusing.
Fin is about to self sacrifice himself to the space cannon. The camera zooms out very far to show no one else is anywhere near him. *cut* Rose rams into Fin. (???) Why on earth they would leave the camera showing this to be impossible in is way beyond me.
There are others as well, the whole film is a mess from top to bottom..
Bluntman
Member
Whatever you say guys, I love the prequels.
They have problems, for sure, but they feel special, they feel like Star Wars. I even like Episode 2, because apart from a few cringey love moments it's very cool. The starting chase is cool, Obi-Wans visit to Kamino is cool (the fight with Jango, then the dogfight in space), the Geonosis fights are cool. It's just a cool movie!
Now I hear that maybe dubbing helps with the actors being detached and wooden somewhat (I hear that criticism from the original version), because here in Hungary the dub (as usual) is very professional with great actors.
The sequels can fuck themselves tho. They are a disgrace.
They have problems, for sure, but they feel special, they feel like Star Wars. I even like Episode 2, because apart from a few cringey love moments it's very cool. The starting chase is cool, Obi-Wans visit to Kamino is cool (the fight with Jango, then the dogfight in space), the Geonosis fights are cool. It's just a cool movie!
Now I hear that maybe dubbing helps with the actors being detached and wooden somewhat (I hear that criticism from the original version), because here in Hungary the dub (as usual) is very professional with great actors.
The sequels can fuck themselves tho. They are a disgrace.
Grinchy
Banned
I re-watched the prequels after TLJ because I just desperately wanted to hate a Star Wars movie more than TLJ.
I was shocked to discover that my opinion changed in the sense that I now think The Phantom Menace is the worst of the prequels. Don't get me wrong, episode 2 has some of the worst and most corny scenes with Anakin and Padme, but it's an overall better movie than episode 1 IMO. But, episode 9 will still have to be insanely and unexpectedly good for me to place the new trilogy over the prequels now, despite still thinking the prequels aren't very good.
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Luffytubby
Member
That's a nonsensical argument. Luke saves the galaxy due to his force powerz. Everything that follows that act of birth given destiny power (mary sue) is just a consequence of saving the galaxy. The second death star is merely a symptom of what went on in the plot of ANH. This time we will build a even bigger badder death star!!
Secondly, your own interpretation of palpatine dying with the destruction of the second death star is highly subjective. If Luke could survive, there is nothing you can say, that couldn't have possible accounted for the emperor surviving. "in every scenario, palpatine dies" is a false statement. Luke was poorly written as getting out unscathed in the convenient "tables are turned" trope. Basically just showed the inconsistency and poor pacing of ROTJ.
First of all, I never made a point about that they were the same. The point I made was that Star Wars has always made a bad job at showing the power growth of characters. Luke learns force pull in mere seconds about just wi-fing bullshit convenienced radio signals from ghost kenobi to free himself on Hoth. In rest of the cannon, using force powers like that takes year of work, but Luke awakens powers and abillities for convenience, further showing the movies poor display of the passage of time. Your inability to be critical about all the poor storytelling details of the old movies are really telling.
It doesnt matter that anyone tries to explain away that Luke was training there and that. The movies does a terrible job showing his growth.
I don't care about Rey- She is a Mary Sue too. But I dont see her storytelling as being any particularly worse in her display of growth than luke was in the OT. She is a flat one-dimensional overly simplistic character catering to the lowest common denominator as a passible boring stand in-hero. Like Harry Potter and Superman (and Luke in the old movies) she is the least interesting part of the ensamble. Predictable, obvious and annoyingly good with little or few flaws. Not a lot of nuance going on.
I don't really buy that "Pure luck" explanation. Every major character in the phantom menance speaks of Anakin as a paranormal entity that is born without father, possible from the force (again with the jesus-savior trope destiny bullshit). While the movie is insuffurable trash in how it depicts anakin as just being a kid who is lucky, its pretty clear in the exposition that he succeeds at pod-racing and saving naboo!!111 due to his connection to the force. Its supposed to represent that the unlikely and impossible is possible due to how impossible strong Anakin is. Even as a stupid child, his build in "strong in the force" mary sue bullshit allows him to succeed. That is why the movie makes a point about explaining mediclorians and the subsequent power levels via the jedi councils with all the "balance in the force" and "prophercy" nonsense.
Yup. I think this is the worst one though.
The movie's a complete piece of crap.
And it's not just The Last Jedi. The Force Awakens is a complete piece of shit, too. It's just so dumb. At the beginning of the movie, they try to set up some thing where Finn has a conscience and doesn't want to kill people. Then five minutes later he's literally blowing the fuck out of a hangar filled with the only people he's known his entire life and hooting like an Arsenio Hall audience member while murdering dozens of people. And idiots actually said his character was good. It's so. fucking. bad. Remember when movies actually tried to sell you on characters? Like, people who've been INDOCTRINATED SINCE THEY WERE BABIES don't just do a 180 and turn into Disney tween sitcom characters in the span of 1 second? Ugh. It's SO BAD.
The sequels are pure trash. It's hard to watch them without constantly thinking that the people that made them must be retarded.
I reckon this comes down to not starting with a clear vision for the entire trilogy when the first one was written.
People talk about JJ and Lost but they need to remember that he only wrote 3 episodes of Lost (directed 2). That's out of 121 episodes.
JJ wrote and directed the Pilot parts 1 & 2 and then he wrote Season 3 Episode 1. That's it.
I think with The Force Awakens JJ gave us pretty much the perfect set up for an excellent trilogy.
True, as a standalone movie it is a bit of a rip-off of A New Hope but it never was going to be a standalone movie.
For me TFA had to do 2 things. Firstly, be better than the prequels. Secondly, get people hyped for the next 2 episodes in the trilogy.
I would say that JJ was well suited to this. Everyone said his Star Trek film kind of felt like Star Wars and he had proven himself able to set up an interesting ongoing story with the Lost pilot episodes.
The downside to this is that somebody has to come in and deliver a satisfying pay off to the set up, Without a plan, this can go either way.
Another BIG downside is that a botched follow up to an interesting first episode will do damage to that episode in retrospect.
Rian Johnson seemed to just come in and largely do his own thing without any understanding or consideration that this is Part 2 of a 3 part story.
TLJ is like a standalone adventure that takes place in the Star Wars universe but doesn't do anything to drive the main story forward.
I would look at the main "Episode" stories as the big main event Star Wars content. Sure, the video games and side novels etc can be good and entertaining but they don't feel like a big deal. They are side content.
TLJ feels like side content. Not like a big main event. It feels even less weighty that Rogue One, or even Solo, in terms of what it offers us as Star Wars fans.
The ending alone with the broom kid just feels out of place. Like that should have been the end of the whole trilogy or something. It's WAY too "final" for something that is essentially going to be followed by "To be continued...".
Regardless of anything TLJ does right as a movie or even as a Star Wars movie it completely fails at being "Part 2 of 3" in almost every conceivable way.
None of our characters really change or grow and none of our questions from the previous episode are given any kind of answer. Now, that doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. The whole adventure could work as a Star Wars novel or something. It's perfectly valid to say "there are no answers" and "Snoke is just nobody" etc in a standalone side story. It just doesn't work as part of a competent and intriguing Trilogy.
JJ sets up Kylo, Snoke and Rey. RJ should have then given the answers to the main burning questions for these characters. Then in Episode 3 of 3 you have all the big payoffs coming out together,
Instead we got 3 hours of "meh" and a "see you next time". With a side helping of "manbabies HATE this movie" and "most critics of TLJ are Russian Bots".
With a clear vision of the entire trilogy you can avoid things like the lurching tone as the films try to alternate between trying to be serious Main Event films while also being a kind of whimsical slapstick comedy routine.
Hux, for example, goes from dangerous Space Nazi to bumbling comedy relief.
Snoke goes from "Kylo Ren needs to complete his training" to dead and pointless.
Rey goes from mysterious past to who cares about her past.
In a standalone film, maybe it's fine. As part 2 of a trilogy it's just such awful decision making.
The best thing to come out of TLJ is people referring to Holdo as "Vice Admiral Gender Studies". It cracks me up and it triggers the right people too. Brilliant.
TLJ also somehow manages to lower the stakes of the overall situation.
The audience inherently knows that "good wins" will be the end result here.
So from a Kylo and Rey perspective this will be a 3-0 to Rey at the end. Where is the drama in that?
I think the LOTR movies are a good indicator of how to expertly do this.
In part 1 the fellowship loses and is broken. Saurons threat is built up.
In part 2 the good guys barely win against the 2nd tier villain. If they just managed Saruman how will they manage Sauron?
In part 3 the big bad must be faced and beaten against all the odds.
This is with a big bad that is essentially a flaming eye but they also build up the Ringwraiths as a similar potentially unbeatable foe.
Even Saurons army is built up as something that exceeds the previously encountered enemies.
TLJ just goes "meh, Snoke is dead, Hux is a buffoon and Kylo is an angsty teen" and the fucking idiots cheer because it "teaches us about toxic masculinity" or some shite.
They needed to give the First Order the win in Episode 7. Establish them as a colossal threat. They didn't manage it but the situation remained salvageable. The First Order, Snoke and Kylo Ren should have gotten the win in Episode 8 DEFINITELY. Instead it's just another weird situation where they present the villains as a non-threat.
Look at Infinity War. They knew it was going to be 2 parts so you absolutely have to finish part one with Thanos' finger snap. It sets up a part 2 where everyone wonders how this can be made right. It's the result of a LONG build up where Thanos is presented as virtually unstoppable with just a small glimmer of hope.
I can't help but feel if Rian Johnson had been put in charge of Infinity War Thanos would have lost the gauntlet down the back of his sofa and decided just to not bother. That's great though because in real life sometimes the big bad thing doesn't come to pass and this decision subverts the expectations of moviegoers.
Like how is that a positive? "It subverted expectations".
When my wife gets home I anticipate a smile and a hug and a kiss before we have a nice dinner and a few games of Overcooked.
If she comes in crying and says "I'm leaving you you ugly fucker" and gives me a boot in the balls... well that would certainly subvert my expectations but I wouldn't be fucking happy about it.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
I think it’s easy to get sidetracked with all the talk about plot holes and canon inconsistencies and power levels or character arcs or meta narratives. As if rewriting a scene would bring it from bad to good again
The solid fact is the movie failed to appeal. The story was dull, the new characters were uninteresting, the side plot was obvious and arbitrary, the “new planets” were all dull normal looking Earth places, etc.
It’s like if someone covers a Beatles song. Yes they can play the right chords and sing the right notes but you aren’t fooling anyone. It doesn’t make you the Beatles. It doesn’t even make you good. TLJ might play the right notes from time to time but the overall package is just not appealing.
The solid fact is the movie failed to appeal. The story was dull, the new characters were uninteresting, the side plot was obvious and arbitrary, the “new planets” were all dull normal looking Earth places, etc.
It’s like if someone covers a Beatles song. Yes they can play the right chords and sing the right notes but you aren’t fooling anyone. It doesn’t make you the Beatles. It doesn’t even make you good. TLJ might play the right notes from time to time but the overall package is just not appealing.
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tkscz
Member
Honestly surprised this thread is still here.
Though I just recently had a friend try and defend this movie. Even said that if you remove the B plot, it'll be a good movie. But that's one of my biggest issues, there are like 4 or 5 plots going on all at once and none of them mesh. You got Rey and Luke, you got Kylo and evil dude, you got the failed mission plot, you got the stand still in space and you got the issue between pilot and purple hair. Which one of those is plot B because you can remove any of them and still have a plot mess.
Then there are plot holes he tried to resolve that just can't be without some digging. Still don't understand Kylo as a character. You don't like the space nazis (which come on, they make so obvious that's what they are in these movies), you don't like the rebels, but you still choose a side without any explanation why? The motivations make no sense and they try very little to explain them.
The purple haired lady was the worst addition and I have no idea why she was there. The plot would've been better had she not been there. Rather than a plan that no one knows being the reason they sit there and do nothing while have guns pointed right at them and out of fuel, there would've been bouts over who should lead now that Lea is out and what should their next steps be. Then that three little rebel plot would've made more sense than three people who decided they know better just go off and fail, making it so that if it didn't happen, nothing would've been lost.
But then let's talk about the space nazis, why did they just not blow them to kingdom come? I mean, they give a thin reason but never a good one. Was "our weapons have taken damage" just not good enough? Cause that would've sufficed. They can't fire until the guns are fixed, giving time and reason for just sitting there (though they could've just went full pirate and boarded them but one issue at a time here). Even then they had reinforcements that they could've requested at anytime. Why didn't they just do that?
There are just so many issues with this movie and I can't even get into the lore stuff because I don't really know it.
Though I just recently had a friend try and defend this movie. Even said that if you remove the B plot, it'll be a good movie. But that's one of my biggest issues, there are like 4 or 5 plots going on all at once and none of them mesh. You got Rey and Luke, you got Kylo and evil dude, you got the failed mission plot, you got the stand still in space and you got the issue between pilot and purple hair. Which one of those is plot B because you can remove any of them and still have a plot mess.
Then there are plot holes he tried to resolve that just can't be without some digging. Still don't understand Kylo as a character. You don't like the space nazis (which come on, they make so obvious that's what they are in these movies), you don't like the rebels, but you still choose a side without any explanation why? The motivations make no sense and they try very little to explain them.
The purple haired lady was the worst addition and I have no idea why she was there. The plot would've been better had she not been there. Rather than a plan that no one knows being the reason they sit there and do nothing while have guns pointed right at them and out of fuel, there would've been bouts over who should lead now that Lea is out and what should their next steps be. Then that three little rebel plot would've made more sense than three people who decided they know better just go off and fail, making it so that if it didn't happen, nothing would've been lost.
But then let's talk about the space nazis, why did they just not blow them to kingdom come? I mean, they give a thin reason but never a good one. Was "our weapons have taken damage" just not good enough? Cause that would've sufficed. They can't fire until the guns are fixed, giving time and reason for just sitting there (though they could've just went full pirate and boarded them but one issue at a time here). Even then they had reinforcements that they could've requested at anytime. Why didn't they just do that?
There are just so many issues with this movie and I can't even get into the lore stuff because I don't really know it.
Plague Doctor
Member
It's an amazing movie simply because it did something I thought impossible. It actually made me appreciate the prequels. Yes. Even Episode 2.
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cryptoadam
Banned
Is anyone a little perturbed with how much the movie glorified kamakazi/sucide bombing? I get its a trope sacrafice yourself to save others, but the movie pulled that trope twice.
first Holdo kamakazing her ship, and then Finn tried to do it a second time.
I don't know feels a little dirty is this day and age when we have real life car rammings and suicide bombings.
They couldn't come up with an idea about showing actual talent and thought out plans? Luke destroyed the first death star because he was a great shot not because he rammed his tie fighter into it.
first Holdo kamakazing her ship, and then Finn tried to do it a second time.
I don't know feels a little dirty is this day and age when we have real life car rammings and suicide bombings.
They couldn't come up with an idea about showing actual talent and thought out plans? Luke destroyed the first death star because he was a great shot not because he rammed his tie fighter into it.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
for real this. rewatching Attack of the Clones and just enjoying every minute of it was a blast. you get the sense it was made with the same corny wide-eyed attitude that produced the first film. yes it is stupid. yes the dialog is silly. yes the title is ridiculous. all of that imo is even more reason to love it. it is what it is, a love letter to old fashioned movie serials. it's not ashamed of itself or naval gazing about it's own importance. it's not a referendum on toxic fans. you can enjoy it for sheer spectacle. it's like a comic book. it's like a pulp magazine. it is pure Star Wars.
without a doubt. it also happens with Rose's sister in the start, and of course with Luke at the very end, both in glorious slo mo to just hit home how amazing we should think this is. that is 4 glorious suicide deaths in the name of a cause! it's icky. yes kids maybe some day you can give your life to a great cause that is vaguely spelt out through politican speak about "spark that ignites the fire". tbh this film's politics are wretched, neo-liberal, borederline fascist bullshit. Luke's "The war is never over" being kind of the peak of this.
the OT films were made with an anti-war bent, specifically commenting on the US-Vietnam war, and the PT films were current reactions to the US War on Terror. the fighting itself was never the point, it was the backdrop to this stuff going on. of course Disney has no politics to speak of, so we get this muddled film that pretends to have something to say but doesn't take a stance on anything. im looking forward to people actually analysing this movie in 5-10 years and finding it to be ghastly and pro-violence.
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Captain Zyrain
Member
So after TROS, and watching TLJ again, I did some thinking about where I place TLJ now, and how I feel about the issues/etc. I read through this thread again and it's pretty funny how we all felt a year ago. I didn't want to open a new (ANOTHER) TLJ thread, so I just posted it here.
I do think TROS retroactively makes SOME things about TLJ better, it gives excuses for a few others, and hand waves away 1 or 2 more. I can't think of any way where TROS makes TLJ *WORSE* in retrospect, which is a good thing.
I think I have narrowed my complaint list on TLJ to 3 things, these are the 3 BIG offenders, and while there are still a bunch of smaller dumb things (Poe & Hux joke conversation, The Dreadnaught firing at the base before the ship, almost all of Canto Bite...), they're not at the "movie ruining" level and can pretty much be eye-rolled away while I move on with watching the movie.
#1. Holdo. Just... no-ldo. Uh oh! I must be misogynistic! In fairness, she isn't 100% movie-breaking in every scene, and even her stupid man-hating opening parts could be justified in certain ways. However, where she goes 100% movie-breaking is at 1:26:43 (Thank you Disney+). Poe goes to the bridge (and is informed by Bird Lady that the Admiral banned him from the bridge, but he goes anyway). Holdo greets him with a dismissive 'flyboy', which, while rude.. is.. whatever, could just be her character. Poe asks (legitimately) what the plan is. He says they had a fleet and now they have one ship. The actual conversation goes as follows:
Poe: "Tell us we have a plan. That there's hope."
Holdo: "When I served under LEIA, she would say hope is like the sun, if you only believe it in when you see it-"
Poe: "-you'll never make it through the night."
Holdo: "Yes."
Sidebar, at this point they seem to make a legit connection, okay maybe she's not such a bitch, maybe he's not so brash. We got off on the wrong foot, but hey lets fix this for the betterment of the Resistance AND OUR OWN LIVES. NOPE DOT COM!
[Poe notices the transports are getting fueled]
Poe: "Are you fueling up the transports?"
Holdo: [SILENCE]
Poe: "You are! All of them?!"
Holdo: [SILENCE]
Poe: "We're abandoning ship? Is that... that's what you got? That's what you brought us to?"
Holdo: [SILENCE]
Poe: "Coward! Those transport ships are un-armed, un-shielded! We abandon this cruises we're done, we don't stand a chance. No, you are not just a coward, you are a traitor!"
Holdo: "Get this man off my bridge."
So by my count she had AT LEAST 5 times to tell Poe what the plan was, that there WAS a plan, or literally anything other than some vague axiom about hope. There is zero reason at this point for her not to say anything to Poe. If anything, knowing he's hot-headed, she should be making sure to defuse any kind of situation before it escalates further. Of course this leads to Poe telling Finn/Rose about the plan to abandon ship, which DJ overhears and eventually tells the First Order, thus ruining the whole plan for everyone. Is that Poe's fault? I guess technically, since he was the one who shared the info... BUT... there is still zero point zero percent reason for Holdo to not be telling literally everyone on board what the plan is. I'd previously said if they'd introduced some sort of espionage or potential trailer aboard, that would have given Holdo SOME sort of reasoning, but instead it comes off as just being too much of a fucking bitch to say anything, and that's NOT Star Wars-esque at all.
Because this impacts the whole rest of the story, it's borderline unforgivable. I have a really hard time swallowing this scene and moving on. Ugh. Just... ugh. Why would you leave the scene in here like this? Obviously because Rian wanted to get to the rest of his story which requires this stupid non-communication. Just SO poorly done. UGH!
#2. Rose. Oh no! I'm misogynistic AND racist! Like Holdo, I don't think Rose is 100% bad, I just think the character isn't needed. She does act as a sounding board for Finn, and I guess moves his character forward in seeing that the galaxy isn't black or white I guess? It just all feels kind of inconsequential for the amount of screen time she gets in TLJ. But most of that isn't movie-breaking. It's just annoying. However, Rose knocking Finn out of the way of the... uh death star ram? is pretty freaking stupid. I mean, He was THAT close to getting to the laser ram thing. Don't tell me the First Order was going to shoot him down, at that speed he would have at least hit it. Would that have destroyed it? I have no idea, if it wouldn't have, they should have made that more clear (showing that Finn was going to die for nothing, thus giving Rose a purpose). Holdo got to sacrifice herself for the greater good and no one batted an eye, why do this nonsense when he was trying to literally save everyone left? Also, if Rose managed to get to an angle where she cut him off like she did, she could have easily gotten to the ram laser FIRST and sacrificed herself! SELFISH!
The following "Save what you love" sentiment is whatever, and the completely stupid forced "kiss" is just icing on the terrible Rose cake. I am glad her role was reduced in TROS, since she is just not a needed character with so many others running around.
#3. Luke's sacrifice. Now, surprisingly, I've come to terms with this, especially in light of TROS. What still sticks in my craw is the way it's played out in TLJ. I can (finally) get behind the themes and emotions of him coming to Crait as a force vision or whatever, to fight the battle without violence (like throwing down his lightsaber instead of finishing Vader). It shows growth, what the light side should stand for, etc. Fine fine. What I have a problem with is.. he shows up, walks around, and then walks out to confront Kylo et al. Okay. Doesn't tell anyone what to do? Hints? Best case scenario is he delays them, since he's not dealing any damage. If he'd said something like "I'll face them, I'll buy you some time to escape" then it'd make sense. But he doesn't, they all stand around watching until finally Poe is like "uh maybe we should try to get out of here..." like, duh! This complaint list is in descending order, so this one is just barely still on the list, but it is just such a stupid omission that I think of it every time.
So yeah, I think I'd rank TLJ about a 70/100 now after all is said and done, MAYBE even a 75/100 tied with The Force Awakens. As part of the trilogy as a whole, it's reduced/changed/or otherwise tempered a lot of the things I originally didn't like about TLJ. It's not great, but it's mostly watchable, especially after some of the story lines get followed up and finished in TROS (Like Snoke at least!).
I do think TROS retroactively makes SOME things about TLJ better, it gives excuses for a few others, and hand waves away 1 or 2 more. I can't think of any way where TROS makes TLJ *WORSE* in retrospect, which is a good thing.
I think I have narrowed my complaint list on TLJ to 3 things, these are the 3 BIG offenders, and while there are still a bunch of smaller dumb things (Poe & Hux joke conversation, The Dreadnaught firing at the base before the ship, almost all of Canto Bite...), they're not at the "movie ruining" level and can pretty much be eye-rolled away while I move on with watching the movie.
#1. Holdo. Just... no-ldo. Uh oh! I must be misogynistic! In fairness, she isn't 100% movie-breaking in every scene, and even her stupid man-hating opening parts could be justified in certain ways. However, where she goes 100% movie-breaking is at 1:26:43 (Thank you Disney+). Poe goes to the bridge (and is informed by Bird Lady that the Admiral banned him from the bridge, but he goes anyway). Holdo greets him with a dismissive 'flyboy', which, while rude.. is.. whatever, could just be her character. Poe asks (legitimately) what the plan is. He says they had a fleet and now they have one ship. The actual conversation goes as follows:
Poe: "Tell us we have a plan. That there's hope."
Holdo: "When I served under LEIA, she would say hope is like the sun, if you only believe it in when you see it-"
Poe: "-you'll never make it through the night."
Holdo: "Yes."
Sidebar, at this point they seem to make a legit connection, okay maybe she's not such a bitch, maybe he's not so brash. We got off on the wrong foot, but hey lets fix this for the betterment of the Resistance AND OUR OWN LIVES. NOPE DOT COM!
[Poe notices the transports are getting fueled]
Poe: "Are you fueling up the transports?"
Holdo: [SILENCE]
Poe: "You are! All of them?!"
Holdo: [SILENCE]
Poe: "We're abandoning ship? Is that... that's what you got? That's what you brought us to?"
Holdo: [SILENCE]
Poe: "Coward! Those transport ships are un-armed, un-shielded! We abandon this cruises we're done, we don't stand a chance. No, you are not just a coward, you are a traitor!"
Holdo: "Get this man off my bridge."
So by my count she had AT LEAST 5 times to tell Poe what the plan was, that there WAS a plan, or literally anything other than some vague axiom about hope. There is zero reason at this point for her not to say anything to Poe. If anything, knowing he's hot-headed, she should be making sure to defuse any kind of situation before it escalates further. Of course this leads to Poe telling Finn/Rose about the plan to abandon ship, which DJ overhears and eventually tells the First Order, thus ruining the whole plan for everyone. Is that Poe's fault? I guess technically, since he was the one who shared the info... BUT... there is still zero point zero percent reason for Holdo to not be telling literally everyone on board what the plan is. I'd previously said if they'd introduced some sort of espionage or potential trailer aboard, that would have given Holdo SOME sort of reasoning, but instead it comes off as just being too much of a fucking bitch to say anything, and that's NOT Star Wars-esque at all.
Because this impacts the whole rest of the story, it's borderline unforgivable. I have a really hard time swallowing this scene and moving on. Ugh. Just... ugh. Why would you leave the scene in here like this? Obviously because Rian wanted to get to the rest of his story which requires this stupid non-communication. Just SO poorly done. UGH!
#2. Rose. Oh no! I'm misogynistic AND racist! Like Holdo, I don't think Rose is 100% bad, I just think the character isn't needed. She does act as a sounding board for Finn, and I guess moves his character forward in seeing that the galaxy isn't black or white I guess? It just all feels kind of inconsequential for the amount of screen time she gets in TLJ. But most of that isn't movie-breaking. It's just annoying. However, Rose knocking Finn out of the way of the... uh death star ram? is pretty freaking stupid. I mean, He was THAT close to getting to the laser ram thing. Don't tell me the First Order was going to shoot him down, at that speed he would have at least hit it. Would that have destroyed it? I have no idea, if it wouldn't have, they should have made that more clear (showing that Finn was going to die for nothing, thus giving Rose a purpose). Holdo got to sacrifice herself for the greater good and no one batted an eye, why do this nonsense when he was trying to literally save everyone left? Also, if Rose managed to get to an angle where she cut him off like she did, she could have easily gotten to the ram laser FIRST and sacrificed herself! SELFISH!
The following "Save what you love" sentiment is whatever, and the completely stupid forced "kiss" is just icing on the terrible Rose cake. I am glad her role was reduced in TROS, since she is just not a needed character with so many others running around.
#3. Luke's sacrifice. Now, surprisingly, I've come to terms with this, especially in light of TROS. What still sticks in my craw is the way it's played out in TLJ. I can (finally) get behind the themes and emotions of him coming to Crait as a force vision or whatever, to fight the battle without violence (like throwing down his lightsaber instead of finishing Vader). It shows growth, what the light side should stand for, etc. Fine fine. What I have a problem with is.. he shows up, walks around, and then walks out to confront Kylo et al. Okay. Doesn't tell anyone what to do? Hints? Best case scenario is he delays them, since he's not dealing any damage. If he'd said something like "I'll face them, I'll buy you some time to escape" then it'd make sense. But he doesn't, they all stand around watching until finally Poe is like "uh maybe we should try to get out of here..." like, duh! This complaint list is in descending order, so this one is just barely still on the list, but it is just such a stupid omission that I think of it every time.
So yeah, I think I'd rank TLJ about a 70/100 now after all is said and done, MAYBE even a 75/100 tied with The Force Awakens. As part of the trilogy as a whole, it's reduced/changed/or otherwise tempered a lot of the things I originally didn't like about TLJ. It's not great, but it's mostly watchable, especially after some of the story lines get followed up and finished in TROS (Like Snoke at least!).
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
My opinion of TLJ is even lower now that I've seen ROS.
Handel
Member
Depending on the day I have it slightly above, equal to or slightly below ROTJ as my favorite SW movie. Everything with Luke/Rey/Kylo is peak Star Wars, Finn's arc I quite liked, only really Poe's plot dragged it down a bit but not nearly enough to counteract the high highs of the movie.
Rian Johnson should have been given both VIII and IX from the beginning so he could have gone full out with the character arcs across the movies. Really hope he gets to work on another SW movie.
Rian Johnson should have been given both VIII and IX from the beginning so he could have gone full out with the character arcs across the movies. Really hope he gets to work on another SW movie.
Paltheos
Member
70/100? That's not what I read from your post. A 7/10 is good.
I think a 4 or 5 out of 10 for TFA is about right. It did not interest me and sometimes did some stupid shit (i.e. Kylo Ren's temper tantrum with his lightsaber) but was mostly... inoffensive. The best parts of the movie are the desert planet stuff. I like the quiet time the movie spends building on Rey and the first Falcon dogfight, and that's it. There's nothing else I like about the movie but that might be enough to bump to a 5.
TLJ is... between a 2 or 3, probably. All the reasons you mentioned + the terrible slapstick (Poe making yo mamma jokes on enemy comms, Snoke dragging a commanding officer across the floor of a bridge) fucking offended me. It's just awful. When I go back and watch like RLM stuff and see how terrible stuff like the fight choreography is it makes me hate the movie more. I just don't see... a 7/10?! Really?
T8SC
Gold Member
I think it was the lowest point of the Star Wars franchise.
TFA was a safe movie, albeit a rehash of ANH.
TLJ was simply terrible.
TROS had to spend a lot of time fixing the issues TLJ introduced and then somehow bring the franchise to a close. It wasn't great but it's back was always against the wall.
TFA was a safe movie, albeit a rehash of ANH.
TLJ was simply terrible.
TROS had to spend a lot of time fixing the issues TLJ introduced and then somehow bring the franchise to a close. It wasn't great but it's back was always against the wall.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
yeah it really drives home how little TLJ did to further along the plot. no new threads. i see a lot of TLJ defenders saying JJ dropped the ball but Rian is the one who threw it into the woods.
if people think Kylo would have been a satisfactory big bad then i strongly disagree with them (he wasn't the big bad in the first two movies, why should he be in the third?) just gets his ass kicked in every movie.
the absurdity of Luke doing his dumb thing inspiring the galaxy, that dumb ending not making any sense, is revealed for the useless meta reference it was. "People are inspired by heroes" still maybe the most redundant point anyone could make in a movie like this.
Rose being a shit character, glad to see her reduced. all the squealing from SJWs on her absence is funny. this is a character introduced sitting by the escape pods to make sure people don't leave. it makes total sense she would be a base sitting narc.
funniest thing has been the backlash to Reylo, which TLJ is mostly responsible for. Rian going on about how Vader was way worse than Kylo, how the hand touch scene is so sexy, putting in the shirtless shot, etc. now people are mad they kiss, it's sexist, LOL. shippers are insane. case in point they are also mad at Poe's new girlfriend, cos they have shipped Finn and Poe, even to the point of sending JJ death threats. toxic fandom indeed.
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The Last Jedi is probably my most hated film ever, not just it being a bad Star Wars film. Not only has it got infantile writing and characterisation but it genuinely comes across as spiteful to the franchise and it’s fans.
The Rise of Skywalker had a mountain to climb and had a pretty good attempt but was always destined to fail due to the film that came before it. I don’t think there has been a film that retroactively and proactively ruins the films on either side of it. I gotta hand it to Johnson for doing such a thorough job on that front.
The Rise of Skywalker had a mountain to climb and had a pretty good attempt but was always destined to fail due to the film that came before it. I don’t think there has been a film that retroactively and proactively ruins the films on either side of it. I gotta hand it to Johnson for doing such a thorough job on that front.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
It’s ironic that I found out I had cancer right after TLJ came out. All the reasons for Luke being a miserable ass sitter was “well real life doesn’t always work out the way you want it to” and I was like no shit I just found out I have cancer. Used to be a time when I could distract my mind from reality by watching a fairy tale but now I don’t even have that thanks to a fat smug millionaire who takes pleasure in my dissatisfaction. Not a lesson I needed to learn from you Rian, go fuck yourself
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Captain Zyrain
Member
Clearly...
Paltheos
is not as forgiving as I am..And that's fine. I don't think TFA or TLJ are great movies, but I was very entertained (if only, perhaps vapidly) by TFA. TLJ I didn't like right away, but still found merit in some things. My original view on it was a 50/100 (where that means it was 50% good and 50% bad not a 50/100 meaning "F"). I am not sure if I've ever seen a movie that I'd rate a 2 or 3 out of 10 (or 20/100). Maybe Freddie Got Fingered? Just being Star Wars (and me being a fan) automatically nets a movie probably like 40/100. As I mentioned above, TROS, re-viewing TLJ, and, honestly, just coming to terms with some of the things I didn't like in TLJ and moving on, helped change my mind, and 'improved' TLJ in my head from a 50/100 to a 70/75 out of 100. The Holdo nonsense I mentioned is probably the biggest thing that pulls the movie down from me, with Rose a bit down from that, and the Luke stuff a distant third.
I think the movie is beautifully shot, and the themes better resonate with me now than they did when the movie came out. I would have to think this is because of TROS, but it is in all reality probably a mix of things.
PanzerAzel
Member
Garbage.
TFA was incredibly safe, but TLJ completely destroyed any and all interest that I have for this franchise (at least under Disney’s control). I suppose as a stand alone film I can see some merit in its defense, but as a middle act of a sequel trilogy? What in the fuck was Rian thinking?
Oh, and screw ROS, not for being a bad film, but for making people now believe that TLJ actually was good. Fuck that noise.....it’s shit.
TFA was incredibly safe, but TLJ completely destroyed any and all interest that I have for this franchise (at least under Disney’s control). I suppose as a stand alone film I can see some merit in its defense, but as a middle act of a sequel trilogy? What in the fuck was Rian thinking?
Oh, and screw ROS, not for being a bad film, but for making people now believe that TLJ actually was good. Fuck that noise.....it’s shit.
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decisions
Member
Liked it a lot when it came out after hating TFA, re-watched it after seeing TROS and loved it even more. It’s really a very well put-together film that did all the hard work needed for SW to be a successful franchise beyond the OT...before TROS backtracked on all of its progress.
Most people on this forum hate the film because it doesn’t match up with what they wanted SW to be...which I still find odd when TROS is way more undermining of the franchise’s past, considering the entire plot of that movie, at its most basic level, destroys Anakin’s entire story. And people still want to point the finger at RJ.
Most people on this forum hate the film because it doesn’t match up with what they wanted SW to be...which I still find odd when TROS is way more undermining of the franchise’s past, considering the entire plot of that movie, at its most basic level, destroys Anakin’s entire story. And people still want to point the finger at RJ.
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I was really intrigued into where the film was heading but it turned it’s back on it’s subverted promises. I loved the idea of Kylo Ren and Rey joining together to make something new out of the remains of the Jedi and the Sith but the tropes fell back on themselves, Rey went back to being space Jesus and Ren went back to being a pantomime villain. I don’t know how you can defend characterisation like that.
I loved the idea of Luke being in hiding, maybe to meditate on a way to fix the mess the galaxy is in. But no, he is just a mopey bastard because his student had a few bad thoughts and he wanted to murder him. That isn’t Luke at all. That’s a complete misunderstanding of the character. By all means make him feel the weight of the galaxy on his shoulders but don’t turn him into a would be murderer for the sake of it.
Johnson had intriguing ideas that if he had run with then the state of the franchise might be in a more interesting position but he didn’t have the balls to follow through. He fell back on established tropes that undermined his clever vision. It’s a shame to as I was looking forward to something brand new. In the end he just gave us salt.
Master Of Illusion
Member
Best of the sequel trilogy / only one that holds up as a genuinely good-ass film and not just either being an A). Fun but ultimately unoriginal rehash (Force Awakens) or B). A Frankenstein's monster of a trainwreck visibly cobbled together in the editing room two weeks before release (Rise Of Skywalker).
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Cutty Flam
Banned
The actual fight scenes, while intriguing enough to be called fight scenes, lacked something....maybe multiple things
Anybody feel this way?
Anybody feel this way?
Cutty Flam
Banned
The initial battle scene felt the most like Star Wars but even then, I felt they could have done way better. But that asian sister who gave her life with the bombs; that was a phenomenal act of bravery. I don't really see how it contributes to a whole bunch though, because the pilot dude who called the raid in the first place is treated like and proven to be a numbskull of sorts in the film...Idk, the entire film is all over the place tbh but I still enjoyed it a little
#Phonepunk#
Banned
seeing all the KMT outrage, TLJ stans speaking up again. what annoys me most is Canto Bight, the idea that it is saying something (it isn't), and that if you don't like the politics you are a dullard who doesn't understand. no, i understand perfectly fine. the politics are just idiotic and ham fisted and entirely dismissive of our point of view character's (Finn's) lived experiences, as depicted in the previous entry.
the slow motion Evil Rich People Being Rich and Evil montage over Rose's heavy handed monologue is really what it boils down to. if you think this is a stunning, brave thing to say, that rich people are evil, with the exact kind of scene they could have put in a Disney animated movie 50 years ago, then good for you. pat yourself on the back for patronizing such stunning work. personally, it feels extremely pandering. it feels like they are writing to a 13 year old me who has just read Animal Farm for the first time ever.
the idea of the people profiting from any of this war shouldn't really be relevant. She is fighting an army that killed her sister, it seems odd to be hung up on rich third parties who profit while funding both sides. The only reason to be mad seems to be jealousy. these rich people didn't plunder her planet for resources, the FO did. these rich people aren't shooting at their friends, the FO is. what's more, as these horrible rich people are selling weapons to everyone, they are funding the Resistance, you know, the good guys? these people are bad because they the good guys the weapons they need to fight back against the evil FO? how does this work?
the fact that rich people get rich off the war might blow some lib minds but I fail to see how this is some kind of megaton revelation or how it would complicate or add to the situation in any way. So what? Should we bad mad that the US did some bad things while they were fighting the Axis powers in WWII? Yeah we can be but we also have to look at things in context. Axis and Allied powers dealt with some of the same businesses, does that make them both as bad? No. Because the Axis was killing and imprisoning millions of people, taking over countries, etc. this is what the FO does, no? like, war isn't just this thing that rich people use to make money, it involves a lot of violence, there are things to consider that are worse than greed. It is weird how the idea that someone is making money off of this should somehow complicate things. It doesn't bc all of this was covered in far more depth and subtly in the PT.
worst of all is that Finn is the receptacle to Rose's lectures on the rich, that he needs to be lectured about the badness of war. war is bad because it makes rich people money! of course he had his own experience last film, learning war is bad because it kills people, seeing this first hand on the battlefield, death literally stains him with blood, leading to his own heroic decision to rebel against his imprisoned upbringing, all of that we are just going to ignore so that we can look at space horsies and curse the bad rich people who own them.
seriously fuck Canto Bight it's one of the stupidest most pandering sequences i have ever seen in a movie. it's like a b-plot from a bad episode of Duck Tales. honestly can't believe people defend this shit w a straight face.
the slow motion Evil Rich People Being Rich and Evil montage over Rose's heavy handed monologue is really what it boils down to. if you think this is a stunning, brave thing to say, that rich people are evil, with the exact kind of scene they could have put in a Disney animated movie 50 years ago, then good for you. pat yourself on the back for patronizing such stunning work. personally, it feels extremely pandering. it feels like they are writing to a 13 year old me who has just read Animal Farm for the first time ever.
the idea of the people profiting from any of this war shouldn't really be relevant. She is fighting an army that killed her sister, it seems odd to be hung up on rich third parties who profit while funding both sides. The only reason to be mad seems to be jealousy. these rich people didn't plunder her planet for resources, the FO did. these rich people aren't shooting at their friends, the FO is. what's more, as these horrible rich people are selling weapons to everyone, they are funding the Resistance, you know, the good guys? these people are bad because they the good guys the weapons they need to fight back against the evil FO? how does this work?
the fact that rich people get rich off the war might blow some lib minds but I fail to see how this is some kind of megaton revelation or how it would complicate or add to the situation in any way. So what? Should we bad mad that the US did some bad things while they were fighting the Axis powers in WWII? Yeah we can be but we also have to look at things in context. Axis and Allied powers dealt with some of the same businesses, does that make them both as bad? No. Because the Axis was killing and imprisoning millions of people, taking over countries, etc. this is what the FO does, no? like, war isn't just this thing that rich people use to make money, it involves a lot of violence, there are things to consider that are worse than greed. It is weird how the idea that someone is making money off of this should somehow complicate things. It doesn't bc all of this was covered in far more depth and subtly in the PT.
worst of all is that Finn is the receptacle to Rose's lectures on the rich, that he needs to be lectured about the badness of war. war is bad because it makes rich people money! of course he had his own experience last film, learning war is bad because it kills people, seeing this first hand on the battlefield, death literally stains him with blood, leading to his own heroic decision to rebel against his imprisoned upbringing, all of that we are just going to ignore so that we can look at space horsies and curse the bad rich people who own them.
seriously fuck Canto Bight it's one of the stupidest most pandering sequences i have ever seen in a movie. it's like a b-plot from a bad episode of Duck Tales. honestly can't believe people defend this shit w a straight face.
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#Phonepunk#
Banned
top 3 reasons this movie destroyed Star Wars:
1) you can die from using the force. this is a massive paradigm shift people are ignoring. Luke dying using the force was the first time anyone died from using the force. in fact, it doesn't ever seem like the force is something that takes from your physical health. force did not drain Yoda's life in ESB when he lifted the X-wing. yet Luke dies from using the force, it now is shown to sometimes require physical exertion. he is a substance abusice suicide caution case. at this point it is almost like the Jedi are a religious cult, obsessed with the force, addicts hooked on a substance that has now resulted in a fatality. what's more, this sets the precedent for JJ to follow up with more force life transfer powers. TLJ set the standard that Rey would far outshine Luke in anything he does, so JJ really had to one up the teleportation powers, hence all the new force stuff.
2) Reylo is a thing set up by Rian, promoted by him and his army of Twitter users and message board warriors who spammed GIFs of topless genocidal maniacs. everyone one of those blue check dweebs were totally fine promoting this toxic relationship as long as they could own the alt right. given the overwhelming amount of support the Reylo community gets from access media types (many of whome are Reylos with wide reaching mainstream channels) JJ was more or less forced to appease these fans who were so serviced in TLJ. thus that much hated kiss. thus the redemption of Ben. some things were likely demanded from the top in order to appease certain Loud Online demographics.
3) Canto Bight really is the stupidest waste of time in the theater while watching any Star Wars film and was the moment I decided it would be my last. far and away the worst sequence. i really felt insulted when i saw it. the politics are so broad and generically drawn, it felt aimed at the absolute lowest common denominator. like if you asked Michael Bloomberg to come up with a room full of bad rich aliens, he would do something very close to this. when people say that it actually has "something to say" i have to roll my eyes. it is corporate fake rebellion garbage, the castigation of most generic Alien Monopoly Man rich people imaginable. along the way they run into slave children who tend space horses. they rescue the horses! people say this movie is brave lol.
1) you can die from using the force. this is a massive paradigm shift people are ignoring. Luke dying using the force was the first time anyone died from using the force. in fact, it doesn't ever seem like the force is something that takes from your physical health. force did not drain Yoda's life in ESB when he lifted the X-wing. yet Luke dies from using the force, it now is shown to sometimes require physical exertion. he is a substance abusice suicide caution case. at this point it is almost like the Jedi are a religious cult, obsessed with the force, addicts hooked on a substance that has now resulted in a fatality. what's more, this sets the precedent for JJ to follow up with more force life transfer powers. TLJ set the standard that Rey would far outshine Luke in anything he does, so JJ really had to one up the teleportation powers, hence all the new force stuff.
2) Reylo is a thing set up by Rian, promoted by him and his army of Twitter users and message board warriors who spammed GIFs of topless genocidal maniacs. everyone one of those blue check dweebs were totally fine promoting this toxic relationship as long as they could own the alt right. given the overwhelming amount of support the Reylo community gets from access media types (many of whome are Reylos with wide reaching mainstream channels) JJ was more or less forced to appease these fans who were so serviced in TLJ. thus that much hated kiss. thus the redemption of Ben. some things were likely demanded from the top in order to appease certain Loud Online demographics.
3) Canto Bight really is the stupidest waste of time in the theater while watching any Star Wars film and was the moment I decided it would be my last. far and away the worst sequence. i really felt insulted when i saw it. the politics are so broad and generically drawn, it felt aimed at the absolute lowest common denominator. like if you asked Michael Bloomberg to come up with a room full of bad rich aliens, he would do something very close to this. when people say that it actually has "something to say" i have to roll my eyes. it is corporate fake rebellion garbage, the castigation of most generic Alien Monopoly Man rich people imaginable. along the way they run into slave children who tend space horses. they rescue the horses! people say this movie is brave lol.
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-Arcadia-
Banned
Watched this for the first time last night. I wanted to watch Rise, and I liked the TFA story for the most part, and I figured, what could it hurt?
I have extensive experience with spoilers, know the plot backwards and forward, and theoretically should have been completely prepared. At least enough to enjoy some good aspects.
It still was an immense disappointment. By the time the credits rolled, I wondered just what I’d spent two and half hours watching.
It’s not as bad as some films out there, but it is both tonally aberrant, and a letdown as a Star Wars film in every way imaginable, and even as its own story, just doesn’t tell a tale really worth anything.
Honestly, if you’re in my situation, you could just read the Wikipedia plot entry and save yourself the time. Almost nothing really, actually happens in this movie, outside of the dual arc assassination of Luke and Snoke. It’s impressive how much it destroys, and how little it contributes.
I have extensive experience with spoilers, know the plot backwards and forward, and theoretically should have been completely prepared. At least enough to enjoy some good aspects.
It still was an immense disappointment. By the time the credits rolled, I wondered just what I’d spent two and half hours watching.
It’s not as bad as some films out there, but it is both tonally aberrant, and a letdown as a Star Wars film in every way imaginable, and even as its own story, just doesn’t tell a tale really worth anything.
Honestly, if you’re in my situation, you could just read the Wikipedia plot entry and save yourself the time. Almost nothing really, actually happens in this movie, outside of the dual arc assassination of Luke and Snoke. It’s impressive how much it destroys, and how little it contributes.
GoldenEye Samurai
Member
It ruined the whole series. I think that sums it the fuck up right there.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
It ruined the new trilogy. One can always think it is noncanon.
It is sad how this ensured rise of skywalker was screwed since it had to pick up the pieces from this mess.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
Q: Whenever you are writing, let’s say you are creating your own universe, you said you don’t think about actors, you are starting something from scratch, how is that approach versus something where you have a pre-existing universe? If you are writing characters for Star Wars, you have this universe, you have characters that everybody knows, and then now you are doing something from scratch. Do you find your approach is different for that?”
A: “No, not at all. Because I don’t really think in terms of universes or in terms of creating worlds or whatever. That’s not that interesting to me.”
Star Wars: The Last Jedi Director Rian Johnson Admits He Didn't Care About Star Wars Canon And History
Star Wars: The Last Jedi director Rian Johnson admitted he really didn't care about Star Wars canon in a recent interview discussing Johnson's Knives Out film.boundingintocomics.com
it was a bad idea to hire this man to work on the middle of the trilogy. he was not interested in world building in the least. he created nothing, added nothing, and only wasted everyone's time. he left JJ with having to make the equivalent of 2 movies in one.
the idea that "Luke saving people is stupid" is basically saying that Princess Leia was a fool in TFA. wasn't the entire point of that movie Leia sending Rey to get Luke so he would help? we are supposed to think Leia is stupid for thinking Luke would "come out with his laser sword" right? sorry Leia, i guess you were a fucking idiot to put your hope in this loser.
so good job making Leia out to be an optimistic idiot that dies alone. good job, Rian.
lol plus he had Kylo Ren standing right there and the two never said a word. then Carrie died. TLJ has them standing just hundreds of feet away. isn't Kylo super emo about his mom? did her not see her or something? how come he didn't bother even registering she was there? with the, uh, force? ah i forgot Kylo doesn't use the force in this shit movie.
Rian had a chance to have Leia and her son interact and he blew it. the one time in three movies the two of them are in the same spot and nope, nothing. instead we get some gaslighting DBZ bullshit. good job, once again.
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MacReady13
Member
To me it was a film that looks the part, and certainly the trailers gave me some hope of it being somewhat on the right path (even though I could never get on board bringing back Palpatine and I'm not a big fan of ANY of the new characters). So I went in fairly optimistic. I left the theater actually frustrated and quite pissed off that i'd wasted 2 hours of my time watching something that made no sense whatsoever.
What really gets me upset is that after the 3 sequels are out, places I actually listen to like red letter media STILL say the sequels are better than the prequels! How? What is it that i'm missing in these new films that say I should like them more than the prequels? At least the prequels made sense! These films follow no logical conclusion. They make no sense to me whatsoever in terms of story progression or timelines or anything really! Rey being so overpowered in such a tiny amount of time is a massive issue for me. Finn being a dolt in the 2nd film (which is one of the worst films I've ever seen) killed his character completely. The fact the first film coasted by just retreading the original film really didn't work for me at all. The whole trilogy is a complete balls up...
What really gets me upset is that after the 3 sequels are out, places I actually listen to like red letter media STILL say the sequels are better than the prequels! How? What is it that i'm missing in these new films that say I should like them more than the prequels? At least the prequels made sense! These films follow no logical conclusion. They make no sense to me whatsoever in terms of story progression or timelines or anything really! Rey being so overpowered in such a tiny amount of time is a massive issue for me. Finn being a dolt in the 2nd film (which is one of the worst films I've ever seen) killed his character completely. The fact the first film coasted by just retreading the original film really didn't work for me at all. The whole trilogy is a complete balls up...