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[Phoenix]

I don't want to turn this into an nVidia bashing thread but the point is not that partial precision was faster - of course the lower the precision the faster the application, so what? Let's go ahead and play all our games in FX12 or something? The point is that full precision spec for DX9 was 24-bit and nVidia went out of their way to incorporate 32-bit - so in full precision their cards ran like ASS and developers had to go out of their ways to code pp.

So is that a problem with the GPU (your original assertion) no. That is not a GPU bug and if you'd just have written the code in GL the nVidia driver team would have rejoiced with you while mocking the hoops you had to go through for DirectX (which they did on many occasions).

Your example with SM2 and SM3 is totally unrelated. SM3 and SM2 are 'standards'.

No they aren't. Can you take SM2 code for an nVidia part and run it exactly on an ATI SM2 part? No. SM2 and SM3 are specifications - they are very far from being standards.

When developers can not code for a standard but have to go out of their way to make their game run on a particular hardware that can not run the standards well because it was poorly designed, it becomes a pain in the ass.

OMG I can't believe you said that. You just brought up the biggest problem with shaders altogether. There are many reasons why there are multiple rendering paths for even the high end cards out there and it ain't precision issues. If you're going to claim that something isn't a standard because you have to take some time to make your application run on a particular piece of hardware then DirectX isn't a standard, OpenGL isn't a standard, hell not even HTML is a standard. Unless you're dealing with the same hardware in case A and case B, you will have to deal with the variations between case A and case B. Hell driver CAPBITs for YEEEEARS have been the source of many issues that make developers go out of their way to make a game run on a particular piece of hardware. You must be talking about some other API other than DirectX... that must be it.

 

[Phoenix]

I don't think Sony's approach is pure brute power. PS2 maybe, PS3 I think will be a much more refined than its older brother with all the horsepower "wow" to go with it.

Nvidia and IBM will bring a certain amount of finesse. IBM has commented the PS3 will be easier to work with than the PS2 and again Nvidia I think will ease Western devs and also help out in regards to image quality output.

It's a great marriage of technology, really.

nVidia also has EXCELLENT (if sometimes arrogant) developer relations people. That's something that ATI has never been strong at. However I assume that Microsoft will be leading the way in that regard because Microsoft has arguably the best developer relations group in all of IT.

 

[kaching]

What does that have to do with anything? Either the component was ready to ship with the product or it isn't.

You answer your own question. The component wasn't ready, so they chose not to ship it - a component of their flagship title that people have been anticipating for quite some time. What it has to do with anything is that it demonstrates that Sony isn't being pressured into doing anything on the online front that they're not prepared to do, which flies in the face of Dopey's claim.

 

[DopeyFish]

You answer your own question. The component wasn't ready, so they chose not to ship it - a component of their flagship title that people have been anticipating for quite some time. What it has to do with anything is that it demonstrates that Sony isn't being pressured into doing anything on the online front that they're not prepared to do, which flies in the face of Dopey's claim.

You'll see

 

[Dram]

No, you'll see

 

[kaching]

Dopey, if Sony was feeling pressured by MS, we would have seen a concrete response to MS's challenges by now. I'm sure "I'll see" Sony's online plans continue to develop but the pace of that development suggests little or no sense of urgency.

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Trust ATI R300 team and get Halo 3 done in time for PS3 launch.

Wow, MS trusts the Revolution GPU team??!!!

 

[Che]

Your right also, the Xbox has established no franchises this gen and of course we all know what that they will have nothing next gen. So why own one?

Admit it. Xbox with the exception of Halo is not the console of the great exclusivefranchices. Fable 2 will probably never exist since the first was such a dissapointment. Tecmo could easily defect to the PS3 camp since this time they're the ones with the superior graphics. Let's not forget that part of its success Xbox owes it to Sega which seems dead nowadays. And now that Sony pushes the OpenGL standard with Nvidia as their ally, the PS3 will probably have more PC ports. What's left? Halo and PGR?

 

[Duckhuntdog]

Kinda OT, but XNA keeps coming up in these threads, so I'd like to ask:

Does anyone really see this happening from day one with Xbox2 development? I.e. seamless crossover from PC to Xbox2 development? XNA seemed more of a suggestion and a proposal when it was first announced last year, and I'm thinking it's going to take some time before it reaches the situation Microsoft are hoping for.

For the lazy and faultering PC game companies XNA is a good. For console devs that more often than not write their own middleware... well, might use something from XNA but don't really need the whole thing.

Will also have to see what happens with other middleware providers.

 

[BeOnEdge]

i'm gonna chime in and say unless the entire united states goes out and buys HDTVs within the next 2 years, NEITHER console is gonna be leaps over eachother. 640x480 i believe is getting saturated. they can cram as much detail in as they want but its not gonna look good unless you're playing in HD. I'd say the graphics are gonna end up so close that it's gonna come down to 2 things. games and price. thats it. on the games front sony no longer has the advantage because of halo and xbox LIVE. 3rd party exclusives can sway it either way there. Price? Who knows. If you think MS grabbing the share they did this gen was interesting, i think next gen will be even more of a battle instead of a case of the newcomer getting his foot in the door and stealing a few things from the house.

 

[OniShiro]

If Xbox2 has a good launch lineup it will be hard for sony, when ps3 comes out it will only launch with a few bad games probably like all sony consoles, xbox2 will have more games by then, and MS will also be in the position to drop xbox2 price, making it even more competitive, buy a ps3 for 300$ with only 5 or 6 games to choose from, or a xbox2 for 200$ with 40 or 50 games to choose from?

 

[Duckhuntdog]

And now that Sony pushes the OpenGL standard with Nvidia as their ally, the PS3 will probably have more PC ports. What's left? Halo and PGR?

You know, it must anger MS that GL will not die and could actually become more prevelent thanks to Sony.

 

[thorns]

I don't understand Sony's design, they go out of their way to build a superprocessor to get rid of the pc programming paradigm (e.g. "having different chips for cpus and gpus, which is not very efficient") then they completely reverse their design and slap a custom GPU ala gc/xbox/xbox2. The overall architechture of the PS3 seems no more revolutionary than Xenon will be. And how powerful it will be depends on how much sony is willing to eat cost at launch, it seems, especially if it's going to have blu-ray and stuff like that.

 

[XS+]

It seems to me the *cool factor* is leaving Sony and going in a different direction. Sony has been popular and been the cool thing to get, but I think it's time is up and Xbox is starting to be viewed as the console to get. All of this is just opinion of course.

Sales don't reflect that. Sony is still dominating this market as they did when the PS2 launched. I don't see MGS3, RE4, or GTA4 on the Xbox. For the past couple months, the only big title, save for the upcoming KoTOR, the Xbox has seen is Halo 2. The PS2 has seen several, all of which have enjoyed critical and commercial success. Xbots have an amusing penchant for twisting facts to support the lie of the Xbox's momentum:

Xbox is selling "on par" (an exxageration) with the PS2.....after the PS2 has sold over 70 million worldwide.

Xbox is the #2 console....by less than a million units, finding itself outsold by roughly 50 million PS2 units.

Look at the top 10 charts in Europe, Japan, and the U.S. There is no momentum for the Xbox.

 

[JayFro]

Admit it. Xbox with the exception of Halo is not the console of the great exclusivefranchices. Fable 2 will probably never exist since the first was such a dissapointment. Tecmo could easily defect to the PS3 camp since this time they're the ones with the superior graphics. Let's not forget that part of its success Xbox owes it to Sega which seems dead nowadays. And now that Sony pushes the OpenGL standard with Nvidia as their ally, the PS3 will probably have more PC ports. What's left? Halo and PGR?

Just one problem, you can't take away Halo, Conker, Gotham, Crimson Skies, Perfect Dark, Killer Instinct, Mech Assault, Topspin or any other first party titles. Jade Empire and Forza also have decent chances at being great games.

I can easily make the same argument about PS3 though. What would it be without GTA, MGS, and FF? IMO GTA alone as an Xbox exclusive instead of PS2 exclusive would have nearly evened the console wars this gen.

 

[mrklaw]

640x480 i believe is getting saturated. they can cram as much detail in as they want but its not gonna look good unless you're playing in HD

Have you watched Television these days? on non-HD, thats only 640x240 (480i), and it looks great. Its not how many pixels you have, its what you do with them. with very good lighting, shading, supersampling etc etc you can easily have differentiation on a 'normal' TV.

 

[DSN2K]

Sony can launch with a terrible price, terrible games and still out sell everthing. People forget just how strong the "playstation" brand is.

man Microsoft really did their work on gamers didnt they. :lol

 

[XS+]

Just one problem, you can't take away Halo, Conker, Gotham, Crimson Skies, Perfect Dark, Killer Instinct, Mech Assault, Topspin or any other first party titles. Jade Empire and Forza also have decent chances at being great games.

I can easily make the same argument about PS3 though. What would it be without GTA, MGS, and FF? IMO GTA alone as an Xbox exclusive instead of PS2 exclusive would have nearly evened the console wars this gen.

Crimson Skies and Project Gotham are, at best, average. I haven't played Conker. Mech Assault is mediocre. Have Perfect Dark or Killer Instinct been announced? Try the Forza Demo and tell me it has a decent chance at being anything but a subpar GT knockoff.

 

[kaching]

I don't understand Sony's design

Maybe that's because you (and everyone else) don't have all the facts yet? Little early to call it one way or the other, based on the limited info provided in today's press release.

 

[JayFro]

Sales don't reflect that. Sony is still dominating this market as they did when the PS2 launched. I don't see MGS3, RE4, or GTA4 on the Xbox. For the past couple months, the only big title, save for the upcoming KoTOR, the Xbox has seen is Halo 2. The PS2 has seen several, all of which have enjoyed critical and commercial success. Xbots have an amusing penchant for twisting facts to support the lie of the Xbox's momentum:

Xbox is selling "on par" (an exxageration) with the PS2.....after the PS2 has sold over 70 million worldwide.

Xbox is the #2 console....by less than a million units, find itself outsold by roughly 50 million PS2 units.

Look at the top 10 charts in Europe, Japan, and the U.S. There is no momentum for the Xbox.

Look at the market share for Xbox in the USA for 2001, 2002, 2003, and now 2004. See a trend in those hardware percentages? The Xbox is GAINING positive momentum in the USA if you like it or not. Being completely blind to that shows how far up Sony's ass your head is buried. Do you see your lunch from yesterday yet? Look harder :lol

The mere fact that people are talking about a shift in momentum in recent months should be a clue about what's going on. Xbox sales weren't even half of what PS2 was putting up just one short year ago, and now it's outsold PS2 more than once. Blame it on shortages, but the numbers simply don't lie.

I see a passing of the torch, and I also called Xbox outselling PS2 for the first time way back last Spring and I was nearly laughed off these boards. I knew that the release of Gaiden, Splinter Cell 2, and of course the Halo bundle had the chance to do wonders for Xbox sales that month. Not only was I right about that but I was right about Xbox possibly outselling PS2 in the USA for some of the fall months. It's called reality, one product was hot previously and cools off after a period of time. X2 is ready to take the reigns, and I fully believe they will if they can score releases at the same time as PS3.

 

[JayFro]

Crimson Skies and Project Gotham are, at best, average. I haven't played Conker. Mech Assault is mediocre. Have Perfect Dark or Killer Instinct been announced? Try the Forza Demo and tell me it has a decent chance at being anything but a subpar GT knockoff.

Yeah, they bought Rare but you won't be seeing Perfect Dark or Killer Instinct! Someone is due for a reality check :lol

 

[XS+]

Look at the market share for Xbox in the USA for 2001, 2002, 2003, and now 2004. See a trend in those hardware percentages? The Xbox is GAINING positive momentum in the USA if you like it or not. Being completely blind to that shows how far up Sony's ass your head is buried. Do you see your lunch from yesterday yet? Look harder :lol

The mere fact that people are talking about a shift in momentum in recent months should be a clue about what's going on. Xbox sales weren't even half of what PS2 was putting up just one short year ago, and now it's outsold PS2 more than once. Blame it on shortages, but the numbers simply don't lie.

I see a passing of the torch, and I also called Xbox outselling PS2 for the first time way back last Spring and I was nearly laughed off these boards. I knew that the release of Gaiden, Splinter Cell 2, and of course the Halo bundle had the chance to do wonders for Xbox sales that month. Not only was I right about that but I was right about Xbox possibly outselling PS2 in the USA for some of the fall months. It's called reality, one product was hot previously and cools off after a period of time. X2 is ready to take the reigns, and I fully believe they will if they can score releases at the same time as PS3.

Microsoft hasn't taken any marketshare from Sony. You keep on fudging the math, as all Xbots do. If that tides you over, more power to you.

 

[JayFro]

Microsoft hasn't taken any marketshare from Sony. You keep on fudging the math, as all Xbots do. If that tides you over, more power to you.

October NPD

PS2: 289,000
Xbox: 217,000


September NPD

XBX: 265,067
PS2: 253,295

August NPD

XBX: 216,911
PS2: 211,690


Not cutting in huh?

 

[MrSingh]

well, that about wraps it up for MS! they should give up while they can!

 

[JayFro]

No response?

 

[XS+]

October NPD

PS2: 289,000
Xbox: 217,000


September NPD

XBX: 265,067
PS2: 253,295

August NPD

XBX: 216,911
PS2: 211,690


Not cutting in huh?

*sigh*

Do you understand what perspective is?

Microsoft has not cut into Sony's share of the market. Sony's hold has increased from last generation, remarkably. You're skewing facts to suit your lie. Look at the margin between the two systems. That alone invalidates your contention that the Xbox has any momentum. If, in the face of increased Xbox sales, the PS2 began to see a precipitious drop in sales, you might have point -- but that isn't happening.

 

[Che]

Just one problem, you can't take away Halo, Conker, Gotham, Crimson Skies, Perfect Dark, Killer Instinct, Mech Assault, Topspin or any other first party titles. Jade Empire and Forza also have decent chances at being great games.

I can easily make the same argument about PS3 though. What would it be without GTA, MGS, and FF? IMO GTA alone as an Xbox exclusive instead of PS2 exclusive would have nearly evened the console wars this gen.

Since most of the games you mentioned are mediocre with the exceptions of Halo and the Rare games, what you're saying is that Microsoft rests every hope in Rare. That's pretty bad.

And no the same thing could not be said for PS3. PS2 with its inferior graphics capabilities and Sony managed to hold on to all these developers. Imagine what a powerful PS3 which will probably be a lot stronger compared to other consoles could do (my opinion is that even Tecmo will join). On the contrary I think that now PS3 will be powerful there would be no reason to port games to other consoles like Revolution and especially Xenon.

 

[JayFro]

*sigh*

Do you understand what perspective is?

Microsoft has not cut into Sony's share of the market. Sony's hold has increased from last generation, remarkably. You're skewing facts to suit your lie. Look at the margin between the two systems. That alone invalidates your contention that the Xbox has any momentum. If, in the face of increased Xbox sales, the PS2 began to see a precipitious drop in sales, you might have point -- but that isn't happening.

Only a complete tool would actually *sigh* on a message board. Look at the recent numbers, notice a trend? Or will you just ignore facts and continue to spew drivel? It's about recent trends and MOMENTUM, nowhere did I talk about overall sales. So why the recent surge in Xbox numbers? Just dumb luck huh?

I'll have what this guy is having because he clearly can't see

 

[JayFro]

Since most of the games you mentioned are mediocre with the exceptions of Halo and the Rare games, what you're saying is that Microsoft rests every hope in Rare. That's pretty bad.

And no the same thing could not be said for PS3. PS2 with its inferior graphics capabilities and Sony managed to hold on to all these developers. Imagine what a powerful PS3 which will probably be a lot stronger compared to other consoles could do (my opinion is that even Tecmo will join). On the contrary I think that now PS3 will be powerful there would be no reason to port games to other consoles like Revolution and especially Xenon.

The same couldn't be said of PS3? Take the 3 above key PS2 franchises and release them at the same time on Xbox. Completely different results IMO not only this gen but the next as well. Why you would think Tecmo would take Gaiden or DOA from Xbox is beyond me. Sure Itagaki likes the best hardware, but moneyhats will surely prevent him from hopping on the PS3 ship with those titles. Graphical differences will be minor at best this gen, because most people (joe blow) don't play games on HDTV's.


So if all the other Xbox titles are simply mediocre Halo outsold the Gamecube by itself this generation?


Sony managed to hold on to devs? How hard is that when you just came off of a huge success with PS1 and you launched before MS or Ninty. Dreamcast doesn't count because EA didn't even support it, and without DVD it was doomed before it launched.

 

[Che]

October NPD

PS2: 289,000
Xbox: 217,000


September NPD

XBX: 265,067
PS2: 253,295

August NPD

XBX: 216,911
PS2: 211,690


Not cutting in huh?

Ummm guys do you realize that everyone who even thought of buying a PS2 has already bought it (something tells me that half of the Ps2s bought are because the previous ones were broken since Sony uses such a high quality standards for their consoles)? Also can you comprehent what PS2 shortage means? Also did you notice that the gap is getting bigger?

 

[XS+]

Ummm guys do you realize that everyone who even thought of buying a PS2 has already bought it (something tells me that half of the Ps2s bought are because the previous ones were broken since Sony uses such a high quality standards for their consoles)? Also can you comprehent what PS2 shortage means? Also did you notice thta the gap is getting bigger?

Don't even bother. It's not worth it. Xbots think the Xbox has momentum, Halo 2 is the best release of the year, and the Xbox2 will matter. There's no point in arguing with these fanatics. PS2 has outsold the Xbox by almost 50 million, yet Microsoft's system has "momentum." You can't argue with that brand of idiocy.

 

[JayFro]

Ummm guys do you realize that everyone who even thought of buying a PS2 has already bought it (something tells me that half of the Ps2s bought are because the previous ones were broken since Sony uses such a high quality standards for their consoles)? Also can you comprehent what PS2 shortage means? Also did you notice thta the gap is getting bigger?

The new NPD will be a big indicator as to whats going on, but the gap getting bigger over one month means nothing when at the same time Xbox was in low supply as well. The bottom line is that just over a year ago PS2 would routinely double Xbox monthly numbers I belive triple them as well.


As far as everyone already having purchased a PS2 and blah blah, 24 million PS2's have been sold through in the USA. Doesn't sound like everyone has one to me. How many PS1's have been sold in the USA? Saturation is a terrible excuse at this point.

 

[JayFro]

Don't even bother. It's not worth it. Xbots think the Xbox has momentum, Halo 2 is the best release of the year, and the Xbox2 will matter. There's no point in arguing with these fanatics. PS2 has outsold the Xbox by almost 50 million, yet Microsoft's system has "momentum." You can't argue with that brand of idiocy.

And if I had told you 8 months ago Xbox would outsell PS2 for even one month you and everyone else in this place would and or did laugh until that next month when the NPD hit. Keep calling people idiots, you just don't have a clue about trends or shifts........or much of anything for that matter.

 

[Che]

The same couldn't be said of PS3? Take the 3 above key PS2 franchises and release them at the same time on Xbox. Completely different results IMO not only this gen but the next as well. Why you would think Tecmo would take Gaiden or DOA from Xbox is beyond me. Sure Itagaki likes the best hardware, but moneyhats will surely prevent him from hopping on the PS3 ship with those titles. Graphical differences will be minor at best this gen, because most people (joe blow) don't play games on HDTV's.


So if all the other Xbox titles are simply mediocre Halo outsold the Gamecube by itself this generation?

You answered your own question about Tecmo. And I repeat: Microsoft doesn't have to luxury for moneyhats Tecmo needs, this time. They want to make profit. It seems that many of you haven't realized it yet. Also I repeat that Sony has perfect relations with 3rd parties and unless something groundbreaking happens there's no way they'll defect. No way.

 

[XS+]

And if I had told you 8 months ago Xbox would outsell PS2 for even one month you and everyone else in this place would and or did laugh until that next month when the NPD hit. Keep calling people idiots, you just don't have a clue about trends or shifts........or much of anything for that matter.

As has been repeated, that the Xbox occassionally outsells the PS2, at this juncture, does not denote any momentum.

 

[JayFro]

You answered your own question about Tecmo. And I repeat: Microsoft doesn't have to luxury
for moneyhats Tecmo needs, this time. Tey want to make profit. It seems that many of you haven't realized it yet. Also I repeat that Sony has perfect relations with 3rd parties and unless something groundbreaking happens there's no way they'll defect. No way.

DOA 4 will be on X2, no doubt in my mind. Itagaki hasn't exactly been speaking highly of Sony in recent times, and with the negligible difference in graphics there is simply no reason for Tecmo to jump ship with Gaiden and DOA.

 

[XS+]

DOA 4 will be on X2, no doubt in my mind. Itagaki hasn't exactly been speaking highly of Sony in recent times, and with the negligible difference in graphics there is simply no reason for Tecmo to jump ship with Gaiden and DOA.

negligible difference in graphics....right

:\

 

[JayFro]

negligible difference in graphics....right

:\

A 6 month difference in the time the hardware is being developed, negligible at best. X2 probably launches Fall 05'. PS3 hits Japan in the Spring of 06' and if you buy the CELL hype I feel bad for ya. Xbox had an 18 month advantage over PS2 for hardware and came out way ahead, but the PS3 isn't going to have that luxury over X2. It will have just 1/3 of the that time, and CELL has already been in dev since 2000/2001. Nvidia brings nothing to the table that ATI certainly can't match or come very close to matching.


Remember the PS2 was going to churn out toystory graphics :lol :lol :lol

 

[Vennt]

It tickles me to see who some of the people using the "negligible difference in graphics" line are, the irony is delicious :lol

Either way, it is far far far too early to be making any kind of predictions as to the relative differences between the next-gen systems. You people must have incredbly weak bladders to have to start your pissing matches so early in the game

 

[Che]

A 6 month difference in the time the hardware is being developed, negligible at best. X2 probably launches Fall 05'. PS3 hits Japan in the Spring of 06' and if you buy the CELL hype I feel bad for ya. Xbox had an 18 month advantage over PS2 for hardware and came out way ahead, but the PS3 isn't going to have that luxury over X2. It will have just 1/3 of the that time, and CELL has already been in dev since 2000/2001. Nvidia brings nothing to the table that ATI certainly can't match or come very close to matching.


Remember the PS2 was going to churn out toystory graphics :lol :lol :lol

Since you don't get it, this will be probably be my last reply to you. First Microsoft wants to make profit. Don't expect Xenon to be the dream machine Xbox was. Second you make it look like Cell being developed from 2000 is something bad. Cell is undoubtly superior to any other processor (well at least on the price/power perspective). I will also repeat that the developement time of Xenon's GPU was too fast and was finished way too early. Xenon will work with 2004 technology.

 

[gofreak]

For the lazy and faultering PC game companies XNA is a good. For console devs that more often than not write their own middleware... well, might use something from XNA but don't really need the whole thing.

Will also have to see what happens with other middleware providers.

But XNA isn't middleware? It's more of a proposed protocol for the interoperability of existing middleware solutions, right?

XNA is such a nebulous thing. There seems to be so much misunderstanding about it as far as I can see, among general gamers. It seems to be difficult to communicate, which is understandable, but that makes me even more annoyed when I see people reference it in relation to Xbox2 without actually knowing what it is. (I'm not referring to people here, but people generally around the web )

 

[gofreak]

A 6 month difference in the time the hardware is being developed, negligible at best. X2 probably launches Fall 05'. PS3 hits Japan in the Spring of 06' and if you buy the CELL hype I feel bad for ya. Xbox had an 18 month advantage over PS2 for hardware and came out way ahead, but the PS3 isn't going to have that luxury over X2. It will have just 1/3 of the that time, and CELL has already been in dev since 2000/2001. Nvidia brings nothing to the table that ATI certainly can't match or come very close to matching.


Remember the PS2 was going to churn out toystory graphics :lol :lol :lol

Why do people (mostly Xbox fanboys these days) insist that the longer you are working on something, the worst off you are? They seem to count the age of something from the day work started on it, not the day work finished. Cell is a very 2005 tech.

See how much of difference 6 months makes in PC graphics..

 

[tahrikmili]

So is that a problem with the GPU (your original assertion) no. That is not a GPU bug and if you'd just have written the code in GL the nVidia driver team would have rejoiced with you while mocking the hoops you had to go through for DirectX (which they did on many occasions).

This is so wrong. There isn't even a standard coding path in OpenGL. *rolls eyes* Not to mention that nVidia actually has the exact same problems in OpenGL - they were only spared in Doom 3 because Carmack played ball and went out of his way to drop precision and reduce the shader lengths throughout the game because his pockets were filled with nvidia's cash.. nVidia's problems are API-independent, whenever long shader codes are fed to the NV3x's pesky pipelines, it gets stuck, pukes, rolls over and dies.

No they aren't. Can you take SM2 code for an nVidia part and run it exactly on an ATI SM2 part? No. SM2 and SM3 are specifications - they are very far from being standards.

Yes they are. Yes you can take SM2 code for any nvIdia part and run it exactly on an ATI SM2 part. You don't know what you are talking about. MS defines DX9 specs and therefore SM2 so any program coded for 100% SM2 compatibility runs 100% on all DX-compatible hardware.

OMG I can't believe you said that. You just brought up the biggest problem with shaders altogether. There are many reasons why there are multiple rendering paths for even the high end cards out there and it ain't precision issues. If you're going to claim that something isn't a standard because you have to take some time to make your application run on a particular piece of hardware then DirectX isn't a standard, OpenGL isn't a standard, hell not even HTML is a standard. Unless you're dealing with the same hardware in case A and case B, you will have to deal with the variations between case A and case B. Hell driver CAPBITs for YEEEEARS have been the source of many issues that make developers go out of their way to make a game run on a particular piece of hardware. You must be talking about some other API other than DirectX... that must be it.

PC Gaming is dying because of people like you and Consoles are thriving because of people like you who don't force their IHVs to respect standards. When PC devs meet people who think like you, they go "WTF?! Wasn't there supposed tp be a SINGLE API? Now I'm expected to code for two different companies? Screw that, I'll code for two different consoles and milk the money where it's at.." and desert. Somehow I get the feeling you would cream your pants if cg returned. You know what? I don't get you. You're arguing against the existence of indisputable industry standards like an nvidiot, but I doubt you are one..

Anyway, complaining about driver problems has nothing to do with the issue at hand you're trying to twist the focus of the discussion. You know what, I really think you should stick to consoles because you have no idea what you're talking about :lol

 

[aaaaa0]

Yes they are. Yes you can take SM2 code for any nvIdia part and run it exactly on an ATI SM2 part. You don't know what you are talking about. MS defines DX9 specs and therefore SM2 so any program coded for 100% SM2 compatibility runs 100% on all DX-compatible hardware.

Well, yes and no, sorta. DX guarantees that the card will at least run the shader, provided you stay within the limitations defined in that version of the shader spec. (Ignoring the problem of driver bugs which DX has no control over.)

However, DX does not guarantee you will get *good* performance on all possible compliant cards given a compliant shader. NVidia cards are faster at some things, and ATI cards are faster at other things.

This is especially evident in the GeForceFX series of cards, where it's really easy to accidentally write a shader that will fall off the "fast path" and cause some horrible performance hits.

This is the reason some developers end up coding seperate shader paths for different cards, despite their nominal shader level compatibility.

 

[tahrikmili]

However, DX does not guarantee you will get *good* performance on all possible compliant cards given a compliant shader. NVidia cards are faster at some things, and ATI cards are faster at other things.

Neither should DX guarantee performance - the IHVs should guarantee performance on standard API paths to sell their cards. And if they don't, they get shafted like nVidia got with NV3x and learned they don't own the market. It served them right, at least NV40 was a good chip

 

[thorns]

ffs why isn't xs+ being banned yet? he's a known troll.

 

[Che]

ffs why isn't xs+ being banned yet? he's a known troll.

Yes let's ban all non-xbox fans for stating their opinions. Me thinks that xbox fans have become too spoiled here, since people who argue with them are often getting banned. On the other side fanboys like snapty and many others are protected by the mods.

 

[thorns]

Yes let's ban all non-xbox fans for stating their opinions. Me thinks that xbox fans have become too spoiled here, since people who argue with them are often getting banned. On the other side fanboys like snapty are protected by the mods.

he's obviously trolling, nothing to do being anti or pro-xbox. anyway it's the mod's judgement anyway.

 

[Shogmaster]

I think whether PS3 will be able to stretch it's supposed "huge" advantage over XBox 2 will depend on the amount of RAM that Sony and MS has allotted for the respective machines.

In my observance, most of the advantage XBox had over PS2 and GC in graphics is down to it's RAM advantage, usually manifesting itself in poorer textures, and sometimes, cut down level size. Sure, there are some shader FXs that cannot be replicated on PS2 that XBox can, but gauging from reactions of the console gamers in general, it matters very little. GT4 wins many people's best racing game crown, mostly on polish and art, not superior FXs, nor better AI and physics.

It will be very intersting to see how much RAM each machine ends up with. Will PS3 be able to leverage it's later release date to cram in more RAM than XBox 2? Or will it end up with similar amount of RAM due to costs of cell, blu-ray, etc.. I personally have no idea, and can't even come close to calling it at this early stage.

 

[Che]

he's obviously trolling, nothing to do being anti or pro-xbox. anyway it's the mod's judgement anyway.

Snapty is trolling 24/7, DJ Demon was trolling like there's no tomorrow and still it took them months to ban him, plus many others troll mainly Nintendo threads all the time but noone is getting banned. Hell even mods troll Nintendo threads. And btw can you quote a post where you think XS+ is trolling?