Support NeoGAF

[fhqwhgads]

There's no denying that TF2 has seen better days, whilst the game has been on the mend from it's darker days (2014 TF2 is something I want to forget) TF2 is certainly past it's prime and the height of it's glory. Recently I've seen a slew of posters going on about how TF2 used to be so good before. Honestly, I don't get it. TF2 has always had it's flaws regardless of time.

Vanilla TF2 wasn't exactly balanced
This can bee argued as how no game is ever balanced, but people act like TF2 in it's heyday was perfectly balanced and how issues. Let's not forget the times when Demoman had twice as much ammo, had a larger clip size on his grenade launcher and the stickybomb launcher was the undisputed best weapon in the game. The dev team even jokingly called stickybombs winbombs based on how ludicrously powerful they were.

Couple that with how Pyro and Spy were practically useless, based on how Pyro had no way of dealing with projectiles, making Solider and Demoman a losing match up no matter what. Spy had to wait a whole second before he could backstab and the invisibility watch couldn't refill with ammo and lasted much less than usual. Considering how Spy has been ludicrously buffed recently, thinking about Vanilla Spy makes me shudder.

The balance also made Classes a lot less dynamic to play. Engineer couldn't do anything but build a nest and wait, so if your team was doing well you were in for a very boring play. No hauling, no ways to be aggressive, just play a waiting game. Also no upgrading Dispensers or Teleporters, so even less for you to do. Sniper was boring as well, being the literal sniper it was his only role. Nothing dynamic there, just a point and click game. Of course, that's all changed now.

TF2 always had bad weapons
People aren't a fan of TF2's slew of weapons, and there's no denying there's been a lot of stinkers in the history of the game, but people act like this is a new phenomenon when actually, TF2's balance with weapons has never been great. The Backburner, every Scout weapon from the Scout Update, the Nascahahahasha, The Huntsman, every Spy weapon from Sniper vs Spy, Demoknight as a whole, The Gunslinger....

All these weapons were questionable in some way, even if they weren't unbalanced. Demoknight was hated because people thought it would ruin Demoman as a whole, how a team with a Demoknight would always lose to a team with a Demoman. And of course some were just plain annoying, Backburner giving Pyro more health than Solider, Sandman completely stunning enemies, Huntsman's gigantic hitboxes, the Dead Ringer making Spy virtually immortal....

These weapons have all been changed for the better now, thankfully, though the sting is still there for many. Backburner is still seen as a "noob" weapon and Demoknights still get the hatred of many, but the main point is how for as much as good ol' TF2 is remembered, it wasn't free from the same annoyances that have plauged the newer additions to TF2. Besides, doesn't anyone remember Smissmiss 2012? Vaccinator, Loose Cannon, Rescue Ranger, those were awesome weapons for post-classic TF2.

Valve has never been good at map design
TF2's starter map selection might be iconic, but it's not exactly great. Only half the maps are any good and one of them is debatable (Granary and Well are lovely but Gravel Pit has been a bit of a mixed bag for some) On the other hand, you've got 2fort and Dustbwol always being known for the place to stack 5 engineers in one place and cause an endless stalemate thanks to the chokepoints, whilst Hydro is a cool idea on paper, but the constant switching of areas and the stop/start nature of the map makes it all very annoying and unsatisfying to play.

Even beyond that TF2's starter maps, added maps werent; great either. The community might've been involved but Valve isn't great at picking community maps either. Goldrush was Dustbowl in payload form, Hoodoo wasn't much better. Both Egypt and Junction were also Dustbowl-sque and stand as two of the worst maps in the game to this day. Turbine showed everyone that CTF mode still isn't that good at all (Doublecross is still the only good CTF map in the game) and let's not remember Arena mode. Apparently Valve thought that Team Deathmatch was perfect for a class based shooter, and given how Valve doesn't even include it on quickplay anymore it shows how much it's fondly remembered.

And that's all I got. I could do more but I'm lazy. Ultimately, this isn't to discredit TF2's origins, but more to show a more balanced view of TF2's earlier days without the added nostalgia goggles. Feels weird to say that, but then again TF2 is almost 9 years old. That's a scary thought.

 

[Spring Drive]

Too many different weapons with different effects is just confusing

 

[pizzacat]

Playing with the updated versions of the vanilla weapons only is probably what they mean because they're the most fun

 

[TimmiT]

For me it's that modern Team Fortress 2 is too bloated. Too many different weapons and stuff to choose from. It's why I like Overwatch: each character just has one set of weapons and abilities and I don't have to worry about choosing a weapon or ability for that character that might be better.

Also hats suck.

 

[Coffee Dog]

TF2's balance wasnt really a problem because it wasnt a competetive game. You could go on mean backstab streaks as spy from launch on yiur average server.

 

[AJ_Wings]

Vanilla engineer couldn't pick up and place built buildings to change positions, they had to be destroyed...

Yeah, TF2 is in a much better place than it was. Certainly much better than say around End of The Line where Valve flat out didn't give a fuck about the game and just shat out a couple of cosmetics without bothering with rebalances and fixes.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Demoman was also horrendously overpowered. Almost no delay on his sticky bombs, and no falloff.

There was a certain point where TF2 was at its best. It had some wackiness like the Dead Ringer, but the map selection was vastly better than at launch, new hats were fun and interesting rather than cheap, barely-veiled microtransaction bullshit. Then at some point, there ceased to be any effort at all. I would say the Polycount Update was an omen of this happening, with dozens of items thrown in without regard for balance or optimization, but there might have been some decent updates after Polycount, I really can't keep track because there were so goddamn many. The stepping off point for me, and many others was, aptly, the End of the Line update. They hyped up some fan-made SFM movie and a map to go with it, then at the last second pulled the map and released the same fucking "dozens of new items in new crates" garbage they had been peddling for years. For an update that had supposedly been a year in the making. New weapons weren't something new, they became more crap to keep track of. Hats were introduced by the dozen with absolutely no regard for theme or making any sense with the class or setting. People joke about it being a "war-themed hat simulator," but it's not even just that. At some point, TF2 ceased being a class-based team shooter and became a first-person party game.

 

[Comfort Jones]

Think they'll ever balance the classes so that competitive no longer needs to impossible a billion rules to make it work? I cant think of another game where the comp scene plays such a different game from what you generally expect from pubs.

 

[Slamtastic]

Think they'll ever balance the classes so that competitive no longer needs to impossible a billion rules to make it work? I cant think of another game where the comp scene plays such a different game from what you generally expect from pubs.

smash bros

 

[Pendas]

Vanilla engineer couldn't pick up and place built buildings to change positions, they had to be destroyed...

Yeah, TF2 is in a much better place than it was. Certainly much better than say around End of The Line where Valve flat out didn't give a fuck about the game and just shat out a couple of cosmetics without bothering with rebalances and fixes.

This was part of the Engineer Class Update that every class got. Where they received 1 alternate weapon and QOL fixes. This was not the issue.

The problem was the updates after this one. When multiple classes got multiple weapons and the game got too bloated with hats, crates, drops, trading, crafting, item set bonus's, etc. It went from "pick-up and play" to "grind out the best weapon / hat combo's through crafting / trading..THEN you can play on equal footing with everyone."

 

[KelpPlankton]

People just mean TF2 without the clutter. Without the cosmetics, without all the different weapons. Being able to see a Demoman and knowing what they're able to do, without having to worry about them being either a normal Demoman or a Demoknight or trying to see if they've got a shield and a grenade launcher or if they're wearing boots that give them extra health or if those boots are just cosmetic boots or etc etc etc

They're not literally asking for TF2 as it was at launch, they're lamenting the arbitrary complexity the game's gained over time.

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Think they'll ever balance the classes so that competitive no longer needs to impossible a billion rules to make it work? I cant think of another game where the comp scene plays such a different game from what you generally expect from pubs.

The balance is almost irrelevant at this point. The game's lack of optimization is probably past the point of repair, the pushing of matchmaking and influx of free to play users slowly and painfully destroyed most communities, and now all that's left is a wasteland of Valve servers, custom servers, and generally awful people.

 

[Comfort Jones]

smash bros

Yeah but those settings are very clear and it wasn't exactly rare for kids to turn off items anyway. TF2 you've got stuff like weapon spread, random crits, class limits, and weapon bans. Smash it's just setting a time limit, know what stages are banned, no items, nothing that actually changes character stats or strategies the way changing the way weapons work does ffs.

In other words it's pretty easy to have a friend over and play Smash in a competitive way, in TF2 you have to go so out of your way it's absurd. They're forcing it to be something it's not because Valve refuses to redo certain things.

The balance is almost irrelevant at this point. The game's lack of optimization is probably past the point of repair, the pushing of matchmaking and influx of free to play users slowly and painfully destroyed most communities, and now all that's left is a wasteland of Valve servers, custom servers, and generally awful people.

Depressing. Weird to think I met some of my closest online friends through TF2 and none of us have touched it for years now.

 

[Smithy C]

This post has reminded me that TF2 is almost 10 years old. Maybe I should download it again, for old times sake...

Edit: It's fucking 17gb nowadays?!

 

[Nottle]

I like all the wacky bullshit, but there is something likable about vanilla as well. I liked it when the hats were cool but still thematically appropriate. Tf2 has such a killer art direction it's sort of sad to see that be tarnished as time has gone by. The weapons are the same way, things have gotten out of hand. Instead of being weapons that do something a bit different that still fit thematically, we have insanity.

Also what was bad about 2014?

 

[mishakoz]

Modern TF2 is fine. Yes its a game with a lot of crazy weapons, and some border on ridiculous, but i feel as if a lot of thought goes into balancing. Some weapons are more powerful, some are useless, but i dont think it ever breaks the game and ever now and then a new weapon will come by and Ill change my play style and have a blast at it.

Ive been playing TF2 since before release and the "Vanilla" game has a lot of issues. Spy is super underpowered, to an extent so is engineer and scout. Here are some aspects of "vanilla Tf2"

Only level 1 dispensers, teleporters
Backstab animation took forever.
disguise animation took forever, cloaking too
scouts had no defense against most things, instant killed by any sentry most of the time
No kritzkrieg
cant move buildings
No airblast for the pyro

So yeah, game has improved. Can you play Vanilla TF2 anywhere? would love to try it.

 

[CountAntonius]

No the game wasn't perfect but it was much better than it is now. What they should have done.

-Tweak and balance the default class kits to make them fit their role better and be more useful.
-Add complete skins instead of different parts and have some guidelines so that these skins keep some level of visual cleanliness and no dyes.
-Gun skins, New maps, Modes and holiday themed stuff is all good.

Even as someone who enjoys currently TF2(I actually do) can admit the way they went about updating the game was in the worst possible way. They just threw shit at the wall and saw what stuck. It took them years to finally balance some of the items but there is still way too many and the game feels insanely random with stuff flying everywhere, people covered in piss or milk, or stunned by baseballs and the worse is how absolutely ugly characters look with their neon floppy hats pets floating around behind them.

People just mean TF2 without the clutter. Without the cosmetics, without all the different weapons. Being able to see a Demoman and knowing what they're able to do, without having to worry about them being either a normal Demoman or a Demoknight or trying to see if they've got a shield and a grenade launcher or if they're wearing boots that give them extra health or if those boots are just cosmetic boots or etc etc etc

They're not literally asking for TF2 as it was at launch, they're lamenting the arbitrary complexity the game's gained over time.

Perfect post.

 

[Randdalf]

Valve has never been good at map design

Bullshit. Granary, Gravel Pit, Badwater, Badlands, Doublecross, Gold Rush... I could go on, all classic map designs. The way they integrated verticality into the level design was second to none.

 

[Miker]

Truly vanilla TF2 is so damn old that when I think vanilla TF2, I think of it after all 9 classes had received their respective updates. One alternate weapon per slot was manageable, hats were few and far in between, and the game was in a mostly solid state balance-wise. I would say most people would agree with that as "vanilla," unless people are legitimately clamoring for launch day vanilla TF2.

 

[enzo_gt]

Like others have said, it's a poorly expressed or misattributed nostalgia for when the game mechanics were more predictable than they are now, where the game has become bloated and the game design and development revolves around putting more drastically gameplay-altering and complicating shit in the game.

TF2 has had many, many mechanical problems over the years, and people forget how unpolished it was to begin.

 

[Guess Who]

People just mean TF2 without the clutter. Without the cosmetics, without all the different weapons. Being able to see a Demoman and knowing what they're able to do, without having to worry about them being either a normal Demoman or a Demoknight or trying to see if they've got a shield and a grenade launcher or if they're wearing boots that give them extra health or if those boots are just cosmetic boots or etc etc etc

They're not literally asking for TF2 as it was at launch, they're lamenting the arbitrary complexity the game's gained over time.

Yup.

I don't literally want "TF2 exactly how it was at launch", I want "TF2 without all the ridiculous shitty cruft they've frankensteined onto it."

 

[TheYanger]

I don't think "Vanilla TF2" was the height of the game. But it was far better than it is now. To me the very best point of TF2 was just as the first round of class updates ended. You had like 2 weapons per slot per class and it was easy to track everything.

 

[RandomExpletive]

I sorta get peoples complaints on here about the absurd number of cosmetics and the ruined artstyle, but I'll never understand people's complaint that the game is unplayable because of all that.

Now I would agree we had a sweetspot back in... I dunno 2011 or 2012, but the game is still fun to play (though to be fair... I ONLY play OW now ). Up until our community died, you could hop onto the server and have a grand old time, new weapons/hats be damned. The old stuff still works great, and if you think theres an advantage to having unlocks you need to git gud <3

Though that last bit is probably my absurd hour count talking...

 

[fhqwhgads]

Also what was bad about 2014?

No updates for the first half of the year (Unless you count a hat crate as an update)

Love and War update being the first update in months, it featured a handful of new weapons but an utter slew of new crates that took centre stage for the whole update, rather than the weapons. Not a bad update, just disappointing.

Halloween Update was the worst yet, being on a map no one liked with a gimmicky minigame that got old fast. Also suffered from a slew of bugs and glitches.

End of the Line being a major disappointment, no new weapons and a ton of new hats, no new map added in despite it being promised. New "Duck Journal" which you had to pay for, which ultimately meant nothing but bragging rights and felt like a quick cash scheme.

Smissmas update had no new weapons and focused on a game mode that no one cared about (Mannpower which was some crazy mode involving power ups and grappling hooks, not well recived)

 

[Jaagen]

I don't think "Vanilla TF2" was the height of the game. But it was far better than it is now. To me the very best point of TF2 was just as the first round of class updates ended. You had like 2 weapons per slot per class and it was easy to track everything.

Agree. I fell out after that.

 

[Mechazawa]

People just mean TF2 without the clutter. Without the cosmetics, without all the different weapons. Being able to see a Demoman and knowing what they're able to do, without having to worry about them being either a normal Demoman or a Demoknight or trying to see if they've got a shield and a grenade launcher or if they're wearing boots that give them extra health or if those boots are just cosmetic boots or etc etc etc

They're not literally asking for TF2 as it was at launch, they're lamenting the arbitrary complexity the game's gained over time.

Yuuuuup.

It started getting a little too ridiculous for me once the Soldier got some vaporizing rocket launcher. I'm sure i could still hop in on TF2 and have some fun, but at a certain point, they should've limited how many weapon variations the classes could have. Most have like 10 or something at this point.

 

[Won]

Core issue of modern day TF2 is basically always "bloat". One of classic TF2's main strengths was simplicity, which kinda went away over time. The Polycount update is usually where people tend to draw the line I think, since it suddenly threw a lot of new stuff at the game for the sake of throwing stuff at it.

No one really wants the launch version of TF2. (Well, I'm sure there is always one crazy guy to prove me wrong.)

 

[Leafhopper]

Silhouettes actually meant something back then.

 

[Zaru]

Aside from Demoknights being Valve's greatest mistake, I don't really feel negative about anything they've added. I can easily ignore the monetized side of the game and still have fun.

 

[Slamtastic]

Not to sound like a "git gud" type, bust most of the lamenting over the existence of weapons just sounds like people not wanting to put forth the effort to learn the game.

Yeah, most of the non-gameplay stuff is terrible thanks to arbitrary fake virtual scarcity imposed by the economists and psychologists at Valve to ring you dry with their gambling simulator, but having more gameplay variety, freshness, and personalization does nothing but improve a game.

"Bloat" is a silly complaint for a game because you're talking about value. The game won't get boring because you always have new stuff to try, learn about, etc.

The opposite end of the spectrum is Overwatch, where I've played every character several times on both sides in every map, in the beta before it even came out, and I'm steadily ticking off my list of desired costumes, so I'm left wondering when new content will be coming.

 

[Reverb Shock]

My favourite era of TF2 was just after the release of the Sniper vs Spy update, right when Valve made the weapons for those two classes unlock through achievements. I think the Sniper vs Spy update was the year CoD: MW2 launched, so I stopped playing TF2 for at least a year. When I came back to TF2 practically everything had changed. You couldn't unlock the weapons through achivements anymore, every class had a silly amount of items and there were so many different maps.

I'm not saying TF2 gaining more content made the game worse, but if you weren't playing each month and keeping up to date with the patches, it was very easy to get overwhelmed with everything the game has to offer.

 

[CountAntonius]

Silhouettes actually meant something back then.

Fantastic PDF to read through about the design choices in TF2 before hats.

 

[Azoor]

Vanilla TF2 wasn't perfect. But the simplicity made the game have some sort of purity that rarely any other competitive game had. You knew what all the classes had and that gave you time to plan on how to tackle your opponent with the tools you are given.

You can't say the same thing to modern TF2.

 

[Fliesen]

People just mean TF2 without the clutter. Without the cosmetics, without all the different weapons. Being able to see a Demoman and knowing what they're able to do, without having to worry about them being either a normal Demoman or a Demoknight or trying to see if they've got a shield and a grenade launcher or if they're wearing boots that give them extra health or if those boots are just cosmetic boots or etc etc etc

They're not literally asking for TF2 as it was at launch, they're lamenting the arbitrary complexity the game's gained over time.

this.

TF2 lost much of its readability. All of a sudden, that sniper aiming at you could be a 'Hanzo' or a 'Widowmaker'. That Demoman could be a 'Genji' or a 'Junkrat'.

That Heavy could have a self heal, or not.

 

[213372bu]

Aside from demoknight and huntsman sniper, every weapon addition to TF2 has ruined the game, and caused people to turn into try-hards instead of actually playing with the team.

Medics stopped healing.

Scouts stopped disrupting.

Spies stopped actually hiding.

Soldiers stopped group killing.

etc.

That and some of the OP weapons were only fixed months after being noted in a bug report.

Forcing people to use one weapon and use their class like it was originally meant to just makes the game more fun. Overwatch is proof.

 

[Jawmuncher]

I'll always prefer vanilla because of how simple it was. For me just way too much was added.

 

[jwhit28]

My favorite time with tf2 was right when payload was released. Once we were organizing get together to grind achievements for weapons the spark started to die.

 

[Guess Who]

Not to sound like a "git gud" type, bust most of the lamenting over the existence of weapons just sounds like people not wanting to put forth the effort to learn the game.

Yeah, most of the non-gameplay stuff is terrible thanks to arbitrary fake virtual scarcity imposed by the economists and psychologists at Valve to ring you dry with their gambling simulator, but having more gameplay variety, freshness, and personalization does nothing but improve a game.

"Bloat" is a silly complaint for a game because you're talking about value. The game won't get boring because you always have new stuff to try, learn about, etc.

It's not about the sheer number of weapons, it's about how half-assed Valve are about adding new weapons to the game. If Valve got every class ten different weapons for every slot and they were all worthwhile and balanced additions to the game this would be a different conversation, but that's not what we have. What we have is a bunch of weapons that are basically "+5 One Stat -5 Another Stat Because That's How Balance Works, Right?", other weapons that are straight upgrades, other weapons that are so pointless they barely justify existing, and a bajillion weapon designs by equally as many artists that completely clash with the artstyle of the rest of the game.

 

[QuantumSquid]

My dream version of TF2 is the one we have today (in terms of BS like the overpowered sticky launcher and slow backstabs being fixed), but without any cosmetics, and with graphics that look like this:

You know, the original vision they had for TF2's colorful, cartoony art style that still felt grounded in the universe they had created. Before shit like Octodad hats became a thing.

The TF2 of today is a shell of its former self, and the only reason it still has a healthy playerbase is because it's free to play and even in its current state it's still way better than the vast majority of free to play games on Steam.

 

[Perro]

All these demoknight complains smh
Don't want to be that git gud guy, but git gud guys!

 

[CountAntonius]

"Git Gud" doesn't apply when a ton of the people who complain about the game are pro players.

 

[AwesomeMeat]

I thought this was going to be a thread about the original and unreleased TF2. I am still bitter... In typical Valve fashion, I waited for that game so long. The new TF2 did nothing for me, though I'm sure it is just fine.

RIP modern war TF2.

 

[enzo_gt]

Not to sound like a "git gud" type, bust most of the lamenting over the existence of weapons just sounds like people not wanting to put forth the effort to learn the game.

Yeah, most of the non-gameplay stuff is terrible thanks to arbitrary fake virtual scarcity imposed by the economists and psychologists at Valve to ring you dry with their gambling simulator, but having more gameplay variety, freshness, and personalization does nothing but improve a game.

"Bloat" is a silly complaint for a game because you're talking about value. The game won't get boring because you always have new stuff to try, learn about, etc.

The opposite end of the spectrum is Overwatch, where I've played every character several times on both sides in every map, in the beta before it even came out, and I'm steadily ticking off my list of desired costumes, so I'm left wondering when new content will be coming.

There's a difference between "put some time into the game to get better" and the years of updates and acclimation that is required to jump into TF2 even after a short break. Like, they barely correlate. The business model is built around profiting off of those same people who will spend hours farming drops and metal and that affects the gameplay. Even when I was out of school and didn't have shit to do I had a hard time keeping up with the new weapons and influx of content. Then they added crates and everyone's inventory started becoming bloated, and so on and so on.

And I wholly disagree with the bolded. Again, fundamental difference between something being new/different and something being problematic. There can be limits to personalization that are not approaching infinity. Limited choice has it's advantages, and the best TF2 experiences I've had are when that was the case.

 

[Zia]

I don't have any issues with the weapons they've added, particularly since they're more balanced than ever. However, I do have a problem with the grotesque paints that they've chosen to add to the game, which totally go against the spirit of the original art direction, and the user made maps they've been adding to the official rotation in lieu of actual, Valve-driven updates, such as Suijin and all of the alien invasion crap.

 

[dimb]

I think you're totally off on Valve not having good map design. Even the ones that weren't balanced that well still had something to them. It also didn't really matter if Valve was picking the mediocre maps out of the gate when servers had strong server communities that would really focus on the good ones.

Obsessing over the oddities to balance out of the gate misses the point of TF2. It was goofy fun that had a simplistic charm to it. Valve's direction for the game wound up creating micromanagement elements to aspects of the game nobody wants to deal with.

 

[HappyPuppy]

People just mean TF2 without the clutter. Without the cosmetics, without all the different weapons. Being able to see a Demoman and knowing what they're able to do, without having to worry about them being either a normal Demoman or a Demoknight or trying to see if they've got a shield and a grenade launcher or if they're wearing boots that give them extra health or if those boots are just cosmetic boots or etc etc etc

They're not literally asking for TF2 as it was at launch, they're lamenting the arbitrary complexity the game's gained over time.

Yeap that is the reason I stopped playing. Instead of adding stuff to an already great game, it added nuisance to my experience. At first it did add QoL improvements and some fixing but, It decided to crank the volume to 11 and I just saw it as noise.
It went against it's own design choices, changed how the game looked and felt. It became too *wink wink, nodge* for my tastes.
Still one of my favorite multiplayer, it holds a place in my heart and made some good friends. Started playing a week ago and it still fun to be a useless spy and stalk snipers.

 

[Puruzi]

TF2 is great right now. Hats don't even do anything, and the whole thing about there being too many weapons is stupid.

 

[woopWOOP]

Vanilla demomen were scum

 

[rockmanjoe]

I liked all the Spy weapons they added. Each changed his playstyle in interesting ways. Except Dead Ringer, which has always been dumb.

I'd also like "vanilla" modes, but I'm fine with the game's current state.

 

[XAL]

TF2 has too many fucking OP weapons that you get through drops. At least vanilla TF2 is playable for newcomers.

Unless they removed all of the stat/weapon effects from all cosmetics. I uninstalled that game years ago.