Support NeoGAF

[bananabread]

How else is the Pyro supposed to be useful? In a 6v6 or 8v8 5CP match (which is what the base game is supposed to be balanced around) he's used on Gullywash and Badlands last to shove Ubers around. He's never used outside of that context, and it's generally accepted that running a Pyro to stop their uber makes you completely useless at everything else.

Take away the airblast, and he's never used. Increase the cooldown so he can't keep up the the rocket launcher's firing speed, and he'll never be used. You could compensate it by increasing his flame damage enough that it's actually a threat in high-level play, but then the class would literally burn through low-level play because running at a dude while holding M1 doesn't require any mechanical execution. With airblast, there's an actual difference between a UGC Platinum Pyro and a UGC Iron Pyro. If you make him reliant on actual flamethrower difference, you just have a class like Heavy where there's almost no difference between a bad player and a good one.


Sandman was a different ballgame (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA). Scouts would run out of spawn and then lob a baseball across the map. If it hit the enemy's Medic or something, suddenly the other team is standing around for ten seconds while you guys get mid for free. I also think there's inherently a difference between an already extremely powerful class that's far better equipped to peak corners than anybody else being able to stun an uber from literally any range, and an extremely weak class being able to stun uber if you don't know he's coming and he's able to get right up to the combo.

Disclaimer: Pretty much everything I'm saying here is relating to pub because no one really cares about competitive TF2.

My feeling here is that they should have left the class as it was because it was doing it's job perfectly in the pub scene by acting (alongside heavy/engy) as a cool/fun class to play as an introduction to the game or if you were more of a casual gamer. People still had great fun playing the classes, but the stronger players would still transition into playing soldier/demo if they wanted to carry their team in a pub game. I knew one girl who played pretty much nothing but pub Pyro for 5 years between 2007-2012 because she had limited movement in one hand, and the class was perfect for her. Goofy but fun. When she became able to hold us in place by right clicking in our general direction, it stopped being fun for the rest of us.

The fact that a Scout/Soldier/Demo is always going to be more use than a Pyro/Heavy/Engy outside of occasional utility roles purely because of their basic design (and the types of maps played competitively) means that trying to balance them for competitive play is a mistake and you shouldn't even bother.

If more people played the class by using the shotgun and focusing on setting players alight and retreating without taking damage as opposed to approaching every fight as separate 1v1's that they feel they need to be able to win in order to have fun, you'd see the Pyro settle into the comfortable place it should be as a damaging utility class, rather than the frag monster everyone seems to want every class to be. You don't need to be able to stun people in order to be effective.

As for how I'd re-balance the class?

- Airblast back to old cooldown (retain lower ammo cost)
- Reflected projectiles no longer mini-crit
- Flaregun no longer crits burning targets
- Reserve shooter removed from Pyro loadout
- Keep current flamethrower damage/range
- Afterburn damage starts higher and ramps down over time, starting at 5-6/sec and slowing down to the current rate over the duration. More damage overall (65-75 instead of the current 50). This also helps the flaregun stay relevant without it doing silly levels of burst damage and making the Pyro a longrange kill threat.

Idea being that setting people on fire should be your main goal and that some flames + one or two decent shots with the shotgun should be enough to deal with light classes before they can get to a health pack, while also allowing the Pyro to ambush heavies by setting them on fire and then retreating.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Disclaimer: Pretty much everything I'm saying here is relating to pub because no one really cares about competitive TF2.

My feeling here is that they should have left the class as it was because it was doing it's job perfectly in the pub scene by acting (alongside heavy/engy) as a cool/fun class to play as an introduction to the game or if you were more of a casual gamer. People still had great fun playing the classes, but the stronger players would still transition into playing soldier/demo if they wanted to carry their team in a pub game. I knew one girl who played pretty much nothing but pub Pyro for 5 years between 2007-2012 because she had limited movement in one hand, and the class was perfect for her. Goofy but fun. When she became able to hold us in place by right clicking in our general direction, it stopped being fun for the rest of us.

It's fine if you don't care about competitive play, but some people actually do. The game should be balanced from the top-down, not around people who consider fighting a class with awful range and hilariously weak damage output to be a serious test of their skills.

The fact that a Scout/Soldier/Demo is always going to be more use than a Pyro/Heavy/Engy outside of occasional utility roles purely because of their basic design (and the types of maps played competitively) means that trying to balance them for competitive play is a mistake and you shouldn't even bother.


If more people played the class by using the shotgun and focusing on setting players alight and retreating without taking damage as opposed to approaching every fight as separate 1v1's that they feel they need to be able to win in order to have fun, you'd see the Pyro settle into the comfortable place it should be as a damaging utility class, rather than the frag monster everyone seems to want every class to be. You don't need to be able to stun people in order to be effective.

The Pyro is, currently, balanced around competitive play. He could maybe use a little buff, but the airblast provides utility in closed corridors that no other class can provide.

Pyro without airblast would not have a useful niche as a utility class. The Flamethrower does terrible damage (it actually has lower damage output than every stock primary except Syringe Gun), afterburn is completely useless, he's slow, and he has unexceptional health. Pyro would be run in 0% of Sixes matches, he'd be so useless in Highlander that they'd probably drop the requirement to run one, and even in pubs he wouldn't be able to accomplish anything except against the absolute worst teams. Setting people on fire is not a useful benefit in and of itself.

As for how I'd re-balance the class?

- Airblast back to old cooldown (retain lower ammo cost)
- Reflected projectiles no longer mini-crit
- Flaregun no longer crits burning targets
- Reserve shooter removed from Pyro loadout
- Keep current flamethrower damage/range
- Afterburn damage starts higher and ramps down over time, starting at 5-6/sec and slowing down to the current rate over the duration. More damage overall (65-75 instead of the current 50). This also helps the flaregun stay relevant without it doing silly levels of burst damage and making the Pyro a longrange kill threat.

Idea being that setting people on fire should be your main goal and that some flames + one or two decent shots with the shotgun should be enough to deal with light classes before they can get to a health pack, while also allowing the Pyro to ambush heavies by setting them on fire and then retreating.

I mean, if you want the Pyro to be an absolute shit-tier joke class like he was in TFC, sure. The only change you listed that I can get behind is removing the Reserve Shooter, but even then it's still far more problematic on Soldier than on Pyro.

 

[NinjaCatfish]

It's been a long time since I've cared about TF2. A game can only stay fun for me for so long, and TF2 has well and truly passed that for me.

The worst part probably is that it was a struggle last few times I tried to play, to find a server of people who actually want to play the flipping game. Half the servers active are idle/achievement servers, or instaspawn 2fort that just don't appeal to me at all.

Then there's the hardly original but absolutely true fact that the characters were designed to have easily identifiable silhouettes, and now that's completely gone.

 

[TransTrender]

It sucks that so many people have this misconception. There are sidegrades that I'd say are "required" to get on a level playing field (soldier's gunboats, pyro's degreaser, medic's kritzkrieg are the biggest of these), but thats pretty much it. You gain and lose different things by playing with all these other weapons, but it doesn't destroy the balance of the game (if you're not a new player, because yeah a demoknight is going to ruin any noob soldier's day). Stock weapons STILL win fights, you don't lose much by rolling with stock, besides flashy gimmicky builds (which can be fun and have their own place). Theres a reason people still run the stock rocket launcher, sticky launcher, minigun, wrench, sniper, knife, etc.

Meh.
The last few times I launched the game and joined a random pub server it felt like I was constantly getting clowned by the non standard loadouts and I didn't get enough fucks at that point to do the research. It felt shitty and it was shitty enough for all my 'core' TF2 friends to give it up.

 

[Gilby]

TF2 back in the day was my shit.

It's why I love Overwatch so much, it's very reminiscent of TF2 before each patch added a million new weapons, hopefully the same doesn't happen to Overwatch.

I doubt they'll add loadouts to Overwatch, pretty sure it's just gonna be characters (modern players are used to stuff like League and DOTA, perfectly comfortable with tons of characters...).