7DollarHagane
Banned
And these are the kinds of points that change minds. Good work. I actually really like that.
"I Hate Donald Trump, but he might get my vote" Washington Post(Opinion)
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And these are the kinds of points that change minds. Good work. I actually really like that.
We live in the the real world where we know what either candidate stands for. Ones a bigot, ones for inclusion. If you vote for the bigot to spite the other, you're a bigot.
You know, whenever I see a motherfucker going ham defending/excusing Trump and his supporters for the bigotry that radiates from his campaign, only to then go on and say "I'm actually voting for Hilary y'all, I don't actually support this bigotry", I tend not to trust them. Like, how the fuck so you rationalize those two actions?
And for the love of motherfucking God, can someone explain to me, in extreme motherfucking detail with facts and links and shit, how a Hilary presidency would be worse than a Trump presidency? Like what's the fucking thought process behind that?
Because I don't get it.
And for the love of motherfucking God, can someone explain to me, in extreme motherfucking detail with facts and links and shit, how a Hilary presidency would be worse than a Trump presidency? Like what's the fucking thought process behind that?
Because I don't get it.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Ok so first let me start with the bolded - single issues may/may not be big problems , however the scale really depends from person to person. To you, his bigotry is not a big deal, since, it probably doesn't affect you. But to those that are affected by it, its a huge problem.
Now for the rest of your statement, yes its true there is no perfect candidate - and to some extent picking requires you to take the good with the bad. However, I invite you to do a sanity check while you're in the process of prioritization because are the issues you're assigning an actual priority for you or the party you're voting for?
In this case, the trump campaign has been very clear about its main priorities - most of PR produced has been nothing more than attack propaganda and pandering to the far right....
Has Trump actually highlighted how he intends to bring in more jobs?
Has he highlighted how he intends a "better" system for healthcare compared to Obamacare?
Has he highlighted how he intends to improve the education system?
Has he highlighted how he intends to improve the quality of life for the middle class?
Has He highlighted how he intends to improve the issues facing the globe in terms of security?
So far his solution for lots of the issues above are "blame the immigrants"
So I ask you what exactly does Trump offer to you where it causes you to assign his bigotry as a low priority?
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Enabling racism through your vote is being racist. What else would it be? You're contributing to oppression. That's racism.
I guess it is possible to view racism as an issue, though I think that's a pretty weak lens. It's not like abortion or like gun control or like taxes...it's a pervasively broad thing that colors everything. I find it really hard to buy as credible someone who would say something like, "Where do you stand on racism?" the same way you'd say, "What will you do for education?"
Like...it's kind of a disqualifying premise.
This I think is just flatly incorrect. This is some caricature of racists. I agree, yeah, some people are cartoon racists. I think, generally speaking, most people are not even aware of what they're thinking.
Like...it's kind of a disqualifying premise.
This I think is just flatly incorrect. This is some caricature of racists. I agree, yeah, some people are cartoon racists. I think, generally speaking, most people are not even aware of what they're thinking.
Psychoward
Banned
Are you serious right now? If someone supported the Grand Wizard of the KKK becoming President (reminder Donald Trump has retweeted stuff from KKK members) but wasn't part of the KKK themselves and said they weren't a racist would you still consider them to be not racist just because they say they aren't?
Fuck
It's about understanding that things are more complicated than "us vs them", that neither side is a monolithic wall of ideas, that there are places where we can find common ground, that even those on the same "side" can disagree. That we can disagree without being disagreeable. That we can't just look at the % of people supporting a candidate and assume that that every one of those voters believes in every thing that candidate says. That politics is about compromise and forming coalitions, and that by it's nature means dealing with groups that you don't see eye to eye with on every issue. That it's possible to support getting a candidate into office while not wishing them to succeed at the things you disagree with.
That you think being racist takes more than even implicit support for racist people suggests a lack of comprehension regarding racism.
You say that like Trump actually has a platform. If you are just playing devil's advocate let me know so we can agree to disagree and move on.
It's easier to build straw men about nana Ruth's voting issues than be honest with themselves.
There are people with racist attitudes that aren't aware of it, absolutely. But I disagree that the absence of those attitudes forces one into a position where it's the most important issue to vote on.
It's not devil's advocate in the sense that I don't believe what I'm saying, but I don't want to see Trump become President. Those other issues aren't there for me, and I suspect that this is part of what makes it hard for liberals to understand it. I do know people who plan to vote for Trump, and only some of them are racists. As for the others, I may disagree with their reasons, but I do not believe it's rooted in any racism and that they are genuinely concerned about their other issues. But apparently they're racists because they're really worried about some other issue. I'm not saying they're right, in fact I disagree with them on those other issues. But I think it's harmful to just throw terms like racist around like that.
Psychoward
Banned
It's really not about anything more than us v them when the us is being shit on by the racist them. Sorry not sorry I don't have any sympathy or empathy for people who support a racist and sexist candidate and refuse to vote for the one who isn't. Trump supporters could have a mass heart attack and I wouldn't shed a tear, fuck em.
faceless007
Member
What part of Trump's campaign makes you think he will embody any of these principles if elected? The way he speaks about the political process is diametrically opposed to the approach you just described.
I just don't see how you could consider it an issue you vote on. We can't even use the same words we use when talking about other issues because they're just so incongruous here. I can't describe someone who "votes on racism."
Trump's white nationalism pervades his position on every issue. His white nationalism itself is not an issue.
Kinda off topic, but I don't understand how being polite and not being an asshole has become associated with being 'politically correct' and 'safe spaces' and shit. Why is it suddenly a character flaw for some people to not be a jerk? 'He just speaks his mind!' and the like in defense of people being ugly to each other is something that is beyond my understanding. Maybe I'm just weird? What's so wrong with being civil?
The crazy thing about closeted trump supporters is the "reasonable doubt" they ascribe to him, but believe vehemently that Hillary will be the downfall of everything.
It's highly disingenuous to frame anyone calling out Trump supports as creating an "us vs them" situation, when Trump's entire platform is "us vs them" to begin with.
Its some real "please tolerate our intolerance" territory.
Well the memes on Reddit say she's bad so that must mean she's worse than Trump y'see
I've literally seen nothing that would indicate that Hillary would be worse than Trump so I'm so confused why former Sanders supporters would ever consider voting for him. I'm not saying Hillary is necessarily a good choice either because what do I know? But for every one "Hillary does a shady thing" article there's about 20 tweets directly from Trump himself where he's openly racist or just displays outright idiocy. But maybe that's what people are into. Him "speaking his mind".
There are, as far as I am aware, three major approaches to this question:
1. Person who says that is a conservative. OK, logic checks out.
2. Hillary will be a corporatist president and Donald Trump will be a populist president. I don't really think this is true. For example, take the list of Supreme Court justices Trump put forth...it was basically written for him by the Heritage Foundation. He will be a pretty bog standard Republican who is also an explicit racist. I do not think the logic checks out.
3. Hillary is a liar and will not do anything she says she will do. Trump is a liar and will be doing the opposite of what he says. Therefore Hillary is actually a neoconservative and Trump is a secret liberal. I'm not sure on this one.
There are some other variants of 2...Trump will be an isolationist (lol) while Hillary is a hawk, etc. There's no real reason for this position, which is why Bernie Sanders says he will vote for Hillary.
Psychoward
Banned
Thank you
Dr. Feel Good
Banned
People rallied behind republicans for years who oppose gay marriage and equality with little remorse or regret as it was seen as the right thing to do given their party stance. They don't believe that mentality is hateful or being a big or but what is right. People will do the same against immigrants.
I don't think any of it does. That comment is not about how Trump is better, but how we should aspire to be better. Just because people on the right wallow in purity tests and labeling anyone who doesn't agree as a anti-american socialist doesn't mean we should do the same thing. Just be better.
Thanks for the responses, but thinking about it for a moment, this might explain it for me more than anything else:
because racism/bigotry is something I can't ignore. I don't give a shit if I agree with 95% of your platform, as a minority, bigot tendencies are an automatic disqualification. I guess Trump supporters/apologists don't see it as such.
And we can do better. I try to educate without being agressive, but often times it falls on deaf ears. We can continue to call out hateful behavior without being hateful ourselves. But many, many people do not have the patience for that, especially those that deal with it constantly. We can't control how people react. Just as we can't control how Trump is very much fostering this 'us vs them' mentality. People are going to be defensive when attacked, especially if it hits so close to home as it does with the people that are actually targets of this type of retoric.
In essense, try not to tell people how to feel. It can seem like you are trying to push your own type of purity test, where those that use more agressive tactics in dealing with things that are hateful are just as bad as those foster hate.
/My opinon, MMV, etc.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
I'll concede that there may be a theoretically possible match-up where a candidate with more racial bias than the other may be preferable. But that's not the scenario that we're talking about here, Trump would be an absolutely abysmal candidate even without the racism; Trump offers the worst of all worlds.
Vicetrailia
Banned
If they were on the recieving end they would not tolerate it either.
I'm curious. of those who peg all Trump supporters as racist, how many have spoke with for more than 5 minutes personally?
Here's an example of a Trump supporter I met (FAAAARRRRRR from typical I know, but help make add perspective)
Single mother of 3, black female, 28yo. In college, voted Bernie...Was straight up on the anyone but Hillary train, throwing parroted bullshit about Trump at me. Primary reason for supporting Trump...(Shocked the fuck out of me...) Gun laws. Hugely against the gun laws getting to strict. Has the idea Hillary is going to lock shit down. (she doesnt trust the government).
This person is not native to NH. Shes from a much more populated city on the east coast.
It didnt take much fact dropping for her to think again regarding Trump. But if I didnt personally have a good rapport with this person would she have eventually got the facts? I dont know, but thats beside the point.
To the fellow asking how one can support Bernie and Hillary and support the right of others to support Trump without pegging them all as racist. I can only speak for my self. I grew up and lived the majority of my life in brooklyn, ny. I've lived a few other places as well with new hampshire being the most recent. Maybe due to my age and meeting and talking with a wide area of people, along some personal areas of interest as it relates to psychology and behavior, etc.
I've come to a different understanding of the frames, filters and layers that are part of our human experience, than perhaps you or other posters have. In some ways, yes we are simple and predictable beings. But at the same time the motivations, rationalizations, etc that layer each persons psyche can be far more complex even if driven truly by something more basic or primal.
For most, it comes down to emotions. How they feel about a candidate. People not trusting Hillary for example, "feel" they cant trust her and try to get data to rationalize that feeling while filtering out everything else.
When folks say all trump supporters are racist, they have a feeling they to are trying to reinforce with supporting data, so they can strengthen they're own internal map.
Props to Korzybski for the quote, but "the map is not the territory." You guys are "mind reading" (even by CBT's definition) what you believe goes on in the mind of a Trump supporter.
Edit: Trumps whole campaign is built on "us vs them". Its just the us and them his supporters identify and resonate with varies.
Here's an example of a Trump supporter I met (FAAAARRRRRR from typical I know, but help make add perspective)
Single mother of 3, black female, 28yo. In college, voted Bernie...Was straight up on the anyone but Hillary train, throwing parroted bullshit about Trump at me. Primary reason for supporting Trump...(Shocked the fuck out of me...) Gun laws. Hugely against the gun laws getting to strict. Has the idea Hillary is going to lock shit down. (she doesnt trust the government).
This person is not native to NH. Shes from a much more populated city on the east coast.
It didnt take much fact dropping for her to think again regarding Trump. But if I didnt personally have a good rapport with this person would she have eventually got the facts? I dont know, but thats beside the point.
To the fellow asking how one can support Bernie and Hillary and support the right of others to support Trump without pegging them all as racist. I can only speak for my self. I grew up and lived the majority of my life in brooklyn, ny. I've lived a few other places as well with new hampshire being the most recent. Maybe due to my age and meeting and talking with a wide area of people, along some personal areas of interest as it relates to psychology and behavior, etc.
I've come to a different understanding of the frames, filters and layers that are part of our human experience, than perhaps you or other posters have. In some ways, yes we are simple and predictable beings. But at the same time the motivations, rationalizations, etc that layer each persons psyche can be far more complex even if driven truly by something more basic or primal.
For most, it comes down to emotions. How they feel about a candidate. People not trusting Hillary for example, "feel" they cant trust her and try to get data to rationalize that feeling while filtering out everything else.
When folks say all trump supporters are racist, they have a feeling they to are trying to reinforce with supporting data, so they can strengthen they're own internal map.
Props to Korzybski for the quote, but "the map is not the territory." You guys are "mind reading" (even by CBT's definition) what you believe goes on in the mind of a Trump supporter.
Edit: Trumps whole campaign is built on "us vs them". Its just the us and them his supporters identify and resonate with varies.
BlastProcessing
Member
I don't think #1 checks out. Trump's platform calls for a pretty massive increase in the size and powers of the Federal Government. Don't see how a true conservative would ever support that.
"True" conservatives don't exist in the republican party then. They're all for expanding the government in things they don't care for.
Fucking truth bombs
If they disagree and think that the best solution is ideological purity, we can agree to disagree. I think the reason that this has gone on so long is that they don't seem to get it and some would rather just accuse me of being some kind of secret racist or a Trump supporter. I don't think that I'm imposing a purity test, but that I'm trying to explain something to a bunch of people that don't get it or don't want to.
TestOfTide
Banned
Here's my experience with trump supporters:
1) Former employer. Became pro-trump as soon as he saw CNN treating his candidacy announcement as a joke. Last I talked with him he would basically deny all of trumps problems. Unsurprisingly he listens to talk radio, but in his mind his trump support is about trump having been hated by the establishment of both parties. He's shown blatant cognitive dissonances, but one issue that I saw some opening in was that he would stop supporting trump if he ever saw definitive proof of trump encouraging violence against protesters.
2) When trump became the presumptive nominee, my mom had a brief period where she said she would vote for trump because of how much she hates Hillary. Thing is she hated trump nearly as much so it wasn't hard to convince her to vote Johnson instead.
3) Friend of my family, I haven't actually talked to him since trump became the presumptive nominee, but he has always been the Limbaugh loving racist that would constantly claim MLK Jr. was a republican and would say that black people are voting democratic only because they are "voting for stuff". I know I can never convince him to not be a bigot, so instead I'm just waiting for trump to lose so that I can gloat in his face about how social conservatism is a dying breed in America.
4) Technically this other friend of my family said he was just going to write in himself, but I could tell based on the stuff he said that he hates Hillary but knows that Trump has done nothing to make himself appealing to sane people. He said he liked Trump's economic policy, but knew I was right (based on his lack of response) when I responded by pointing out that Trump hasn't been running on an economic platform.
Everyone else I know of is voting Hillary, including my conservative father who likes conservative economics, hates Hillary, has many issues with Obama, but is smart enough to despise Trump more than anyone else in politics and will hold his nose and vote Hillary because he doesn't want to do anything similar to when he voted Nader in 2000.
Honestly I think the biggest issue is that some people have to understand that the best argument you can make to Hillary haters is to convince them to simply vote for neither Trump or Hillary. A lot of people are unfortunately that biased against Hillary, but it shouldn't be too hard to convince them to at least not vote for Trump. That's what I did with my conservative mother.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
This. Your vote makes you responsible for actions that were stated up front, and in this case, we're talking racist actions. If Trump puts a star on every Muslims clothes (like he's advocated with his IDs), and you voted for him knowing he promised that, then you're complicit in that racist act. Racist acts define racists.
Slashlen, your friends who are voting Trump that you think "aren't racist" are very much racist. They don't care what happens to women, Muslims, Hispanic people, black people, etc... at all, and are actively supporting someone who would erode the basic safety of these groups.
And FYI, 99% of the population would answer "No" if asked "Are you racist?" Only outright Klansmen would say yes, but I assure you, there are more of them than that.
When other races get access to public anything (services, rights, etc..) there's an outcry to take them away. Political correctness is just another way to say "The minorities are exercising their free speech to yell at us! Waaaahhhhh!" Free speech to these people should only cover their own racist utterances; once people retort, they get mad (since it used to be that they could openly say that shit anytime they wanted).
We'd get some serious gun control in this country if minorities started open carrying. Just the sight would have old white people clutching their pearls in no time.
Coriolanus
Banned
If 50's anti-communism propaganda taught me anything, it is that communism can solve both of those problems at the same time.
Karsticles
Member
I think Trump is a racist, and I won't be voting for him because of that, but I also think this is unfair. I am sure plenty of racist individuals go to Trump rallies, but I doubt everyone is a racist.
"I mean sure he has pretty dehumanizing stances that promotes and empowers bigoted rhetoric, but I can look past that and vote for him."
Supporting a racist, or implying racist ideologies are forgivable enough to still win your vote, makes you a racist. It really is that simple.
And that is how a lot of people feel when it comes to people towing a party line that is championed by someone who says racist things. Hence the frustration and more agressive dialouge.
E-Cat
Member
lol! Hillary is a center-right corporatist.
Aaronology
Member
They're either ignorant of or willing to abide by racism in other people. I am not sure that is a much better look.
Psychoward
Banned
Yeah I'm sure there's a few protestors in there too, fair point.
Not according to real facts like her voting record. Saying this kind of stuff just lets people know you haven't the slightest clue about politics.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
I wish I had a link to that "Quantum Racism" post someone here made a while ago because it describes some of the reactions in this thread perfectly.
Aaronology
Member
I've responded to so many posts like that now my eyes just sort of glaze over when I read them. Absurd lists detailing her record and her actions throughout her career that demonstrably show she is one of the most liberal politicians on the national stage mean nothing.
People don't vote based on facts. They vote on emotion and gut feelings
What about Hillary is too liberal? What American values do you want her to protect?
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