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[AndyBNV]

A while back I asked about mini ITX mobos for Haswell and I've seen a few new ones start to appear on the site I keep track of. Are there any particularly good ones yet? Which chipset should I be looking into?

If you care about clock speeds, overclocking, etc, look at Ivy or Sandy Bridge instead.

And RE: VRAM, I seriously doubt anything will need 10GB of VRAM anytime soon (the only scenario I can think of that might even approach that is triple screen gaming at 4K res, with boatloads of MSAA).

 

[Mad Max]

I've been stress testing my 4770k with prime95 and AIDA64 and I am at a loss. I did 2 hours+ of AIDA64 at 4.5 ghz & 1.245v. Prime95 gives me a BSOD within 20 minutes. I upped the voltage to 1.275 at 4.5 and got a BSOD within 20 minutes again. I lowered the CPU Ratio to 4.4 and got it to go 30 minutes+ on prime95. I stopped the test because the CPU hit 100 °C on core 1 doing the 800000 test.

Do I trust AIDA64 or Prime95? I think I'm stable for gaming at 4.5 at 1.25v, and I think Prime95 and Haswell don't get along too well.

If it BSODs during either it's simply not stable. Besides AIDA64 is kind of a weak ass stresstest so I wouldn't use it if you're going to test for OC stability. If you hit 100°C during prime at 4.4GHz you should definitely lower the voltage and clock the CPU lower, its not worth it to damage your cpu just to gain a few 100Mhz at best.

 

[Horse Armour]

If it BSODs during either it's simply not stable. Besides AIDA64 is kind of a weak ass stresstest so I wouldn't use it if you're going to test for OC stability. If you hit 100°C during prime at 4.4GHz you should definitely lower the voltage and clock the CPU lower, its not worth it to damage your cpu just to gain a few 100Mhz at best.

Isn't it the most stressful stress test? Intel recommend it and I've seen it particularly suggested for Haswell CPUs on enthusiast sites as it pushes every single new instruction whilst other programs do not.

 

[Toski]

Isn't it the most stressful stress test? Intel recommend it and I've seen it particularly suggested for Haswell CPUs on enthusiast sites as it pushes every single new instruction whilst other programs do not.

Thats what I've heard. I did crash once during AIDA64 which made me up the voltage to 1.245. AIDA64 tests everything while Prime95 really tests AVX stability. My concern is if I run AIDA64, Intel Burn Test, LinX etc. and only Prime95 makes it crash, which do I trust, especially only for gaming?

 

[Mad Max]

Isn't it the most stressful stress test? Intel recommend it and I've seen it particularly suggested for Haswell CPUs on enthusiast sites as it pushes every single new instruction whilst other programs do not.

Well the variety of instructions is probably huge compared to prime95, which is quite limited. But in my experience with haswell there is like a 15°C temperature difference between the max T in prime95 and AIDA64. So if instability is caused by heat AIDA might not catch it, but prime definitely will.

@Toski

You should trust all of them probably. If the OC is stable non of those test should be able to crash it. But honestly I'd be more worried about those temps than about prime: 100°C is just too high

 

[something fishy]

what's the opinion of you guys on vram,?

I was looking at the 760 but we only have the 2 gig model here and it seems a bit low with the new consoles coming (I only have a 1080p monitor though).

I'm also looking at the 3 gig 7950 thinking it might be a safer option?

Any views on this? is it actually best to wait? I currently have a gtx 560.

 

[Durante]

Thats what I've heard. I did crash once during AIDA64 which made me up the voltage to 1.245. AIDA64 tests everything while Prime95 really tests AVX stability. My concern is if I run AIDA64, Intel Burn Test, LinX etc. and only Prime95 makes it crash, which do I trust, especially only for gaming?

If anything crashes (well, any program which can reasonably be assumed to be free of crash bugs!), your system is not stable.

what's the opinion of you guys on vram,?

I was looking at the 760 but we only have the 2 gig model here and it seems a bit low with the new consoles coming (I only have a 1080p monitor though).

I'm also looking at the 3 gig 7950 thinking it might be a safer option?

Any views on this? is it actually best to wait? I currently have a gtx 560.

I'd sit on the 560 for a bit and see if 4GB 760s are coming.

 

[Raide]

I think its time to upgrade my OS. Still using Vista 64, so I will probably just make the jump to Win 8.

Would this be my best option?

Also, no idea if I can grab this a bit cheaper elsewhere.

 

[Toski]

Well the variety of instructions is probably huge compared to prime95, which is quite limited. But in my experience with haswell there is like a 15°C temperature difference between the max T in prime95 and AIDA64. So if instability is caused by heat AIDA might not catch it, but prime definitely will.

@Toski

You should trust all of them probably. If the OC is stable non of those test should be able to crash it. But honestly I'd be more worried about those temps than about prime: 100°C is just too high

Due to fluctuating temps, I redid my thermal paste & heatsink. With my original heatsink installation, I was stable (for those 2 hours) at around 75° C (temps fluxed between the mid 60s and and high 80's/low 90s) for AIDA64. After I redid my heat sink & paste, I set my voltage & clock back to stock and tested Prime95 and got into the mid 70's for the 800000 tests. Should I really calibrate my overclock to Prime95? It doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

[something fishy]

If anything crashes (well, any program which can reasonably be assumed to be free of crash bugs!), your system is not stable.

I'd sit on the 560 for a bit and see if 4GB 760s are coming.

great, thanks. 7950 not so good then?

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

Troll? Are you seriously claiming that a 3GB GPU will play all games at high settings 5 years from now? 5 years after the 360/PS3 you needed 1GB VRAM compared to the 256mb in the consoles, a 4x increase. Assuming 4GB RAM is used as VRAM in these consoles, you'll need 12GB 5 years from now. Now, I don't expect assets to increase in size as much as the previous gen but you're certifiably insane if you expect a 3GB 7970 to play all games in the next few years with no compromised settings. I'm 99% sure there will be a game in 2014 that won't be able to be maxed out on a 3GB 7970, never mind 5 years from now.

In fact, all these 2/3GB GPUs are fine for the rest of the gen people remind me of the people telling people that dual cores will be OK for the next few years to people in 2009 when just a few years later we already have a lot of games that are unplayable on dual cores.

That's because the standards on PC went up over time. The consoles don't do 1080p and tesselation fot example. If a rig could manage console settings back in 2007 it can do so now. In fact, the GT540m in my laptop does just that.

 

[something fishy]

Very hard to see what sort of resolutions are going to be pushing vram up to those sorts of levels?

 

[kharma45]

If anything crashes (well, any program which can reasonably be assumed to be free of crash bugs!), your system is not stable.

I'd sit on the 560 for a bit and see if 4GB 760s are coming.

4GB ones are already available, whether they have enough grunt to make full use of it is debatable. Only time will tell.

great, thanks. 7950 not so good then?

7950 is a great card, it'll be fine.

 

[Mad Max]

Due to fluctuating temps, I redid my thermal paste & heatsink. With my original heatsink installation, I was stable (for those 2 hours) at around 75° C (temps fluxed between the mid 60s and and high 80's/low 90s) for AIDA64. After I redid my heat sink & paste, I set my voltage & clock back to stock and tested Prime95 and got into the mid 70's for the 800000 tests. Should I really calibrate my overclock to Prime95? It doesn't seem worth it to me.

That´s up to you really, if the temperatures don´t get too crazy your chip will survive. However keep in mind that your PC can still BSOD at any moment during gaming or any other type of application if it´s not 100% stable (although not as frequently as when running prime of course), but if you don´t really care you could just leave it as is.

 

[Durante]

great, thanks. 7950 not so good then?

It's great for the price, particularly if you want the game bundle. I'd be more comfortable upgrading to 4GB though.

4GB ones are already available, whether they have enough grunt to make full use of it is debatable. Only time will tell.

"Grunt to make use of it" is more an artifact of the current use of large amounts of GPU memory (improved IQ via resolution/AA) -- which also requires a lot of performance. Should the higher floor in memory capacity of next-gen consoles resutl in e.g. larger asset variety using up more GPU memory, even non-top-end cards will benefit from more memory.

 

[Osiris]

I've been stress testing my 4770k with prime95 and AIDA64 and I am at a loss. I did 2 hours+ of AIDA64 at 4.5 ghz & 1.245v. Prime95 gives me a BSOD within 20 minutes. I upped the voltage to 1.275 at 4.5 and got a BSOD within 20 minutes again. I lowered the CPU Ratio to 4.4 and got it to go 30 minutes+ on prime95. I stopped the test because the CPU hit 100 °C on core 1 doing the 800000 test.

Do I trust AIDA64 or Prime95? I think I'm stable for gaming at 4.5 at 1.25v, and I think Prime95 and Haswell don't get along too well.

How are you setting your Vcore? - Manually or via an Offset / Adaptive mode?

Just curious because of this little interesting and useful bit of info in one of the Asus engineers Haswell OC guides, which I've not seen mentioned before. (Esp. interesting as a lot of people have moved to OC'ing via Offsets with SB / IB)

As an example, a CPU is perfectly stable at 1.25V using a manual voltage (static), if Adaptive or Offset Mode is used instead, it is impossible to lock the core voltage when running software that contains AVX instruction sets – stress tests such as AIDA and Prime contain AVX instruction sets. When the AVX instructions are detected by the PCU, the core voltage will be ramped an additional ~0.1V over your target voltage – so 1.25V will become ~1.35V under AVX load. If you intend to run heavy load AVX software, we recommend using Manual Vcore, NOT Adaptive or Offset Mode.

Note: Whilst he says it's ramped an additional 0.1v over target Vcore for AVX use, the spec for Haswell have the ramp range as anywhere from 0.1v to 0.15v for AVX use, that means someone overclocking via adaptive or offset mode at a target of 1.275v could end up ramping up as high as 1.425v Vcore under Prime or AIDA, which would make for some crazy temps and well over the recommendations for Haswell Vcore.

Here's Asus's guide for what your target Vcore / cooling solutions should be based on their extensive Haswell overclocking tests:

* A very good air cooler is required for voltage levels above 1.15V.
* 1.20V-1.23V requires use of closed loop water coolers.
* At 1.24V-1.275V dual or triple radiator water cooling solutions are advised.

 

[something fishy]

4GB ones are already available, whether they have enough grunt to make full use of it is debatable. Only time will tell.



7950 is a great card, it'll be fine.

Thanks. It's the UK where they don't seem to be out yet. So i'm thinking a 3 gig 7950 is the way. Very close to ordering it now.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

I just built my computer and have been reading about issues with the nvidia 320.18 drivers . Is it safe to use these or the 320.49 beta ones?

edit: My graphics card is a GTX 770 4GB

I've been using the 320.49 drivers without issues on that card. There are still a couple of 320 glitches that weren't in the 314 drivers, but otherwise, no issues.

what's the opinion of you guys on vram,?

I was looking at the 760 but we only have the 2 gig model here and it seems a bit low with the new consoles coming (I only have a 1080p monitor though).

I'm also looking at the 3 gig 7950 thinking it might be a safer option?

Any views on this? is it actually best to wait? I currently have a gtx 560.

The 760 is the part that's a little low for next generation consoles. Just go 760 2GB, then plan to upgrade in a year or two once once we know more about what's required for next generation consoles. It would be worth it to go Maxwell for the 20nm shrink alone.

 

[something fishy]

ok thanks. Almost makes me wonder if I should stic with the 560 and save money, as it plays games now reasonably enough on a 1080p monitor?

 

[kharma45]

"Grunt to make use of it" is more an artifact of the current use of large amounts of GPU memory (improved IQ via resolution/AA) -- which also requires a lot of performance. Should the higher floor in memory capacity of next-gen consoles resutl in e.g. larger asset variety using up more GPU memory, even non-top-end cards will benefit from more memory.

I agree there is also that argument too, it is just going to be one of those things that it will take time to see how it pans out. If you're thinking of upgrading your GPU within 18 months or so though I don't see a 2GB card leaving you out to dry too much.

Thanks. It's the UK where they don't seem to be out yet. So i'm thinking a 3 gig 7950 is the way. Very close to ordering it now.

Aye we've nothing over here yet, I would expect it to be only a couple of weeks before they appears though. Amazon do a Sapphire 3GB 7950 for £208 but they're not part of the Never Settle bundle sadly. The 2GB KFA2 760 on Novatech for £200 as well. They'd be my two picks.

 

[Toski]

How are you setting your Vcore? - Manually or via an Offset / Adaptive mode?

Just curious because of this little interesting and useful bit of info in one of the Asus engineers Haswell OC guides, which I've not seen mentioned before. (Esp. interesting as a lot of people have moved to OC'ing via Offsets with SB / IB)

Interesting, I never saw that. I set it at manual Vcore, and left the offset setting at [AUTO] on my BIOS. While running AIDA64, I never saw the Vcore go above what I set it at in BIOS, but Prime doesn't have this feature, so I don't know what its doing. Looks like I'll have to play with the offset options to make sure they're not doing anything they're not supposed to. Thanks.

 

[kharma45]

Thanks. It's the UK where they don't seem to be out yet. So i'm thinking a 3 gig 7950 is the way. Very close to ordering it now.

sorry to requote you but have you used Flubit before?

 

[something fishy]

I agree there is also that argument too, it is just going to be one of those things that it will take time to see how it pans out. If you're thinking of upgrading your GPU within 18 months or so though I don't see a 2GB card leaving you out to dry too much.



Aye we've nothing over here yet, I would expect it to be only a couple of weeks before they appears though. Amazon do a Sapphire 3GB 7950 for £208 but they're not part of the Never Settle bundle sadly. The 2GB KFA2 760 on Novatech for £200 as well. They'd be my two picks.

Great thank you. That sapphire is a great price. hmm. Though I've had some problems with their reliability in the past and tended toward Gigabyte since due to better support.

 

[Osiris]

Interesting, I never saw that. I set it at manual Vcore, and left the offset setting at [AUTO] on my BIOS. While running AIDA64, I never saw the Vcore go above what I set it at in BIOS, but Prime doesn't have this feature, so I don't know what its doing. Looks like I'll have to play with the offset options to make sure they're not doing anything they're not supposed to. Thanks.

If you didnt see the Vcore ramp up at all in AIDA and saw it remain at your target manual Vcore then you're not using offset or adaptive. I'd say *look* at the settings, learn what they do / are recommended by OC'ers to be at for that motherboard, but not actually play with them.

You may just have a poorly performing chip, and if you have and you ramp things up too much you might end up doing more harm than good.

 

[something fishy]

sorry to requote you but have you used Flubit before?

I haven't , I don't recognise the name?

 

[Zaph]

A while back I asked about mini ITX mobos for Haswell and I've seen a few new ones start to appear on the site I keep track of. Are there any particularly good ones yet? Which chipset should I be looking into?

Not sure how much you're looking at spending, but I'm currently waiting for the ASUS Maximus VI Impact Mini-ITX, which looks to be one hell of a board.

Hopefully they'll announce a release date and price soon.

 

[Wubby]

Hey guys, monitor question again.

In the new PC 2013 part one thread I posted that I was going to go with a LG 21:9 monitor as I could only have a single monitor. Well I've measured my space and as long as I move my iCade somewhere else dual should be fine.

But now I can't choose and am thinking of going dual with different size/resolution and refresh rate monitors! What I'm thinking:

-Main monitor: QNIX QX2710 (27", IPS, can OC to ~120Hz)
-Secondary: ASUS VG248QE (24", TN, 144Hz, Lightboost)

I want the IPS because I think it would be better for general web browsing and movies plus some slower games. I'd go dual Korean except I can't plug a console into it and I need a monitor that I can plug a console into. I don't want to go dual TN cause I don't know if I'd like staring at that matte TN panel for web browsing/movies.

Am I going to run into any problems though running two very different monitors?

 

[yatesl]

So Gigabyte have an app called "EasyTune", and it had an auto-tune overclock button. I clicked it, and it pushed my i5 4670K @ 3.40GHz all the way up to 4.7GHz, but when I opened Speccy I saw the temp was 90c.

That's stupid, right? Surely Gigabyte wouldn't make an app that can melt your CPU? It must measure temps.

Also, on the Hardware Monitor of the bottom of EasyTune, the CPU keeps changing between 4400 and 4650 for example, but Speccy is still showing the temp at 33c (sometimes going to 40). Is that safe?

 

[something fishy]

Lucky I checked before I ordered. The cards are 30 cm. They'll never fit in my antec 900 case if I want drives in there too (look like they wouldn't anyway, just not enough space).

I'll have to stick with older cards from now on.

 

[Osiris]

The KFA2 GTX 760 is only 24cm in length, FWIW.

 

[something fishy]

ah cool thank you.

with the die shrinks next year, are we likely to see smaller cards again?

 

[Double D]

Been using my 770 with the 320.08 drivers that were on the disc that came with it. I was replaying Arkham City last night when the game crashed upon defeating Mr. Freeze. Google showed it was a known driver issue and some dudes said that 320.18 fixed it.

I updated to 320.18, and my monitor shut off (like it should), but never turned back on. Now I get no signal (DVI connection). It was pretty late, so I just went to bed. Hopefully rebooting the PC will help, so we'll see.

 

[Osiris]

ah cool thank you.

with the die shrinks next year, are we likely to see smaller cards again?

Die shrinks don't really lead to smaller PCB's, in fact even the PCB's themselves are not as big as the whole card in most modern GFX cards, it's the cooling solutions that are making the size necessary and I don't see those shrinking to be honest.

 

[something fishy]

ah ok. so it's get a bigger case (it's pretty huge as it is really) or stick with lower cards then.

 

[clav]

Been using my 770 with the 320.08 drivers that were on the disc that came with it. I was replaying Arkham City last night when the game crashed upon defeating Mr. Freeze. Google showed it was a known driver issue and some dudes said that 320.18 fixed it.

I updated to 320.18, and my monitor shut off (like it should), but never turned back on. Now I get no signal (DVI connection). It was pretty late, so I just went to bed. Hopefully rebooting the PC will help, so we'll see.

I laughed.

 

[LCGeek]

Hey guys, monitor question again.

In the new PC 2013 part one thread I posted that I was going to go with a LG 21:9 monitor as I could only have a single monitor. Well I've measured my space and as long as I move my iCade somewhere else dual should be fine.

But now I can't choose and am thinking of going dual with different size/resolution and refresh rate monitors! What I'm thinking:

-Main monitor: QNIX QX2710 (27", IPS, can OC to ~120Hz)
-Secondary: ASUS VG248QE (24", TN, 144Hz, Lightboost)

I want the IPS because I think it would be better for general web browsing and movies plus some slower games. I'd go dual Korean except I can't plug a console into it and I need a monitor that I can plug a console into. I don't want to go dual TN cause I don't know if I'd like staring at that matte TN panel for web browsing/movies.

Am I going to run into any problems though running two very different monitors?

Nope you shouldn't I was going to get Qnix but got the Asus you mentioned instead. I still run a 60hz 1080p screen next to it with no issues.

 

[scogoth]

If you care about clock speeds, overclocking, etc, look at Ivy or Sandy Bridge instead.

And RE: VRAM, I seriously doubt anything will need 10GB of VRAM anytime soon (the only scenario I can think of that might even approach that is triple screen gaming at 4K res, with boatloads of MSAA).

Challenge accepted. In 5 years I will get a 120hz 4k triple screen setup.

 

[theytookourjobz]

In SLI is it normal that one GPU would be about 10c hotter than the second under load?

 

[Wubby]

Nope you shouldn't I was going to get Qnix but got the Asus you mentioned instead. I still run a 60hz 1080p screen next to it with no issues.

Thanks for the answer! Since you have the Asus are you able to run it at 120Hz with Lightboost on and have no issues at all with the second monitor? Even while gaming?

 

[AndyBNV]

In SLI is it normal that one GPU would be about 10c hotter than the second under load?

Depending on the card design, yes, because one card will have its fan pressed against the backplate of the other card, so it won't be able to draw in as much air.

 

[something fishy]

we're going to need cases the size of house at this rate of growth.

 

[kennah]

we're going to need cases the size of house at this rate of growth.

Nah, stuff is getting smaller and better designed. You have teeny tiny cases that can take the biggest video cards. Just the older cases weren't expecting the tech to go this way so didn't have removable hard drive trays.

 

[Double D]

I laughed.

I immediately saw the irony when it happened.

 

[Smokey]

Depending on the card design, yes, because one card will have its fan pressed against the backplate of the other card, so it won't be able to draw in as much air.

If I want to run my triple 120hz monitor setup off of one titan would a displayport to dvi adapter work or does it need to be dual link dvi?

 

[AndyBNV]

If I want to run my triple 120hz monitor setup off of one titan would a displayport to dvi adapter work or does it need to be dual link dvi?

I'll have to ask about that to be sure.

 

[something fishy]

Nah, stuff is getting smaller and better designed. You have teeny tiny cases that can take the biggest video cards. Just the older cases weren't expecting the tech to go this way so didn't have removable hard drive trays.

very true, sadly mine isn't even that old, 09 and my sons 300 is still on sale.

what a shame.

hopefully some of the cards will be smaller so we can still upgrade.

Having said thatI think I probably can remove the bays in mine, have to have a look (antec 900).

 

[Mirk]

I got my PC build all done!

My build atm.

CPU: Intel i7 2600k@ 4.4ghz 65ºC Peek Temp.

Motherboard: ASRock P67 Extreme4

Ram: G.Skill Ripjaws DDR 2133 16GB

GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 780 3GB

PSU: Antec HCP-750 750W

Case: Antec Sonata Series SOLO II

HDD: SAMSUNG 840 Pro Series 256GB & 2TB Western Digital

Monitor: BenQ XL2420T 120hz

I'll I have been able to do is a bit of testing, but so far so good!

 

[kharma45]

Great thank you. That sapphire is a great price. hmm. Though I've had some problems with their reliability in the past and tended toward Gigabyte since due to better support.

I haven't , I don't recognise the name?

Flubit is a service where you input the URL of the item you wish to buy, and they negotiate a better price from the supplier. That KFA2 760 I saw them offer it to someone on HUKD for £184.

http://www.flubit.com/

So create an account, stick the URL in and see what offer they come back with. KFA2 have a good RMA service too as I said so don't worry on that front

So Gigabyte have an app called "EasyTune", and it had an auto-tune overclock button. I clicked it, and it pushed my i5 4670K @ 3.40GHz all the way up to 4.7GHz, but when I opened Speccy I saw the temp was 90c.

That's stupid, right? Surely Gigabyte wouldn't make an app that can melt your CPU? It must measure temps.

Also, on the Hardware Monitor of the bottom of EasyTune, the CPU keeps changing between 4400 and 4650 for example, but Speccy is still showing the temp at 33c (sometimes going to 40). Is that safe?

It is stupid, most likely because it's firing too much voltage through and Haswell is hot enough as it is. The drop in clock speed is likely due to thermal throttling. Don't use that utility, manually do it and you'll get a better result with regards to heat and voltage. Might not go as high but it'll be more realistic. With Haswell you're looking really to get to 4.2GHz before the heat gets too much on the CPU. Running a program like IBT or Prime you want to be below 80 degrees.

 

[diamount]

Yup.

Nope.

It's a limitation with the heat spreader and the TIM they put between that and the actual chip.

Radiators with fans dissipate X amount of heat (in watts). Once you have surpassed the total heat (in watts), there is no further benefit.

You'd get the same result with a 4770K on an H60 as you would in your suggested system.

Considering you are thinking about going three-way 780s, you should probably look into SB-E/X79, or just accept that you will need to delid your Haswell processor. (even then, they are still heat limited due to a reason that has not yet been determined)

*edit*

Also take a look at this: http://www.caselabs-store.com/magnum-smh10/

As well as this: http://www.ldcooling.com/shop/big-tower-atx-hptx-reverse/39-ld-pc-v8-reverse-atx-hptx-black-red.html

So it's basically quietness over performance?

 

[j0hnny_385]

Don't know if posted yet, but here's an in-depth review of various Z87 boards for all you Haswell builders:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6989/...h-haswell-gigabyte-msi-asrock-and-asus-at-200

Spoiler

I own a Z87-Pro and I fully recommend it