FelixOrion
Poet Centuriate
iirc, NK and the US have had sporadic talks of repatriating it peacefully, but obviously they don't go anywhere.
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I took a trip to North Korea. (Pic heavy)
- Thread starter SuperBanana
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iirc, NK and the US have had sporadic talks of repatriating it peacefully, but obviously they don't go anywhere.
Big Baybee
Member
Maybe don't leave out the rest of his post?
Nobody can read this and not detect the sarcasm.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Looks like sarcasm to me.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
The point of SpaceWolf's post was the North Korea has labor and death camps, with horrible human rights abuses which the OP seems to be under the impression that they do not exist or at least is downplaying
Fenderputty
Banned
The only argument to be made, one I haven't seen the OP make yet (maybe I just missed it), is that it helps bring in news from the outside to the NK people. They see the cell phones, clothes and other amenities they don't get to enjoy and spread the word. I think there is some merit to this argument, but for me, it wouldn't outweigh the fact that I just directly gave the NK government my money.
Ok show me where he says that (seriously).
The small "middle class" in Pyongyang is using (north korean) smartphones. And that's from documentaries including non-controlled footage as well.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
OP did you know that there may be rape in those camps?
Unlike, say, America, where Prison is almost like a vacation.
That's weird. A majority of political experts believe that food security in NK is adequate, yet stagnate. And there's dozens of political journals that don't show people starving in the streets. Even more from pedestrian tourists that don't show anything like this.
But I guess politicians and people who've actually been there don't actually know the truth.
And what food NK does need it has difficult importing because of international blockades that often specifically target foodstuffs for sanctioning. NK is pretty terrible on it's own without the UN committing a violation of human rights by literally attempting to starve them further.
When the Red Cross inspected Theresienstadt, they walked away concluding that no war crimes were going on at these camps, and that life in them wasn't so bad, because they trotted out the healthiest prisoners and put on a truman show-like performance, while hiding the suffering and dying.
Which is exactly what the trip to Pyongyang is like.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
I will like to chime in and say any improvement in the North Koreans well being in the countryside is due to the fact the influence of the national government has weakened dramtically in the countryside and that was because of mass starvation in the countryside after their food supply system failed in the 90s which had in previous decades fed its populations reasonable well (Actually better than SK at that time though that wasnt too hard to do) but that North Korea is an entirely different beast than the one we know now. Once the food supply system failed mass starvation occured during the 90s which pushed the North Korean government further inwards to it capital which does have the benefits that the countryside is less regulated than the cities and allows them greater freedoms from the oppresive regime.
The majority of North Koreans don't get to see any of that stuff so it's pointless to begin with. The people that do see them were probably place there by the government in the first place to look nice and happy for the tourists.
The analogy might work if you compared it to North Korea as a whole, but not Pyongyang, which is where the "privileged" live.
People in North Korea, particularly those near the DMZ, already get hints about how backwards their world is. South Korea will use intercom systems to blast information into North Korea. The information they blast isn't just "Your government is lying to you!" type stuff, they'll broadcast, for example, upcoming weather forecasts - the type of forecasts North Korea actually doesn't have the technology to produce themselves. When your enemy can demonstrate knowledge like this, it fucks with the minds of north Koreans.
The people OP got to interact with are already elite. They are not the type to waiver.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
The fact that he thinks the comparison is not apt just because he didn't see the camps himself.
And, again, in this "privileged" area, people still starve to death on the streets. Pyongyang is still incredibly fucked up, he only saw the clean part of Pyongyang. What he saw is not the typical life in Pyongyang.
The "middle class" in Pyongyang doesn't have electricity for most of the day.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
Eastern Europe was flooded with bootleg VHS tapes of the show Dallas and many older generation Eastern Europeans will tell you that their exposure to the West helped the most.
The Cold War, political agitation, and war mongering did not.
But some people will never learn, just like in the NK thread the other day where everyone was wanting to humanely bomb them.
The answer to NK killing people isn't for us to come in and kill them ourselves. The answer to NK's crumbling infrastructure isn't for us to come in and bomb it all down to dirt.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
One thing about the money argument, I can't imagine it's a profitable venture for them. The amount they make from the tiny anount of tourism they see isn't going to make up for the resources spent, going by the pictures. It's probably more about propaganda rather than making money.
Fenderputty
Banned
It's now pretentious to point out that directly supporting the NK government is a disgusting thing? What?
So you're saying there's no moral argument to be made when visiting NK. Cool.
I don't understand why it needs to be profitable for it to be a terrible thing to do. The government clearly feels the propaganda tours are worth the money spent and whoever goes on these tours is directly giving the government money.
Jack Scofield
Member
Hi, OP. I can understand the fascination with North Korea, I really do. But I would never visit, especially since I'd be directly supporting a regime with sickening human rights abuses. I don't think you're a bad guy, but I don't think you should be drinking their Kool-Aid so readily.
My information comes first hand from North Korean refugees in Nothing to Envy.
The fact that OP didn't see poverty during his tour, despite half the country (about 12 million) being in "extreme poverty" is gross that his take away is... "NK isn't as poor as I thought because I saw happy kids".
I understand why mods don't want us shitting on OP for merely going there, but this defense of DPRK is something else.
I understand why mods don't want us shitting on OP for merely going there, but this defense of DPRK is something else.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
I never go to NK. I'd be too scared, being an American and all.
How is this so hard to understand. A user literally said "Pyongyang = Auschwitz". In reply to that he posted pictures of boys in Pyongyang and of starved boys from Auschwitz. One is a city of 4 million where the "privileged" north koreans live, the other a concentration camp of mass murder. How does that do anything to relativize NKs concentration camps? He NEVER said they don't exist, they are not as bad or anything like that at all.
You: One arguement to be made is that by seeing foreigners they see stuff like smartphones etc they usually never see.
Me: middle-class in Pyongyang does actually have smartphones so it's not new to them technically
You: So there's nothing wrong morally with visiting NK??????
HOW do you seriously make this connection?
Honestly, I've had enough. So much piling on and twisting shit. I'm out.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
This would be going better if you weren't so dazzled by the fake tour.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
Every country commits human rights abuses. The things that North Korea does to it's people? Apple/Samsung/etc does to the North African miners. Apple/Samsung/etc do the laborers to assemble the products you use.
Nothing to Envy: Ordinary Lives in North Korea 1st Edition
and this guy mentions it as well: http://nextshark.com/michal-huniewicz-north-korea-trip
SuperBanana
Banned
Because he's comparing a CITY which is the most well off city in the country to the worst concentration camp in WW2. How are these even comparable? He's saying having a meal with a friendly NK guide is the same as eating meals next to starving jews while SS officers dine with me and taking photos of a monument is the same as a photo of a gas chamber after it was used.
"The trip was ok"
"NAZI!!!!"
No, it would have gone the same. Glad I have you, the expert in North Korea, to tell me how my tour went though.
perfectchaos007
Member
Guys they actually do have freedom of religion. there's even a catholic church in the middle of pyongyang! I saw it on some netflix documentary
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
There's nothing in either of these links about starvation in Pyongyang.
Pyongyang's population is 2.5 million.
Dreams-Visions
Member
infinitys_7th
Member
The OP literally was in a Truman show-esque world - completely manufactured and produced. He says it wasn't, but it was. The guides are chosen and probably bugged (and the female guide was probably an intentional "dissenter" to soften the appearance of the regime - an attractive, intelligent, somewhat worldly woman who does not believe in the regime got a relatively cushy job in a corrupt environment? BS).
He probably ate more food in one day while there than the average North Korean outside the show areas eats in a week.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
There's no mention of Pyongyang specifically in this link, nor is there any mention of the word "starvation", yet when you look specifically for "food" it details the farming process for Pyongyang people.
There are entire chapters about it in Nothing to Envy.
You seem to be ignoring that book.
you can't hand wave away the concentration camps
Neoleo2143
Member
Frankly, OP, you visited the best of that country. The Absolute best. And it's a cliff drop into the Mariana Trench 1 mm outside that best. You did not see the Average, mean or median of standard of living there. This is Fact.
The Issue with North Korea is Culture. The people there practically educate their humanity away. Though, many cling to the basic instincts that cannot be taken. And you are not going to fix that in a generation or even 3 generations even if the entire Governing Structure of NK were obliterated overnight (Though that would be a Start, and I totally understand how much a piece of Shit that makes me sound, but these people have forgone humanity in my eyes and instead chosen to become the embodiment of Fear and oppression)
The Issue with North Korea is Culture. The people there practically educate their humanity away. Though, many cling to the basic instincts that cannot be taken. And you are not going to fix that in a generation or even 3 generations even if the entire Governing Structure of NK were obliterated overnight (Though that would be a Start, and I totally understand how much a piece of Shit that makes me sound, but these people have forgone humanity in my eyes and instead chosen to become the embodiment of Fear and oppression)
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
These are people who can barely keep their military weapons clean and useable, can barely farm to feed themselves, yet are experts at setting up alternate reality and flawless representations of a fake, second, North Korea to deceive foreigners?
Nah, sorry. I don't believe it.
People starve to death and lack electricity in plenty of third-world places. The point of comparison between Pyongyang and Auschwitz however is specifically to invoke the idea that Pyongyang is set up specifically for the systematic torture, abuse, medical experimentation, and execution of people with targeted ethnic heritages with only the barest amenities for the prisoners. Unless there's some secret doors to the shops OP visited that lead on down to some gas chambers and rock fields, the comparison is still a stretch. And admitting that the comparison is a stretch isn't inherently a defense of North Korea.
If Pyongyang itself is indeed a concentration camp, I would like to read more about this because it would be something new to me. Otherwise, it just seems like a shitty totalitarian capital city instead surrounded by places that are more in line with what Auschwitz actually was.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Give some citation yourself on this one.
SuperBanana
Banned
The link details the lack of electricity
and the book has entire chapters on starvation in Pyongyang. Again, you seem to be very conveniently ignoring it when it's been put in your face several times already.
Fenderputty
Banned
I specifically said "the ONLY argument to be made" and you posted stuff refuting the argument. What other connection am I supposed to make?
Sure I get that but the camps aren't in Pyongyang itself, just like the gulags were in the rest of the soviet union, with East Berlin being one of the most visible areas of the USSR which was heavy on the censorship/propaganda/monuments to their Dear Leader.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Please see post 407, my original reply to you where I explained the comparison : http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=216699430
I'll also add, that the OP completely ignores the whole labor camps/death camps with his North Korea ain't as bad as I thought post as well as dismissing a foreigner getting sentenced to 15 years in a labor camp for stealing a poster.
His own words: "Overall, it's a weird country. It's poor but not as poor as I thought. There aren't people eating tree roots or fully emancipated."
"Even the country towns we went past are clearly poorer than the cities but they seem like many other Asian countries such as Vietnam or even parts of rural China."
meltingparappa
Member
I mean, not to downplay the severity of your first statement or compare the treatment of HK incarceration, but your latter statement definitely has some hard numbers that you may not want to marginalize.
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