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[cartographer]

Seems weird that the subject has changed to the US.

Also as intended. See, NK isn't as bad in this way, but what about this western country? Or South Korea?

 

[213372bu]

You guys NK has a great foreign policy!

They whine and yell like 2 y/os, try to intimidate other countries with unauthorized missile tests, and threaten to nuke/go to war with other countries, but they can't because of their incompetency!

That's nice, safe, and kinda cute!

 

[stan423321]

edit: people berating the OP for this? Get a grip. No one's denying that the North Korean regime is awful and a blight upon human rights, but it is what it is and it's still a fascinating vertical slice of 20th century communism, one of the most bizarre nations in the modern world and whose morbid curiosity wouldn't be engaged by such a thing?

I still don't know what exactly were game reviewers talking about when discussing negative aspects of vertical slice previews, but you just nudged me into direction of assuming they were correct.

 

[MrCunningham]

Seems a little weird to put "gymnastics" in English on their shirts. Also why does the first kid have new balance shoes on. Interesting to think what the motivations were in staging this.

I really have to wonder what the arrangements are for people who live in these areas? Do these people and their children get fed, clothed and taken care of by the government in exchange for being paraded around in front of tourists? If they act out of line, do they get 'demoted' to working in an underground slave camp or something like it?

 

[Colin.]

Directly funding a brutal dictatorship, guilty of countless violations of human rights. Having everything you see and hear being cherry picked, and choreographed to hide the ugly truth in the hopes that idiots come away going "it's not that bad guys, really, I seen it for myself!" in a feat of sheer ignorance. Looks like they got another one here.

 

[Condom]

Excuse me?

Either you can't type or a sentence or your equating the rapes committed and hand-waved by the NK military/government as "people are people".

Not sure what ",own citizens or not" is supposed to mean.

No my point was that oppressing your own people or those of other nations doesn't make a difference to me. Both just as shitty and condemnable.

Following that logic it seems hypocritical to me to condemn someone for going to NK but at the same time not do it for other oppressive states.
As for me personally I don't think much of it and won't fabricate outrage over people travelling anywhere unless they approve of the oppression.

 

[Krejlooc]

I really have to wonder what the arrangements are for people who live in these areas? Do these people and their children get fed, clothed and taken care of by the government in exchange for being paraded around in front of tourists? If they act out of line, do they get 'demoted' to working in an underground slave camp or something like it?

Those areas get the most food, but there is still a caste system in place.

 

[Eternal Gamer]

dropping bombs full of infected and diseased ants and spiders

This really sounds like a stuff from nightmares.

 

[stufte]

No my point was that oppressing your own people or those of other nations doesn't make a difference to me. Both just as shitty and condemnable.

Following that logic it seems hypocritical to me to condemn someone for going to NK but at the same time not do it for other oppressive states.
As for me personally I don't think much of it and won't fabricate outrage over people travelling anywhere unless they approve of the oppression.

Wait, the US is deliberately and intentionally killing/oppressing civilians of other nations?

 

[Condom]

Wait, the US is deliberately and intentionally killing/oppressing civilians?

That is news to you?

😂😂😂😂😂

I'm out and suggest you take some time to read up on US history.

 

[Shamrock7r]

I thought I'd just make a note on the arguments in support of doing this trip and why they're a problem.

The first is that it's "informative" or an interesting experience. This seems benign but taken by itself seems like an accomplishment for the regime. The counterargument that it's not very informative seems a lot more compelling. Everyone seems to agree that it's a controlled experience, and hints of spontaneity aren't a serious refutation of that. What you're allowed to see isn't a representative depiction of the country if that is the goal.

The second is sort of a middle ground where we acknowledge yes NK might be horrible but the tourism might help normalize the relationship or humanize the people of NK or something. But people rightly point out that foreigners don't generally hate the people of NK, and I think you then have the same problem that comes with viewing a controlled experience. I'd be skeptical that your warm foreign charm is particularly useful in a controlled environment. The problem is that these people have no agency in their own society. That a foreigner gets to interact with them in this environment isn't necessarily useful to their lot in life, and seems like a rationalization on the part of the visitor that the interaction was useful.

The third is that visiting doesn't mean anything morally because everyone abuses human rights. While this is sort of true the observation by itself isn't particularly useful. For one it essentially handwaves all moral considerations out the window. If you're going to go further and argue about the quality of the abuse between different countries, there are serious differences, one important one being that if a person tours the US for example you can walk freely and generally not worry the totalitarian regime might object. I can choose to look for or ignore human rights abuses as I see fit.

A nice write up and I hope the OP and his supporters don't ignore it

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I never said that both were related, it's just that you can decide to judge a country by one or the other criteria.

Oh, we can judge North Korea. They do not occupy some behavioral grey area. They are a cancer who's spread the rest of the world is trying to contain.

And i don't see any difference between a government killing one own citizens or killing citizens from others countries.

lol. this thread is bringing em out I see.

I thought I'd just make a note on the arguments in support of doing this trip and why they're a problem.

The first is that it's "informative" or an interesting experience. This seems benign but taken by itself seems like an accomplishment for the regime. The counterargument that it's not very informative seems a lot more compelling. Everyone seems to agree that it's a controlled experience, and hints of spontaneity aren't a serious refutation of that. What you're allowed to see isn't a representative depiction of the country if that is the goal.

The second is sort of a middle ground where we acknowledge yes NK might be horrible but the tourism might help normalize the relationship or humanize the people of NK or something. But people rightly point out that foreigners don't generally hate the people of NK, and I think you then have the same problem that comes with viewing a controlled experience. I'd be skeptical that your warm foreign charm is particularly useful in a controlled environment. The problem is that these people have no agency in their own society. That a foreigner gets to interact with them in this environment isn't necessarily useful to their lot in life, and seems like a rationalization on the part of the visitor that the interaction was useful.

The third is that visiting doesn't mean anything morally because everyone abuses human rights. While this is sort of true the observation by itself isn't particularly useful. For one it essentially handwaves all moral considerations out the window. If you're going to go further and argue about the quality of the abuse between different countries, there are serious differences, one important one being that if a person tours the US for example you can walk freely and generally not worry the totalitarian regime might object. I can choose to look for or ignore human rights abuses as I see fit.

very much this. all of this.

 

[Eppy Thatcher]

The thing that gets me here is that - far from worrying about funding NK or anything of that sort - you're saying that traveling and specifically traveling to North Korea was to expand your thoughts on the country? To learn a little something and experience something new? I imagine that's why a lot of us travel the world. Why we find the off beaten path and go somewhere exotic and drink in a culture and people that are entirely unique and special when held against our day to day expectations which is awesome and totally a legit reason to travel.

But this trip of yours was none of that and I think that's maybe where some of the more aggressive responses to your OP are coming from. You can't go on a guided, manufactured, elaborate hoax of a tour and then say you really learned anything. you could apply this to literally anywhere in the world. Why go to Tokyo and then sign up for a walking tour of a few anime shops? Why go to Australia and visit the hotel and the beach and then say you gained some understanding of what it's like for aboriginal peoples in the bush? Why visit the states and see just NY and then claim to know the troubles of people in Detroit or Southern Cali or wherever?

You're coming across as saying you learned a thing and gained a perspective. We are trying to impart unto you that this perspective is a carefully manufactured thing and if you're interested in being a worldly person and a traveler than the last thing you should want is to be hand held through a sideshow. Which is what you saw. A sideshow.

It's a comfortable distraction from the utter shite their govt. is pulling all around that country - and to some extent... you're shrugging at that fact. Some of us have a hard time swallowing that.

 

[Mega]

I don't mind people disagreeing but the smart arse attitude and rudeness isn't necessary. Saying I'm bizarre, disgusting, comparing me to nazi's, ect. Can you not accept a different opinion or view point? No you're right. Even though I was the one who went there and saw it and discussed it with people from all over the world and all aspects of life to get an understand I'm obviously a moron, you're 100% right. Good talk.

Is it that hard for you to accept you were tricked by older, more experienced people who have been doing this for years? You're not the first tourist to be fooled while traveling overseas.

 

[stufte]

That is news to you?

😂😂😂😂😂

I'm out and suggest you take some time to read up on US history.

Coming from the guy who thinks that the US is worse than NK, I think I'll stick with the education I have currently, thanks.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

Your intelligence shines in your posts Condom.

Especially comparing the USA's political history/climate with the current climate in NK.

Truly a visionary among us.

Did you expect anything else from Condom? Literally par for the course around here.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

A nice write up and I hope the OP and his supporters don't ignore it

of course they will ignore it. they just wanna see the world and believe themselves to be special flowers. if just enough special flowers go, relations will normalize and the people will magically free themselves from their brain-washing, murderous regime. with sticks and stones and half-empty stomachs, no doubt.

The thing that gets me here is that - far from worrying about funding NK or anything of that sort - you're saying that traveling and specifically traveling to North Korea was to expand your thoughts on the country? To learn a little something and experience something new? I imagine that's why a lot of us travel the world. Why we find the off beaten path and go somewhere exotic and drink in a culture and people that are entirely unique and special when held against our day to day expectations which is awesome and totally a legit reason to travel.

But this trip of yours was none of that and I think that's maybe where some of the more aggressive responses to your OP are coming from. You can't go on a guided, manufactured, elaborate hoax of a tour and then say you really learned anything. you could apply this to literally anywhere in the world. Why go to Tokyo and then sign up for a walking tour of a few anime shops? Why go to Australia and visit the hotel and the beach and then say you gained some understanding of what it's like for aboriginal peoples in the bush? Why visit the states and see just NY and then claim to know the troubles of people in Detroit or Southern Cali or wherever?

You're coming across as saying you learned a thing and gained a perspective. We are trying to impart unto you that this perspective is a carefully manufactured thing and if you're interested in being a worldly person and a traveler than the last thing you should want is to be hand held through a sideshow. Which is what you saw. A sideshow.

It's a comfortable distraction from the utter shite their govt. is pulling all around that country - and to some extent... you're shrugging at that fact. Some of us have a hard time swallowing that.

well stated.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Which is why I said some---I see there are plenty of you not being complete dicks. I can't say anything positive for those who immediately jumped down his throat and were shitty right off the bat. The discussion was smashed to shit before it even got started.

Maybe, but honestly, can you blame them, when you consider the OP's hopeless gullibility?

This is the same guy who said, "I discovered those who say they "illegally" took photos on their trip or had to "sneak out" pictures are full of shit.", and then in the same post a bit later he acknowledges that there are instances where he's not allowed to take pictures...! Like, come on.

 

[scotcheggz]

I really have to wonder what the arrangements are for people who live in these areas? Do these people and their children get fed, clothed and taken care of by the government in exchange for being paraded around in front of tourists? If they act out of line, do they get 'demoted' to working in an underground slave camp or something like it?

Overly simplified, but yes, more or less. The people the tour groups are seeing are families considered as "good" and generally have family working in the government somewhere. They'll live in an apartment and get rations of food (that fluctuates, depending on A. The 'military first' propaganda of the time and B. The availability) and occasionally gifted a TV set or something. They'll be paid a sum in USD so they can shop on the black markets where they can buy other food and clothing, the New Balance shoes remarked about are one of the items that would have been bought in USD on these black markets (which are really grey, used to be highly illegal but after becoming a necessity, have become accepted and even beneficial to the regime). They'll also be able to buy south Korean DVDs and other such things which most people think doesn't happen because it doesn't fit the 'hermit Kingdom' narrative. If they fall out of favour however, even just one member of the family, then the whole lot of them will be carted away to forced labour camps. Falling out of favour might be something extreme like defecting to the south or something much much more trivial, like having a second cousin who failed to bribe a checkpoint guard sometime at some point in the past. That's a vague example but hey, that's all part of why the majority tow the line, isn't it?

As I said, it's an oversimplification, but yeah that's basically it exactly.

 

[Mega]

Overly simplified, but yes, more or less. The people the tour groups are seeing are families considered as "good" and generally have family working in the government somewhere. They'll live in an apartment and get rations of food (that fluctuates, depending on A. The 'military first' propaganda of the time and B. The availability) and occasionally gifted a TV set or something. They'll be paid a sum in USD so they can shop on the black markets where they can buy other food and clothing, the New Balance shoes remarked about are one of the items that would have been bought in USD on these black markets (which are really grey, used to be highly illegal but after becoming a necessity, have become accepted and even beneficial to the regime). They'll also be able to buy south Korean DVDs and other such things which most people think doesn't happen because it doesn't fit the 'hermit Kingdom' narrative. If they fall out of favour however, even just one member of the family, then the whole lot of them will be carted away to forced labour camps. Falling out of favour might be something extreme like defecting to the south or something much much less trivial, like having a second cousin who failed to bribe a checkpoint guard sometime at some point in the past. That's a vague example but hey, that's all part of why the majority tow the line, isn't it?

As I said, it's an oversimplification, but yeah that's basically it exactly.

I hope OP reads this as he was very keen to re-post that propaganda photo op of the smiling children as proof that it's "not so bad."

 

[riotous]

I discovered those who say they "illegally" took photos on their trip or had to "sneak out" pictures are full of shit.

I'm confused; you said this.. and then repeatedly talked about what you weren't allowed to take pictures of.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

This is the angriest I've been since they removed "gullible" from the dictionary.

They removed gullible from the dictionary!?

 

[Chittagong]

I really have to wonder what the arrangements are for people who live in these areas? Do these people and their children get fed, clothed and taken care of by the government in exchange for being paraded around in front of tourists? If they act out of line, do they get 'demoted' to working in an underground slave camp or something like it?

There are 'western goods shops' for the right people ie friends of the party. I got to visit one, while I was there ladies looking straight out of Sanlitun rolled on their SUV, wearing fur hooded white puff jackets.

See, that you don't know without going.

 

[Wvrs]

I still don't know what exactly were game reviewers talking about when discussing negative aspects of vertical slice previews, but you just nudged me into direction of assuming they were correct.

I really can't say I view the world from the perspective of video games, so I can't relate to your zany quip. I meant it in the most traditional sense of the term; it's a small 21st century sliver from a bygone whole, throwing light on the tragedies and insanities of 20th century authoritarian 'communism'. Personally I think to argue against states such as North Korea from an Americo-centric angle is inherently going to be an angle riddled with the storied biases of McCarthyism and other irrational fears of the 'reds' that were rife throughout the latter half of the last century; that the US only this year removed its trading and political relations sanctions on Cuba is insane to me. NK is a sad story of a despotic state still trapped in the Stalinist bubble within which it was conceived -- but alienating the nation, piling sanction upon sanction on it, and espousing much of the kind of vitriol I've seen in this thread is no way to reach a solution. One of the most oppressive elements of the regime is the isolation it has thrown its country into, and the rest of the world is doing very little to combat it. No nation has ever been bullied into modernism -- the Soviet Union collapsed because its constituent parts saw the rest of the world thriving under the neo-capitalist model it adopted after WWII, and began to question why its people were living in relative economic stagnation and social deprivation. It didn't collapse because of the years of US-led 'red scare' and confrontational approaches to political relations.

 

[TAJ]

They removed gullible from the dictionary!?

That's true.

Spoiler

... is something the OP would believe.

 

[okita]

Because it's funding NK leadership and contributing to the propaganda they push, all while people are suffering. The whole point is to bring in revenue and send people away thinking "it ain't so bad".

Whenever I see pictures of NK, I see a cardboard cutout of a country. Empty and seldom used.

Sincerely i think this "funding" is barely relevant to the situation they are , "it ain't so bad" doesn't mean it's good, you have the right to think like this but should respect people who don't, attacking someone won't change anything ...

 

[Media]

Jeebus.


Touche.

I just watched this one. Seems a little more eye opening seeing it from the perspective of a defector rather than a tourist.

https://youtu.be/_ZEmDpkz0g4

Dear lord that bit about her father's body. Holy shit.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Dear lord that bit about her father's body. Holy shit.

The video message for her sister killed me.

 

[stan423321]

I really can't say I view the world from the perspective of video games, so I can't relate to your zany quip. I meant it in the most traditional sense of the term; it's a small 21st century sliver from a bygone whole, throwing light on the tragedies and insanities of 20th century authoritarian 'communism'.

It looks like that sliver is misleading at the very best, and if the analogy comes from layered cake or lasagne or something like this, I am going to say slice looks horizontal from my point of view.

 

[JrBaconCheeseburger]

Interesting pictures.

I will never go there and really appreciate your pics.

Regardless of it being NK.

 

[Wvrs]

It looks like that sliver is misleading at the very best, and if the analogy comes from layered cake or lasagne or something like this, I am going to say slice looks horizontal from my point of view.

What you don't see is often just as, if not more revealing than what you do see. Granted, it would seem that the OP visited the country without the necessary background knowledge and awareness of history to properly understand what he experienced.

 

[Iztli]

The third was the woman in the photo further above. Happy, beautiful, and smart. She was everyone's favourite guide and what we found out was she wasn't an anomaly. Women in NK generally know and understand things more than men who are more of the followers and sheep. While women don't outwardly say this, the guide told us about it. Miss Puk even knew about other countries and expressed wanting to visit Australia one day. .

Don't snitch on Miss Puk. You never know if they actually read Gaf :O

 

[Carlius]

man i would love to go to N Korea! fuck yeah!
if i could afford to go to mars right now i would too! love this shit! life in this earth is jsut so boring.

 

[Jetman]

Did OP ever put up pictures of the Sith Lord/Great Leader tombs or did ya'll scare him away already?

 

[blackjaw]

You were one ballistic missile test or nuclear test away from being stranded in the country, all it would take is China shutting the border and you are now a political prisoner.

Why anyone would want to risk that for a few photos and a "cool" story, no idea.

 

[anaron]

holy shit at SpaceWolf's posts. haha


perfection.

 

[TAJ]

Did OP ever put up pictures of the Sith Lord/Great Leader tombs or did ya'll scare him away already?

Everyone else took the same tour so there are lots of pictures. Google Kumsusan Palace tomb.
TBH almost all of these tombs with preserved politicians (Russia, Philippines, NK...) look the same.

 

[qcf x2]

I would def go (but I can't, I am neither white nor asian). Thanks for sharing, OP! That's definitely a trip you'll never forget.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Or to flee political persecution, but mostly to get rich yes. Most of the people would agree that the domestic system of the US is great.

I never said that both were related, it's just that you can decide to judge a country by one or the other criteria.
And i don't see any difference between a government killing one own citizens or killing citizens from others countries.

you don't see the difference between death camps and drone strikes?

k

 

[Grizzlyjin]

The thing that gets me here is that - far from worrying about funding NK or anything of that sort - you're saying that traveling and specifically traveling to North Korea was to expand your thoughts on the country? To learn a little something and experience something new? I imagine that's why a lot of us travel the world. Why we find the off beaten path and go somewhere exotic and drink in a culture and people that are entirely unique and special when held against our day to day expectations which is awesome and totally a legit reason to travel.

But this trip of yours was none of that and I think that's maybe where some of the more aggressive responses to your OP are coming from. You can't go on a guided, manufactured, elaborate hoax of a tour and then say you really learned anything. you could apply this to literally anywhere in the world. Why go to Tokyo and then sign up for a walking tour of a few anime shops? Why go to Australia and visit the hotel and the beach and then say you gained some understanding of what it's like for aboriginal peoples in the bush? Why visit the states and see just NY and then claim to know the troubles of people in Detroit or Southern Cali or wherever?

You're coming across as saying you learned a thing and gained a perspective. We are trying to impart unto you that this perspective is a carefully manufactured thing and if you're interested in being a worldly person and a traveler than the last thing you should want is to be hand held through a sideshow. Which is what you saw. A sideshow.

It's a comfortable distraction from the utter shite their govt. is pulling all around that country - and to some extent... you're shrugging at that fact. Some of us have a hard time swallowing that.

Well said. I appreciate OP sharing their experience with us, but I really don't see what you can glean from any of this. When you get down to it, none of this is very illuminating on what North Korea is really like. Seeing what they want you to see, doing what they allow you to do, and speaking who they allow you to speak to is part of the propaganda. If you could go off the beaten path, that would be a different story. This is like me going to the airport Sheraton in Chicago and saying I experienced the city.

But I'm not going to harp on the guy for sharing. He went and wanted to share. I just don't see the point. You can't gain any extra perspective because your entire experience is restricted.

 

[Red Frost]

OP, you've bought into the propaganda.

And did you know, NK tours actually involve people acting fake. You think the regime doesn't know how the world views the country? They're well aware that many see it as a bizarre Truman Show country, and they've taken advantage of that by intentionally letting some of the illusion break.

You say you could tell the difference when something was fake or not. I disagree.

 

[Red Frost]

And no, those kids weren't. We simply drove past them and I had my camera at the ready. They weren't orchestrated and timed.

The hell they weren't. There are people hired exactly to make things timed right whenever people are touring. Sometimes it involves a longer window when multiple groups are involved so to give them some breathing room, and sometimes it's a quick moment, and once the foreigners are out of sight, the children are pulled away.

You have no clue just how much work has gone into the whole Truman show setup.

 

[TheSpoiler]

I dunno those pics are great! Looks so clean and friendly. Why don't more people visit? I think we are far too hard on N.Korea. Like after seeing those pics how can you say those mean things about them?

OP is in the right here. I'm booking my flight right now to experience the world while all you suckas can stay at home wonder what it's like.

 

[Red Frost]

And I swear I've read that exact description of how NK kids react to foreigners elsewhere - "like we were celebrities". Is that a normal reaction for children to strangers?

To be fair, you'll get this in any homogenized country. Was definitely common on my trip to Japan.

 

[scotcheggz]

You say you could tell the difference when something was fake or not. I disagree.

Absolutely. Reading the OP is a little cringey although I'm not going to going to rip on him for going. There are plenty of people who enjoy the whole 'dark tourism' thing and if I had the opportunity then I might consider it.

Anyway, back to the propaganda, there's a really good secrion from a B R Myers book that goes along the lines that north Korean propaganda is anything but subtle, if you see something it's because they want you to see it. They are very very skilled and practiced in this area, there are no mistakes or coincidences. What you see is exactly what they want to show you.

That's the gist anyway. I've got the book on my shelf but I can't be arsed to dig it out to quote exactly.

 

[_Ryo_]

I'm just as disgusted as when I saw the last thread about this. It's morally reprehensible and there is literally no way to justify it except to bring awareness about NK to the ignorant and to try to invoke change.By visiting and taking part in tourism in NK you are empowering a homicidal dictator who abuses and kills thousands of people.

 

[Kid Ying]

Great post! I don't think i will ever have a chance to see it for myself, but i'm certainly inclined after reading this.

 

[Scarecrow]

How much money does a trip like this cost?

 

[nillah]

Free beer and education? Fuck it, people here already work slave shift and can barely make ends meet

 

[Da-Kid]

It's funny how countries demonize other countries when that same country did some horrific things itself.