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[Krejlooc]

No. I'm saying your logical argument that if people don't have power for much of the day then means that they can't have smartphones. That argument doesn't make any sense. N Korea is a whole different beast, but just making up random illogical arguments to get your point across is dumb. I'm fairly certain most people there live a shitty poor life and don't have smartphones, but it's got nothing to do with how often they have electricity.

It's hardly illogical. The point of mentioning their electrical situation isn't to say "Oh man they're so poor!" North Korea used to have a working electrical grid. They are the only instance in the history of modern society of a nation falling back into third world status. North Korea didn't used to be a third world country.

They can't even maintain old infrastructure, it's absurd to think they'd have a modern infrastructure for cell phones.

 

[Condom]

Yah, no one ever complains about the US on this forum. NEVER.

Show me 1 post about someone being criticised for supporting the US regime by travelling there. Good luck.

 

[SuperBanana]

What was the overall tone of the people? Did you feel like they were all unhappy? Do you think that if they had a choice to leave they would? Besides your group did you see any other tourist there?

I think most, if not all of the people have Stockholm syndrome.

And one other western group plus 2 asian groups.

 

[More_Badass]

I don't mind people disagreeing but the smart arse attitude and rudeness isn't necessary. Saying I'm bizarre, disgusting, comparing me to nazi's, ect. Can you not accept a different opinion or view point? No you're right. Even though I was the one who went there and saw it and discussed it with people from all over the world and all aspects of life to get an understand I'm obviously a moron, you're 100% right. Good talk.

I'd say the perspective gained from years of human rights reports and defectors and former prisoners who grew up in the country are more accurate than your view point from a NK-sanctioned and led tourist guide

Im watching a documentary about the propaganda machine there now. Quite fascinating stuff. The funeral scene for Kim Jong 1. Damn.

Is that the one with the blind woman? I remember seeing a really good documentary that showed the funeral

 

[cartographer]

The fascinating thing about people complaining about tourists actually going to North Korea is the thought that they are "supporting the regime by giving them money". The money NK gets from this is peanuts. The number of tourists is extremely low all year long anyway and is really only "open" during the Mass Games period. NK mostly doesn't even feel it from a financial standpoint.

The fact that there are people who think that visiting a country to gain a bigger understanding of the different and the unknown (which was the purpose of OPs trip)=supporting death camps and absolutist regimes is ludicrous. That type of moral dilemma just doesn't apply here.

I'd disagree with the monetary support thing. I imagine it's trivial.

But the free PR you get from people buying into your machine and sharing it with others is priceless.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Nice pictures.

Can't understand why people are attacking the OP (i guess NK is a sensible topic here because of their government) , he is only telling how he felt through his travel and seems to be honest on it which is different to say how NK truly is.

Obviously it's a controlled visit which means something can be very wrong there, by logic if there wasn't any problem it wouldn't be necessary any kind of control, but some of the things they are trying to hide are just dumb, for example the photo on supermarket that someone posted here is not even a big deal , but becomes one because it's prohibited by them so some of it seems like excessive control.

Unfortunately instead of trying to educate the OP some resorted to immediate extremes, which is never the way to convince anyone of anything.

 

[scotcheggz]

Read Barbara Demick's Nothing to Envy and tell me NK is a lovely place. It isn't.

Please don't. Every NK thread, this book is posted. It's really a crap book. There are MANY books better than this one but this is the one that sticks. I don't get it. nothing against you guy, but I am compelled to point this out every time I see it. Its like 2 of every 3 lines are fictional nonsense from the authors imagination, talking about the way a flower sparkled in the moonlight or some other such irrelevant, fictional guff. I felt like I was reading a fluff piece in a granny mag the whole time I read the fucking thing. I think it riles me up so much because she had so much great access to material to write something of real purpose and then she just said fuck that and wrote this abomination to cash in instead. And did she really think the stories she had weren't compelling enough to just lay them out for the reader in a clean manner, so she should really flower them up a bit with her terrible writing?

Start at "under the loving care of the fatherly leader: north Korea and the Kim dynasty - Bradley K Martin" if you want to learn anything about life in North Korea. It's probably a dryer read but so it should be.

Now where did I put my glass of Port and monocle...

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Unfortunately instead of trying to educate the OP some resorted to immediate extremes, which is never the way to convince anyone of anything.

I have never insulted him and gave nothing but facts to show why his perception is a problem and yet he wont even respond to me .

 

[DreadfulOmen]

I think most, if not all of the people have Stockholm syndrome.

And one other western group plus 2 asian groups.

Let's say you're walking down the street and see some people, would you be able to talk to them, or are they not allowed to talk to you?

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Is that the one with the blind woman? I remember seeing a really good documentary that showed the funeral

I have not seen a blind woman yet, no. This one is more focused on Kim Jong Un and his take over. The propaganda is a major talking point but not the main focus of this one.

Kim Jong Un: The unauthorized biography

 

[SuperBanana]

Let's say you're walking down the street and see some people, would you be able to talk to them, or are they not allowed to talk to you?

I mean they can I guess but they only speak Korean. They probably wouldn't want to chat anyway. Maybe a hello but that's it. They keep to themselves.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

This is a US based forum, the US of A has done more harm than NK leadership could ever dream of but I don't see the same reactions to the US.
The reaction of team outrage is blatently hypocritical at best.

Oh my fucking god, USA whataboutism in a North Korea thread... >_<

Unfortunately instead of trying to educate the OP some resorted to immediate extremes, which is never the way to convince anyone of anything.

Plenty of posters have tried to educate the OP, but they staunchly refuse to listen. Instead they prefer to wallow in some sort of persecution complex like "wah wah I'm being compared to nazis".

 

[SuperBanana]

I have never insulted him and gave nothing but facts to show why his perception is a problem and yet he wont even respond to me .

There's like a million people yelling at me. It's hard to keep up. I'll look at your comments tonight.

 

[stan423321]

Let's say you're walking down the street and see some people, would you be able to talk to them, or are they not allowed to talk to you?

Stop. This is too simplistic. NK leaders have asked themselves the very same question I bet. Probable answer is they try to weed out tourists speaking Korean and maybe lead them onto better "actors", but maybe not. It doesn't really matter.

While we say this was a theme park we don't mean a circus with some pumps for the tent. We mean a really slick playtested theme park.

 

[213372bu]

This is a US based forum, the US of A has done more harm than NK leadership could ever dream of but I don't see the same reactions to the US.
The reaction of team outrage is blatently hypocritical at best.

Hell there are people on this very forum that complained about my trip to Russia lmao

Your intelligence shines in your posts Condom.

Especially comparing the USA's political history/climate with the current climate in NK.

Truly a visionary among us.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

The rare thread where everyone unites to shit on the OP

Interesting pics. Maybe it's time to stop posting and take a drier, more measured outlook on what you saw.

There's like a million people yelling at me. It's hard to keep up. I'll look at your comments tonight.

For your own good, you should probably just pack it up now.

 

[stufte]

Show me 1 post about someone being criticised for supporting the US regime by travelling there. Good luck.

1. The US isn't a regime.
2. The US doesn't restrict movement to obfuscate the shitty parts of the country for propaganda purposes.

It's not at all comparable.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

It's so empty...

 

[Wvrs]

I never realised you could go. I mean, I knew people did, but I thought it was just for journalists and the like. Looking online it seems like you could go for as little as $1000. Man, I'm interested. Being British, I'd probably feel a little safer than if I were American. I love to travel and experiencing different cultures and ways of life; this would be the ultimate in esoteric travel, wow.

Thanks OP, I'm genuinely going to look into doing this at some point in the future, planning on teaching English in China perhaps within the next few years so it could definitely be a real option for me to visit from Beijing. Assuming the geopolitical situation with them doesn't drastically change, that is. How's the application process -- do they vet you prior to travelling, etc?

edit: people berating the OP for this? Get a grip. No one's denying that the North Korean regime is awful and a blight upon human rights, but it is what it is and it's still a fascinating vertical slice of 20th century communism, one of the most bizarre nations in the modern world and whose morbid curiosity wouldn't be engaged by such a thing?

 

[MrCunningham]

Because it's funding NK leadership and contributing to the propaganda they push, all while people are suffering. The whole point is to bring in revenue and send people away thinking "it ain't so bad".

Whenever I see pictures of NK, I see a cardboard cutout of a country. Empty and seldom used.

I'm sure they also encourage people to take photos and possibly even videos in the designated areas that they are only allowed to visit to help put a positive spin on NK's public relations. But in reality, I'm sure no tourists are really convinced by the facade that NK puts up. If anything it only causes for more speculation.

 

[Milly Osworth]

I don't mind people disagreeing but the smart arse attitude and rudeness isn't necessary. Saying I'm bizarre, disgusting, comparing me to nazi's, ect. Can you not accept a different opinion or view point? No you're right. Even though I was the one who went there and saw it and discussed it with people from all over the world and all aspects of life to get an understand I'm obviously a moron, you're 100% right. Good talk.

The truth is in the middle, but you cant expect a good discussion on the internet. Half the people piling up on you probably have no clue about NK.

 

[88random]

Thanks for the thread. I'd really like to go there myself.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

1. The US isn't a regime.
2. The US doesn't restrict movement to obfuscate the shitty parts of the country for propaganda purposes.

It's not at all comparable.

Well it depend on your criteria. Many people would feel that a isolationist dictatorial regime is better than a democracy who constantly bomb others countries.

I know people who won't go to US for this exact same reason.

 

[TAJ]

As soon as I saw that the OP believed the bugs were really turned off I knew that he was exactly the sort of person that these tourist programs wish and hope for.

You literally called it a human zoo.

A zoo has animals in carefully curated displays. A human zoo would naturally have humans in carefully curated displays.

 

[DreadfulOmen]

I mean they can I guess but they only speak Korean. They probably wouldn't want to chat anyway. Maybe a hello but that's it. They keep to themselves.

But why do you think they keep to themselves? Do you think it's because they are scared they will get punished for it? How did the rest of your group feel about the trip?

Anyways thanks for the post, i enjoyed reading about your trip.

 

[The Omega Man]

Well it depend on your criteria. Many people would feel that a isolationist dictatorial regime is better than a democracy who constantly bomb others countries.

I know people who won't go to US for this exact same reason.

In the scale of shiitiest countries, the ones that systematically murder, torture and rape their own people are usually on top.

 

[stufte]

Well it depend on your criteria. Many people would feel that a isolationist dictatorial regime is better than a democracy who constantly bomb others countries.

I know people who won't go to US for this exact same reason.

Many people, eh?

Those people must have an astounding grasp on world politics.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

Oh my fucking god, USA whataboutism in a North Korea thread... >_<


Plenty of posters have tried to educate the OP, but they staunchly refuse to listen. Instead they prefer to wallow in some sort of persecution complex like "wah wah I'm being compared to nazis".

Which is why I said some---I see there are plenty of you not being complete dicks. I can't say anything positive for those who immediately jumped down his throat and were shitty right off the bat. The discussion was smashed to shit before it even got started.

 

[DukeLongfellow]

I'd disagree with the monetary support thing. I imagine it's trivial.

But the free PR you get from people buying into your machine and sharing it with others is priceless.

Eh, somewhat but not completely true. If people visiting the country don't know much about it or how it operates (or are just generally gullible) I might agree more. But the few tourists who visit it actually mostly DO have quite an idea of what they're going into. It is BECAUSE they know what the country is that they make the trip in the first place. But as someone who has a decent amount of interest in what goes on there I have never read a single account that completely fell for it the way a lot of people are accusing OP of doing.

In fact, OP has done nothing but provide an honest and as unbiased as possible view of his trip yet some people are treating him like the spawn of Satan. And I can't understand why. This is the last place where I expected outrage over what is a personal, documentary retelling and was never anything more.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

In the scale of shiitiest countries, the ones that systematically murder, torture and rape their own people are usually on top.

Who make that scale ?

24 % of world population see US as the major threat against world peace. Far more than any other country.

 

[East Lake]

I thought I'd just make a note on the arguments in support of doing this trip and why they're a problem.

The first is that it's "informative" or an interesting experience. This seems benign but taken by itself seems like an accomplishment for the regime. The counterargument that it's not very informative seems a lot more compelling. Everyone seems to agree that it's a controlled experience, and hints of spontaneity aren't a serious refutation of that. What you're allowed to see isn't a representative depiction of the country if that is the goal.

The second is sort of a middle ground where we acknowledge yes NK might be horrible but the tourism might help normalize the relationship or humanize the people of NK or something. But people rightly point out that foreigners don't generally hate the people of NK, and I think you then have the same problem that comes with viewing a controlled experience. I'd be skeptical that your warm foreign charm is particularly useful in a controlled environment. The problem is that these people have no agency in their own society. That a foreigner gets to interact with them in this environment isn't necessarily useful to their lot in life, and seems like a rationalization on the part of the visitor that the interaction was useful.

The third is that visiting doesn't mean anything morally because everyone abuses human rights. While this is sort of true the observation by itself isn't particularly useful. For one it essentially handwaves all moral considerations out the window. If you're going to go further and argue about the quality of the abuse between different countries, there are serious differences, one important one being that if a person tours the US for example you can walk freely and generally not worry the totalitarian regime might object. I can choose to look for or ignore human rights abuses as I see fit.

 

[213372bu]

Well it depend on your criteria. Many people would feel that a isolationist dictatorial regime is better than a democracy who constantly bomb others countries.

I know people who won't go to US for this exact same reason.

The "many people" who equate North Korea as a better country than the United States are morons.

Regardless of our terrible domestic and foreign policy, one is a fascist dictatorship that has concentration camps, a starving population, harmful domestic and international propaganda, and firing squads that act if you blink the wrong way. All among many other HUGE tragedies committed under the regime.

The other isn't.

 

[stufte]

Who make that scale ?

24 % of world population see US as the major threat against world peace. Far more than any other country.

And from that article as well:

Interestingly, the U.S. was also the country to which people around the world would most like to move, if given the opportunity.

I wonder how many people would like to move to NK?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Many people, eh?

Those people must have an astounding grasp on world politics.

Well it's hard to have a very strong opinion about North Korea authoritarianism when you're kids are constantly threatened by US drones. Or when you're country was recently invaded or bombed by the US army. Or imposed a murderous dictatorship.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

There's like a million people yelling at me. It's hard to keep up. I'll look at your comments tonight.

Cool if you have any questions or explantions ill be happy to answear them.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I wonder how many people would like to move to NK?

Both thing are unrelated. People try to get into USA for material gain, not for its foreign policy.

 

[Condom]

In the scale of shiitiest countries, the ones that systematically murder, torture and rape their own people are usually on top.

people are people, own citizens or not

 

[greepoman]

Seems a little weird to put "gymnastics" in English on their shirts. Also why does the first kid have new balance shoes on. Interesting to think what the motivations were in staging this.

 

[I Stalk Alone]

If only we can send out a million mini drones each armed with a million smartphones, armed with looping videos of all the beautiful and technological places in the world with videos of all the things modern life is giving us then tell them about our freedoms. But maybe all they will see is outside world propaganda.

The only way for north korea to be saved is for the people to rise up and overthrow their government together.

 

[stufte]

Both thing are unrelated. People try to get into USA for material gain, not for its foreign policy.

So people only move to the USA to get rich?

You know what else is unrelated? The USA's foreign policy and NK's domestic policies.

 

[Clott]

I am sure it was answered somewhere in this thread, but here it goes.

How much did the trip cost? all expenses including.

 

[213372bu]

people are people, own citizens or not

Excuse me?

Either you can't type or a sentence or your equating the rapes committed and hand-waved by the NK military/government as "people are people".

Not sure what ",own citizens or not" is supposed to mean.

 

[cartographer]

Eh, somewhat but not completely true. If people visiting the country don't know much about it or how it operates (or are just generally gullible) I might agree more. But the few tourists who visit it actually mostly DO have quite an idea of what they're going into. It is BECAUSE they know what the country is that they make the trip in the first place. But as someone who has a decent amount of interest in what goes on here I have never read a single account that completely fell for it the way a lot of people are accusing OP of doing so.

In fact, OP has done nothing but provide an honest and as unbiased as possible view of his trip yet some people are treating him like the spawn of Satan. And I can't understand why. This is the last place where I expected outrage over what is a personal, documentary retelling and was never anything more.

Except that it's clearly seemed to work on OP. And from past experience, it works on others, too. The point isn't to completely change their minds. It to get them to buy into a facade in hopes that it will color their perception on an area or two.

It's all about how foreigners perceive the country, which is why OP and others aren't allowed to do normal things like leaving their hotel unsupervised or hold onto their own documents. Have to limit peeks behind the curtain or the propaganda fails.

 

[Nickle]

This is the angriest I've been since they removed "gullible" from the dictionary.

 

[The Omega Man]

Who make that scale ?

24 % of world population see US as the major threat against world peace. Far more than any other country.

So you are telling me 24% of the world fear a heavily armed super power? That sounds ok. And as non US citizen that makes them potentially dangerous but for all the chaos they could cause worldwide 24% seems actually low and based on fear.
But shitty country? That goes for the ones that don't even care for their own, the ones the murder, torture and rape their own with impunity. I take that 24% fear of an unlikely scenario over any country that kills their own.

 

[ColdPizza]

Seems a little weird to put "gymnastics" in English on their shirts. Also why does the first kid have new balance shoes on. Interesting to think what the motivations were in staging this.

Dude, those are the gold medalists for the DPRK Olympic men's gymnastics team.

 

[Beefy]

Seems weird that the subject has changed to the US.

 

[stufte]

Seems weird that the subject has changed to the US.

That's because it's basically the same as NK, and you shouldn't judge. Or something.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

So people only move to the USA to get rich?

You know what else is unrelated? The USA's foreign policy and NK's domestic policies.

Or to flee political persecution, but mostly to get rich yes. Most of the people would agree that the domestic system of the US is great.

I never said that both were related, it's just that you can decide to judge a country by one or the other criteria.
And i don't see any difference between a government killing one own citizens or killing citizens from others countries.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

OP needs an -s appended to his name because he's super bananas.