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IGN: Nintendo vs. Modernism
- Thread starter Tripon
- Start date
Neoriceisgood
Member
Rite of Spring was one of my favourite songs in Fantasia.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
pretty good article.
Nintendo will do their own thing, they aren't followers and that's what makes them so great. (just give me an account system haha)
Nintendo will do their own thing, they aren't followers and that's what makes them so great. (just give me an account system haha)
Freezie KO
Banned
But Nintendo isn't suddenly making Mega Man 9 as some statement on the purity on earlier form. They're just reusing what are the most recent assets and gameplay mechanics to move profit-minded products.
The IGN article posits the following questions if games should:
I would say "No." But Nintendo is not even giving us freshness within its chosen values. If it wants to stick by the old values of "gameplay first", that's great. But by mere iteration of gameplay rather than something new or exciting, Nintendo is not even living up to the classic standards it set on its very first home console.
Nintendo may be a "neoclassical" developer. But they are in the business of selling new software, different software, to provide people with new experiences. After all, we can always go back and play our classics without the need to buy new ones if the experiences have not changed.
The IGN article posits the following questions if games should:
I would say "No." But Nintendo is not even giving us freshness within its chosen values. If it wants to stick by the old values of "gameplay first", that's great. But by mere iteration of gameplay rather than something new or exciting, Nintendo is not even living up to the classic standards it set on its very first home console.
Nintendo may be a "neoclassical" developer. But they are in the business of selling new software, different software, to provide people with new experiences. After all, we can always go back and play our classics without the need to buy new ones if the experiences have not changed.
Dictator93
Member
I am pretty sure the development of the gamepad has nothing to do with the success of the tablet market. Absolutely positive.
I'm in the same gondola you are riding. Nintendo can do whatever the fuck they want. If it looks interesting, I'll continue to buy it. Let neutral processes help point them in the same direction within the spectrum of game development, but if it comes to a process where other influences begin to dictate what they do then I am bailing the fuck out.
I get enough Western garbage through PC games. Last thing I need is for that bullshit to influence Nintendo to a degree where I don't feel comfortable playing their games as well.
I don't give a shit what the Gamepad does and doesn't do, nor its impact on the market influence. That the Gamepad exists as cumbersome as an entity it is, is enough for me. The fact that I can legally play Earthbound in my own bed without the need for an SDTV hooked up to a dying SNES is enough to validate my opinion.
But I thought the development of all these touch screen devices, including tablets, was in response to the success of the Nintendo DS.
Remember when Nintendo tried to do a system that revolved around nothing but games?
I agree.
I think it's interesting to look deeper at Nintendo's motives here. But, I also think it's a little silly to try to overlook that fact that Nintendo is primarily a business that is, at the forefront, concerned with making as much money as possible while spending as little money as possible. They have a staple of legacy franchises and a sizable base of fans that'll buy anything. They capitalize on that. Sometimes, things really are that simple.
It's hard to look at Nintendo's offerings now and see inventiveness within a traditional "straight-up gaming" philosophy when they continue to recycle gameplay mechanics and franchises (they're getting beat quite handily by the indie community in that regard, as is everyone). When I look at Nintendo, I don't see a company holding to its "values" for the principle of it. I see a company holding to its values until not doing so presents an obvious benefit at no cost to them.
So a failure in execution means that the concept is flawed too?
Does Nintendo not have a staple of legacy franchises?
Do they also not have one of the most dedicated fanbases in gaming?
nkarafo
Member
Nintendo is one of the very few companies left who make "AAA" games that don't look like hollywood movies. Its nice to have variety. So, yes the concept of Nintendo following the others is flawed.
jts
...hate me...
It's a home console version of the DS. Nintendo may be reaping from the market but they absolutely helped to sow it as well.
The Nintendo DS was pretty much the 1st huge hit mainstream touchscreen device, iirc.
I disagree, they are using familiar visuals and mechanics while providing the most carefully crafted and well designed levels and gameplay they've ever made.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
they don't want to be in the the same field.
They made touchscreens popular with the DS, they have every right to use one and not seem like they are ripping off anyone.
You know what I'm talking about : "that'll buy anything." That's the wrong, subjective and dismissive part.
Femmeworth
Banned
Hmm, I'm not well versed in philosophy, but I don't think that definition of modernism or the author's understanding of it is quite correct.
Except... How many companies today make big budget retail platformers? Nintendo, Sega, Sony, and Ubisoft to my knowledge. Most of the rest are indie games using the platformer genre because it is a cheap way make a game in compared to other genres and they likely have nostalgia for that genre. In this sense, a Mario platformer is new because few others will make a platform game with a retail budget.
Of course, Nintendo is merely doing business, but even Shakespeare, greatest playwright ever, greatest writer ever, wrote his plays primarily to make money off of them.
Well let me put it another way: Nintendo has a large dedicated group of fans who are more likely to purchase their games even if they aren't of the genres currently popular with the gaming community at large.
Better?
I can definitely see Nintendo's return to simplicity and minimalism. It is really evident in just about every thing they've got coming out right now. After enjoying the NSMB games a lot and growing bored to hell of Skyward Sword, I can say that I really like this direction. Games are just becoming too convoluted.
And Nintendo still has made FPSes and more cinematic action games. Metroid Prime was universally acclaimed but apparently just as forgotten as Other M which is similar to a modern AAA action game. Let's not forget all of the games they've published over the years.
You're absolutely right. That's why I would love to see Nintendo tackle hollywood like experiences seriously. They've already got the family fare down pat.
Trent Strong
Banned
The hell? Is Nintendo supposed to be Stravinsky in this analogy? Nintendo makes the same four games over and over again.
nkarafo
Member
Metroid is not a traditional FPS. Also, the game is far from forgotten.
Metroid Prime is much better than a traditional FPS, and it's quite forgotten in these discussions.
walking fiend
Member
What I like about them, is that they are unpredictable.
They may release a classic, conservative Zelda [TP] and then release one full of risks [SS], or do one full of risks [WW] and then release a conservative one [TP]. Or they may just keep making innovative ones [SMG I & II], or conventional ones [NSMB].
They just do what they want to do.
nkarafo
Member
So you want all games to become like hollywood experiences? I don't get it. That's the opposite of variety. Also the "family friendly" thing has nothing to do with their games not being cinematic. The opposite of cinematic games isn't kiddie games.
If there were more companies who made games look like games i wouldn't have much of a problem but like i said, Nintendo is one of the very few companies left.
walking fiend
Member
That's cute; considering that shooters have been the same games since what, descent and doom?
Not speaking for him specifically, but I believe some minority among games want to see how Nintendo can push those type of games if they try to. Like how MP took the first person genre and created some marvelous.
They can do both man. They have like a 5 billion dollar war chest.
They have that 5 billion dollar war chest because they've been smart with their money.
It wouldn't be smart to persue 'hollywood' games when the cost of doing those means selling 3 million copies is a bomb.
Resources are limited: money, time, manpower.
The games Nintendo traditionally makes are underrepresented in the current market while "modern" games are overabundant.
The games Nintendo makes seem to be more difficult to make at as high a quality as Nintendo makes them. A lot of modern AAA sacrifice player agency to create a better-looking product.
Nintendo still branches out and makes new games... that are immediately ignored because they aren't Mario, Zelda, etc.
Freezie KO
Banned
It's entirely possible that NSMBU has "the most carefully crafted and well designed levels" in the NSMB series to date. But the games play so damn similarly, I'm not going to buy yet another level pack. This time with a squirrel suit that plays like the cape from SMW.
I say that as a Nintendo fan who wants to buy more Mario platformers. I'm not asking them to make AAA "Hollywood" games with poorly-written stories.
Game Guru said:
Making a Mario platformer is different from the rest of the industry, perhaps. But it's not new. I have no problem with them making money. And I have no problem with platformers.
To stay on topic, I do disagree with the idea that the values they are sticking by are their own classical values. On their classic consoles, they used to innovate within their platformers. Now? It's like Stravinsky remixed a few notes and called it a new composition.
but if we do then it's much easier to fit into a narrative.
nkarafo
Member
Yes but some of these games can't be made like movies unless they take everything that defines them and throw it out of the window. Metroid, for instance, is a series that has many defining mechanics that can't work in a movie like game.
Well that's your problem. You're not even giving a game a chance because of how it looks. SMW is very mechanically similar to SMB3. You can throw shells up and there's a spin jump that makes almost all obstacles pretty much trivial. The levels have less variety and are easier. Did you have a problem with it?
You misuse "level pack" since that implies no advancement which is most assuredly not the case with these games.
Right. I mean, who would want a console with a bunch of AAA Hollywood experiences AND Nintendo IP's. In today's market, no one because Nintendo has ruined any chances of making that dream come true. But its not too late. They can turn things around next-gen if they chose.
Freezie KO
Banned
Actually, I do think SMW is way too easy, and the cape is broken. That said, it did a great job adding a host of new enemies and, of course, Yoshi. Plus there was climbing on cages and the way the map was laid out with switches and whatnot. It felt fresh at the time for sure.
Chû Totoro
Member
j/k ?
____
And going back on real topic, the article is quite good but using this type of comparison is not the best that could have been done imo. Painting would have fit better knowing all the different quality genres there is in this art (both modern and classic). It would have illustrated better that there is no rules for quality. That it's just a question of perception.
Nintendo is just trying to make games. And games are made to have fun. Hence their main objective is to make fun games !
They don't pretend to make art and they're not trying to copy other arts / medias form of conception. Even if sometimes their level design can almost be considered as piece of art for games but it's more like artistic techniques.
They're not doing artistic games imo or at least not the kind that I enjoy. Flower or SoTC have this vibe, they bring me feelings, there is a very special atmosphere... it's like I'm sharing something with the devs when playing. There is a connection made by the game that makes video games very special. Few games are using this the way it could be.
This said I don't want only games like this... variety is the key to success and it leads to wonderful things. I only wish it was less hard for devs to be creative. All the financial objectives and the influence of marketing is just making the big majority of the games to be produced like Hollywood movies... just an enjoyable entertainment, but not well executed or just the same thing wrapped in a different package
Nintendo is just doing the opposite. When the new ideas they have don't deserve to be in a new franchise they just put them in something that already works good and everybody knows. No need for 10 different platformer mascots if it's so we can have the same thing.
Nintendo is a really humble company, they will never pretend that what they're doing is art. Like I said they're just trying to make games, fun games.
I would say that a Mario platformer is probably a bad representation of the neoclassicalism idea. For a recent example, I would've used Wii Sports. While most sports games followed the yearly licensing model, Wii Sports drew inspiration from the games prior to that which would have names like Baseball, Golf, and Tennis, but used a relatively unique control scheme because of the motion controls the Wii added.
In any case, Super Mario 3D Land was fairly new compared to previous Mario platformers, and Super Mario 3D World looks to be adding co-op to 3D Platformers using 3D Land's form as a basis. 3D Land is certainly different from Galaxy, which is different from either 64 or Sunshine or the Old and New SMB games. Being similar to its prequel did not hurt the quality of Galaxy 2, I might add.
I can't even imagine the revolt that will come from the next Zelda. People are expecting Dark Souls-esque and something from that Twilight Princess tech demo. I bet the focus on simplicity will be epitomized in that game and we'll get some really crazy fan meltdowns over it. The writing is already on the wall with a Wind Waker remake being done by the same team working on Zelda U. We're going to get something people aren't asking for.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I'm pretty sure that's not what modernism is.
dont get me wrong, games wise the company has been an amazing pioneer, my point was more to their target audience focus, online infrastructure, account system, etc etc