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[Nafai1123]

Still hasn't been disproven despite multiple changes to the test configuration to account for other forces. http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38577.msg1440938#msg1440938

I wish I could show you all the pictures I've taken on how we saluted and mitigated the issues raised by our EW Lab's Blue-Ribbon PhD panel and now Potomac-Neuron's paper, on the possible Lorentz force interactions. That being the Lorentz Interactions with the dc currents on the EW torque pendulum (TP) with the stray magnetic fields from the torque pendulum's first generation open-face magnetic damper and the Earth's geomagnetic field, but I can't due to the restrictive NASA press release rules now applied to the EW Lab.

However since I still can't show you this supporting data until the EW Lab gets our next peer-reviewed lab paper published, I will tell you that we first built and installed a 2nd generation, closed face magnetic damper that reduced the stray magnetic fields in the vacuum chamber by at least an order of magnitude and any Lorentz force interactions it could produce. I also changed up the torque pendulum's grounding wire scheme and single point ground location to minimize ground loop current interactions with the remaining stray magnetic fields and unbalanced dc currents from the RF amplifier when its turned on. This reduced the Lorentz force interaction to less than 2 micro-Newton (uN) for the dummy load test. Finally we rebuilt the copper frustum test article so that it is now fully integrated with the RF VCO, PLL, 100W RF amp, dual directional coupler, 3-stub tuner and connecting coax cables, then mounted this integrated test article at the opposite end of the torque pendulum, as far away as possible from the 2nd generation magnetic damper where only the required counterbalance weights now reside. Current null testing with both the 50 ohm dummy load and with the integrated test article rotated 90 degrees with respect to the TP sensitive axis now show less than one uN of Lorentz forces on the TP due to dc magnetic interactions with the local environment even when drawing the maximum RF amp dc current of 12 amps.

Given all of the above TP wiring and test article modifications with respect to our 2014 AIAA/JPC paper design baseline needed to address these Lorentz force magnetic interaction issues, we are still seeing over 100uN of force with 80W of RF power going into the frustum running in the TM212 resonant mode, now in both directions, dependent on the direction of the mounted integrated test article on the TP. However these new plus and minus thrust signatures are still contaminated by thermally induced TP center of gravity (cg) zero-thrust baseline shifts brought on by the expansion of the copper frustum and aluminum RF amp and its heat sink when heated by the RF, even though these copper and aluminum cg shifts are now fighting each other. (Sadly these TP cg baseline shifts are ~3X larger in-vacuum than in-air due to the better insulating qualities of the vacuum, so the in-vacuum thrust runs look very thermally contaminated whereas the in-air run look very impulsive.) So we have now developed an analytical tool to help separate the EM-Drive thrust pulse waveform contributions from the thermal expansion cg induced baseline shifts of the TP. Not being satisfied with just this analytical impulsive vs thermal signal separation approach, we are now working on a new integrated test article subsystem mounting arrangement with a new phase-change thermal management subsystem that should mitigate this thermally induced TP cg baseline shift problem once and for-all.

And yet the anomalous thrust signals remain...

Best, Paul March

 

[Averon]

I still think that this will be disproved eventually, but it is exciting to think about.

 

[Branduil]

I was expecting this bump to be news of it being disproven, glad to see that isn't the case.

 

[DedValve]

I really want to believe this wont be disproven. Shit would be so magical.

 

[OgTheClever]

There's also an article which was linked in the thread:

NASA Eagleworks has tested an upgraded Emdrive

This bit is interesting:

What space missions are possible with early versions if this is true?

Based on test data and theoretical model development, the expected thrust to power for initial flight applications is expected to be in the 0.4 newton per kilowatt electric (N/kWe) range, which is about seven times higher than the current state of the art Hall thruster in use on orbit today. The following figures show the value proposition for this class of electric propulsion. A conservative 300 kilowatt solar electric propulsion roundtrip human exploration class mission to Mars/Deimos. A 90 metric ton 2 megawatt (MW) nuclear electric propulsion mission to Mars that has considerable reduction in transit times due to having a thrust to mass ratio greater than the gravitational acceleration of the Sun (0.6 milli-g’s at 1 AU). The same spacecraft mass performing a roundtrip mission to the Saturn system spending over a year around two moons of interest, Titan and Enceladus. Even in this last class of mission which requires only a single heavy lift launch vehicle, the mission has less mission duration than is common with a current conjunction-class Mars mission using chemical propulsion systems and which would require multiple heavy lift launch vehicles. 300 kW SEP Roundtrip Mission to Mars Deimos (50 day stay) departing from DRO 300 kW SEP

 

[RedShift]

Until there's something literally in space using this engine I still don't expect it to work.

I am surprised it's lasted this long though.

 

[Just_myles]

I agree. Unless we can use it for something practical and within the next 5 years then forget about it. You would think we would be hearing more about something that could potentially change mankind as we know it. I guess this makes it junk science? Or are organizations secretly behind the scenes going full steam ahead???

The implications of this kind of speed is crazy and should be explored and publicized by reputable news outlets.

 

[dubc35]

I agree. Unless we can use it for something practical and within the next 5 years then forget about it. You would think we would be hearing more about something that could potentially change mankind as we know it. I guess this makes it junk science? Or are organizations secretly behind the scenes going full steam ahead???

The implications of this kind of speed is crazy and should be explored and publicized by reputable news outlets.

5 years is pretty fast to design, test, verify and validate systems, fabricate, install and launch (this assumes the only practical use would be in space).

As far as news outlets, I agree but people are probably too busy with what the Kardashians are eating for hors d'oeuvres on Tuesday nights.

 

[Jarmel]

I keep expecting this to get disproven. Hope that's not the case.

 

[Sectorseven]

There's also an article which was linked in the thread:

NASA Eagleworks has tested an upgraded Emdrive

This bit is interesting:

So, is that good?

 

[Tertullian]

Lord, I believe; help my unbelief.

 

[akira28]

So, is that good?

oh yeah. its definitely pretty good.

 

[Fenderputty]

I was expecting this bump to be news of it being disproven, glad to see that isn't the case.

Same. Good news so far.

 

[Fishlake]

I hope this is real and I live to see one built that can quickly be sent to the nearest star before I die.


I want to be around for the beginning of the age of exploring the rest of the galaxy.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

Until there's something literally in space using this engine I still don't expect it to work.

I am surprised it's lasted this long though.

Because the EmDrive is the real deal.

Believe.

 

[Log4Girlz]

That facility is basically hobbyists at Nasa though. Isn't their annual budget 50k?

 

[Volimar]

I hope this keeps proving itself. I love the idea of using an engine that we don't quite know why it works.

 

[subrock]

I would be amazed if a test version of this isn't going to space soon. Seems like something simple enough to include in a payloads of experiments.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

I agree. Unless we can use it for something practical and within the next 5 years then forget about it. You would think we would be hearing more about something that could potentially change mankind as we know it. I guess this makes it junk science? Or are organizations secretly behind the scenes going full steam ahead???

The implications of this kind of speed is crazy and should be explored and publicized by reputable news outlets.

I imagine the "we still don't know exactly why this works" thing puts a damper on going full speed ahead with development

 

[SpeedySwaf]

So, is that good?

The article says that traveling from Earth to Saturn could theoretically be done in 269 days. With our current rocket technology, the trip would normally be five years.

So if this continues to pan out and is able to live up to expectations, this could be huge for space travel. We still won't be entering other star systems, but as far as just traveling within our own Solar System, it can make certain missions much more feasible.

 

[Flo_Evans]

This is like some Area 51 shit!

 

[A-V-B]

The article says that traveling from Earth to Saturn could theoretically be done in 269 days. With our current rocket technology, the trip would normally be five years.

Wow, a roughly 85 percent decrease in travel time? That's crazy.

That means only a month to Mars? Something like that?

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

Wow, a roughly 85 percent decrease in travel time? That's crazy.

That means only a month to Mars? Something like that?

article says 50 days

with current tech it takes 9 months

 

[Proelite]

Wow, a roughly 85 percent decrease in travel time? That's crazy.

That means only a month to Mars? Something like that?

They need to reshoot the martian.

 

[A-V-B]

article says 50 days

with current tech it takes 9 months

I thought the estimate was about 8 months?

 

[andythinkpad]

The main power of the engine is love.

 

[Alexlf]

I refuse to get my hopes up, but every time I hear of the new volley of tests the engine has passed I feel a tiny bit more excited.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

I still don't believe it. But it would be nice.

 

[SpeedySwaf]

article says 50 days

with current tech it takes 9 months

Actually, the 50 days is in relation to staying on Mars or Deimos.

EDIT: The trip itself would vary, depending on Earth and Mars distance from one another at launch. At 0.4N/kW, we're looking at 66-110 days. That's still five months quicker than conventional methods when Mars and Earth are at their closest (260 days, according to a Google search). The picture they use also shows a 22-28 day trip to Mars, though in that case the thrust is 4N/kW. I'm assuming Earth's relationship to the Sun plays some part in this increase, though I may be wrong.

Again, though, this is all assuming their projections pan out.

 

[Yagharek]

I hope this keeps proving itself. I love the idea of using an engine that we don't quite know why it works.

Maybe it's powered in the same way bumblebees fly aka they can only fly because they don't know they shouldn't be able to.

Spoiler

yes, I know this is debunked now but it's amusing to me

 

[catapult37]

Maybe it's powered in the same way bumblebees fly aka they can only fly because they don't know they shouldn't be able to.

Spoiler

yes, I know this is debunked now but it's amusing to me

It's like flying: you just throw yourself at the ground and miss.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

The article says that traveling from Earth to Saturn could theoretically be done in 269 days. With our current rocket technology, the trip would normally be five years.

So if this continues to pan out and is able to live up to expectations, this could be huge for space travel. We still won't be entering other star systems, but as far as just traveling within our own Solar System, it can make certain missions much more feasible.

Well, more an issue of practicality i'd think. I mean, if you were to lunch something like New horizons on a Saturn 5, and use all that extra weight for fuel, You could get it there hella fast. It would just be insanely expensive and kind of wasteful.

This engine is interesting, but has it gone thought he full batter of tests yet? Are there any major peer reviewed articles about it or such?

 

[everyday math]

There's also an article which was linked in the thread:

NASA Eagleworks has tested an upgraded Emdrive

This bit is interesting:

I feel like an idiot reading this article. So much I don't understand. But it sounds cool and I hope we have it really working one day.

 

[Slayer-33]

This is probably a true life hack. A true hack of the system. I wouldn't be surprised.

So over long distances this thing would keep speeding up right?

-Edited wrong word-

 

[Meffer]

This is probably a true life hack. A true hack of the system. I wouldn't be surprised.

So over long distances this though would keep speeding up right?

Yes. Another factor would be to slow down early so you don't over shoot.

 

[antonz]

Well, more an issue of practicality i'd think. I mean, if you were to lunch something like New horizons on a Saturn 5, and use all that extra weight for fuel, You could get it there hella fast. It would just be insanely expensive and kind of wasteful.

This engine is interesting, but has it gone thought he full batter of tests yet? Are there any major peer reviewed articles about it or such?

The Chinese have be doing constant testing. Stuff gets published but the Chinese Government is holding back a lot of info so its treated as interesting data that seems to support the drive

 

[Gallbaro]

Yes. Another factor would be to slow down early so you don't over shoot.

Does the acceleration of it come anywhere close to descent gravity? Now that you can have long term acceleration...

 

[Cerium]

Propellant is probably being generated by incineration of materials inside the cavity.

 

[Scirrocco]

It's really cool that we still can't explain this. Even if in the end it xoesnt work and we don't get flying cars, well still probably learn someonehing new from all this about how the universe works.

 

[Riki]

The Chinese have be doing constant testing. Stuff gets published but the Chinese Government is holding back a lot of info so its treated as interesting data that seems to support the drive

Is it bad that I want China to perfect this and make it functional first so it makes the US government get off their ass and see that a new Space race I necessary?

 

[Wyndstryker]

Everytime I see this thread pop up I think it's getting debunked.

Fact it's still going and have multiple groups producing data makes it more and more fascinating.

Imagine how people would react if he chinese threw a functional drive in space first

 

[Sulik2]

Propellant is probably being generated by incineration of materials inside the cavity.

Whelp that seems like a pretty good explanation. I expect this to be debunked soon. RIP em drive.

 

[Bigboss242]

So it's fake And a waste of time.

 

[Proelite]

RIP.

 

[Wyndstryker]

Propellant is probably being generated by incineration of materials inside the cavity.

That post is at least 3 months old. 5 months if you look at the original post in the nasa forum. (It's from thread 3 of 5 which tells it's age.)

That stuff has most probably already been checked and passed if they're still putting up new information on anomalous thrust.

 

[Abstruse Moose]

So why doesn't someone just build a huge version of the damn thing and see if it moves?

 

[lednerg]

Finally we rebuilt the copper frustum test article so that it is now fully integrated with the RF VCO, PLL, 100W RF amp, dual directional coupler, 3-stub tuner and connecting coax cables, then mounted this integrated test article at the opposite end of the torque pendulum, as far away as possible from the 2nd generation magnetic damper where only the required counterbalance weights now reside.​

I was wondering when they were going to get around to that.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

I thought this was debunked? Did they test that the Em drive works as it should?

 

[Nostremitus]

Hmm... So it's still passing tests... Huh... Is it time to get excited?

 

[Cerium]

That post is at least 3 months old. 5 months if you look at the original post in the nasa forum. (It's from thread 3 of 5 which tells it's age.)

That stuff has most probably already been checked and passed if they're still putting up new information on anomalous thrust.

It would take an entirely new series of tests inside a vacuum to confirm the theory, but the evidence so far supports it. There's no reason to believe they funded those tests and carried them out in 5 months.