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Indie Game Development Discussion Thread | Of Being Professionally Poor
- Thread starter chubigans
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Just be aware that it's not just me, but several people in this thread alone, on one particular forum on the internet.I like chromatic aberration. I don't know what else to tell you. It won't be on all the time, just when it's needed to get the desired effect. It's one more thing in my bag of tricks.
thank youIt's a fair criticism and I was sorta responding to everyone, not just you, was too lazy to go round up quotes. One person rarely changes my mind, but a lot of people saying the same thing will nudge me, and so I am going to be careful to keep it tasteful.
I mean this politely, but you sound like you are leaning in the direction of saying "Trust me, everyone who never objected previously, even to in-progress effects, but are objecting now: I am going to half ignore your advice and go with this anyway". Didn't you do a Kickstarter, in order to use funds from a group of fans to make your game? Is there some way you can poll that same group of fans to see if they like the effect? Otherwise that's a bit of a bait and switch, in my opinion, to effectively tell fans that you know better than they do what they should like.
I mean this SUPER respectfully, and we've talked about this a bunch on IRC: You're color-blind, correct, Makai? It may not affect you precisely the same way it does other people.I like the CA, Jobbs, don't tone it down.
But I would agree with the others that it's best used sparingly - maybe as a critically low health indicator instead of audible beeps?
Woh woh woh, that's pretty crazy, so you're saying I'm supposed to let the backers micromanage the game down to small details like what shader I might use in a given situation? You realize what a mess that'd become, right? You're invoking terms like "bait and switch" on me when all I did was post an example of a shader effect I'm working on, and didn't immediately promise to remove it completely from the game because three people on neogaf didn't like what they saw. First of all, you don't even have the full context of how I plan to use the shader, second of all, it's literally impossible to please everyone. If in the beta phase I got a lot of feedback to remove it totally, then I'd strongly consider removing it totally. But I don't make knee jerk decisions because someone on a forum hates chromatic aberration.
I'm designing a game where I make many decisions about many things, and what effects I use are just part of that. I don't know where this reaction is coming from. did a chromatic aberration run over your dog?
Pretty much. Even worse is when you get it all working, decide you hate the flow, and redo it all over again... and again...
I like chromatic aberration. I don't know what else to tell you. It won't be on all the time, just when it's needed to get the desired effect. It's one more thing in my bag of tricks.
thank you
Unrelated, I just spawned a bunch of sparks and made them bouncy just to see what'd happen. No particular reason.
http://gfycat.com/AlarmingUnnaturalDassie.webm
I for one like CA! It's a cool effect.
I like chromatic aberration. I don't know what else to tell you. It won't be on all the time, just when it's needed to get the desired effect. It's one more thing in my bag of tricks.
thank you
Unrelated, I just spawned a bunch of sparks and made them bouncy just to see what'd happen. No particular reason.
http://gfycat.com/AlarmingUnnaturalDassie.webm
Hmm, I think it's fine if it's only when taking damage, it's not supposed to be pleasant on your eyes.
BUT, I think you need to go further with it, get some good old screen shake in there when you get hit, shake the UI separately, static up the text elements a bit. You know what I mean:
http://youtu.be/j0f_DoxUE_o?t=3m12s
It's that that chromatic abrasion looks terrible, it's that the message of why it's supposed to look terrible isn't getting through.
Edit: Better(ish) quality:
http://youtu.be/Y1g-B8BJzwc?t=40s
Of course not, but I'm talking about the sort of thing that timetokill said:
I suggest that this is not a case of someone trying to micromanage. This is someone/people who rarely if ever criticize your game and art, and are more likely to praise it. And yet, they thought it important enough to state their opinion about something.Jobbs, I don't think any of us have said this about your game before, but that looks awful
That should be cause to reconsider, in my opinion. Is anyone trying to do this to any of your other styles, art choices, gameplay choices, and so forth?
If you think this is unique to me, try reading stuff like threads on Daylight trailers/early looks, or look at comments when people post Payday 2 screens. CA is something which draws strong negative reactions from people. If "visceral" weren't such a bad word, I would say it draws immediate VISCERAL reactions.
BomberMouse
Member
@Jobbs, I like the effect and I trust you know what you are doing. Can't please everyone, make the game you want to make.
As others have already said, I think it's a bit distracting. Maybe you could use the effect sparingly? For example, for when the player's health level is extremely low or for a "poisoned" area or something.
Jobbs: your game will remain awesome either way, but honestly, my eyes and head feel *very* weird after looking at the chromatic aberration examples. I feel like when I woke up in the middle of the night and not fully in control of my senses yet. That is not a feeling I want to replicate in my neutral state
So if anything, I think you should have an optional disable filter for those that actually find it a little bit more than distracting. Just like 3D effect can be optional, but rarely forced (I avoid that as welll...).
So if anything, I think you should have an optional disable filter for those that actually find it a little bit more than distracting. Just like 3D effect can be optional, but rarely forced (I avoid that as welll...).
anonymous_abc
Member
been a while since I've posted in this thread, so here's some misc new-ish screenshots of Modulate
That System Shock Vibe!
Of course not, but I'm talking about the sort of thing that timetokill said:
I suggest that this is not a case of someone trying to micromanage. This is someone/people who rarely if ever criticize your game and art, and are more likely to praise it. And yet, they thought it important enough to state their opinion about something.
That should be cause to reconsider, in my opinion. Is anyone trying to do this to any of your other styles, art choices, gameplay choices, and so forth?
If you think this is unique to me, try reading stuff like threads on Daylight trailers/early looks, or look at comments when people post Payday 2 screens. CA is something which draws strong negative reactions from people. If "visceral" weren't such a bad word, I would say it draws immediate VISCERAL reactions.
I already said its primary use is taking a lot of damage or certain hazards/story specific. Like, I've said that already, before you ever started accusing me of all kinds of stuff. You seem to think I plan to turn it on and leave it on, which was never the plan at any point, like, ever. It's contextual.
Maybe read and comprehend things I've said before accusing me of baiting and switching my backers? (which, btw, is a pretty extreme accusation to make based on the proposed use of a shader, regardless of the circumstance)
I mean it as a warning, not that you're dead set on something. I did see your explanation, but I felt that the explanation came across as somewhat dismissive of what I saw as people's valid complaints.
I have said my piece on it, and I would like to think I would not attempt to warn you about the reactions people may have if I did not consider it something important. I did so in good faith, and realizing you might get upset. I will leave it at that. I understand it may end up being a rare effect and not bother people, and if so, maybe it will be fine.
Think about what I've already said: I've already said it would be used contextually and sparingly, and I've already said I am open to changing or removing it based on feedback during the beta phase. I already said all that. What about all of that is unreasonable? And even after all that you continued to accuse me of weird shit. Me getting upset isn't because I'm a volatile volcano, it's because the way you're acting is bizarre. Accusing someone of baiting and switching their backers (over the use of a shader, no less? what?) is a pretty harsh accusation to make, you shouldn't do shit like that lightly.
You seem to also misunderstand the perimeters of Kickstarter. They [my backers] backed the project so I could make it according to my vision -- There was never a promise or expectation that every feature in the game down to the use of special effects and shaders would be run by them for a vote. The mere logistics of that make it an asinine idea. A crowd can fund a game, which is much appreciated, but they can't really micromanage one. There has to be one vision, sink or swim, and since it's my reputation tied up in this game I need to make the decisions for myself. Feedback is always listened to, and it's taken in the context that it was given. When you're making a game like this you hear a lot of different voices over the course of the endeavor. You can't chase every single one.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
As someone who really dislikes CA as an effect but didn't want to say anything because, well fuck, the whole point of going indie is you get to do what you want to do what you want and don't need to focus group it, I'll tell you why I dislike CA as an effect.
1) It's the new hotness. You see it everywhere. It's this gens bloom effect.
Now whether or not something being super-trendy and overdone bothers you or not, it will date your game to a specific time period at a glance.
2) It's designed to emulate a shitty cheap digital camera.
Are you trying to imply that your game is being 'filmed' by someone using a shitty cheap digital camera?
If not, why do you want this effect?
This also applies to lens-flare effects, which I also dislike, and other 'your screen is a camera not a viewpoint' effects.
My eyes aren't a cheap digital camera
As I said, the entire point of being an indie is you do what you want and everyone else can fuck off, but for every art director who wants CA, or a piss-filter colour correction post processing effect, or lens flare, or bloom, there are people who find the effect obnoxious and immersion breaking.
This is good feedback, I'm aware that it's somewhat "trendy" lately. For me, the use of it is textural -- it has a feel, and for me, that feel is technology being stressed or broken. That is sort of the raw sensation I get when I see it. It also feels metallic. That's why I think it's a good match for a cybernetic suit being strained by a hazardous environment, taking heavy damage, or being stressed by the use of a power.
Yeah, exactly, so I say go all the way with it. I do feel like it needs to end quickly, though, instead of fading back to normal. I think that's the part that's really messing with people.
Quite right, and I've already made like 18 revisions to the shader's values since first posting the test image. Game development is very fluid.
Quite right, and I've already made like 18 revisions to the shader's values since first posting the test image. Game development is very fluid.
Heh, I know the feeling. Can't wait to see more!
AcceptableGhost
Member
Oh man this is some painful stuff.
hitsugi
Member
This is spot on. Jobbs already said he wasn't just going to leave it on the whole time. Extremely limited use, if at all, would be best for this effect. I think a longer video demonstrating some more scenarios would help illustrate your points, Jobbs. Your art and style direction has been great all the way, so I trust whatever you want to do. As others have said, it is your game after all.
Well said. However, feedback is always appreciated (it's why we post in this thread in the first place), and it's obvious people really care about Ghost Song. I have confidence that Jobbs will continue to make the game magnificent.
Should probably only be more pronounced at the edges of the screen and let the center focal area remain fully focused; that would probably solve a lot of headache issues that people are having here. Even if it's used sparingly in it's current state, it's almost an instant headache.
Although if people think that is bad, they should have seen the stereoscopic work I had to do back when I did some film work at DD. I left there with a pounding headache constantly that lasted all day; you can really fuck up people's eyes with that stuff, sometimes to the point where I was worried to drive home.
I'm placing my bet on lens dirt as the next effect to be added.
Have a new update out for my game Last Knight, it features big additions to the world generation, new dieing, new jousting rewards, many new achievements and more. Here is the full news:
http://steamcommunity.com/games/262210/announcements/detail/1262444873044450721
Some fresh eye candy:
http://steamcommunity.com/games/262210/announcements/detail/1262444873044450721
Some fresh eye candy:
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Somewhat unrelated to the issue at hand, I honestly don't mind CA, but what I do mind is something else being touched on here, which is the "dirty glass" effect.
THAT is more the "next-gen lens flare" to me than CA is, and I really hate it. It was cool in one game (Battlefield 3) but it's turning up in EVERYTHING now.
Thaumaturgic Tomato
Member
I am not well education on mega textures (that seems to be the most popular name over sparse, etc.)
Why NOT use mega texturing? (In an open world game)
What are the negatives?
I'm fiddling around with an open world in Unity and recently new to UE4. From what I read about a particular mega texture asset/tool available for Unity, it seems like a good option. I'm sure there is a catch? Because I don't hear hardly anything about mega outside of the idTech engine.
Perhaps it comes down to "Just depends on the engine."
I know a lot of idTech complaints are about mega textures. Beyond that, I don't hear much about games using mega textures but I don't know why.
So, for a PC game, in this era of gigs and gigs of ram and vram available, why NOT use mega textures? And what would be worse if the same game were restricted to current console specs? Do they cause more pop-in, load times?
TLDR: Why NOT use mega textures?
Why NOT use mega texturing? (In an open world game)
What are the negatives?
I'm fiddling around with an open world in Unity and recently new to UE4. From what I read about a particular mega texture asset/tool available for Unity, it seems like a good option. I'm sure there is a catch? Because I don't hear hardly anything about mega outside of the idTech engine.
Perhaps it comes down to "Just depends on the engine."
I know a lot of idTech complaints are about mega textures. Beyond that, I don't hear much about games using mega textures but I don't know why.
So, for a PC game, in this era of gigs and gigs of ram and vram available, why NOT use mega textures? And what would be worse if the same game were restricted to current console specs? Do they cause more pop-in, load times?
TLDR: Why NOT use mega textures?
Oh my yes; when I saw the UE4 logo come up with lens dirt and anamorphic lens flares, I immediately realized that that will likely be the defining effect during this console generation.
I guess I can finally join this thread now?
Just got UE4 a few days ago and so far I'm in love with the tools compared to Unity, sadly i only know very basic programming but I have a group helping and I'm going back to school for IT so hopefully I will actually learn something that will help lol
Anyways first game I'm starting on is an Arena FPS with a big emphasis on weapon balance and player movement via a mechanic I'm calling Dash (also the game name) where you get 3 bursts of speed in any direction your moving every 30 sec(also double jumps) and you need to combo these together to out manuver your enemy while also trying to out shoot them.
I hope I can get the movement system in soon so I can start taking in-progress videos
Just got UE4 a few days ago and so far I'm in love with the tools compared to Unity, sadly i only know very basic programming but I have a group helping and I'm going back to school for IT so hopefully I will actually learn something that will help lol
Anyways first game I'm starting on is an Arena FPS with a big emphasis on weapon balance and player movement via a mechanic I'm calling Dash (also the game name) where you get 3 bursts of speed in any direction your moving every 30 sec(also double jumps) and you need to combo these together to out manuver your enemy while also trying to out shoot them.
I hope I can get the movement system in soon so I can start taking in-progress videos
are remarks like this really necessary? I get that some of you hate chromatic aberration, even if you have no idea yet how I actually plan to use it. Doesn't mean you have to get snarky and try to belittle me. I would never make a demeaning comment about someone or their game because I didn't like a filter or effect they used, especially not in a dev thread.
If you think I'm some kind of bumbling idiot, then just don't buy the game and leave it there.
Hello everyone,
I'm thrilled to announce that my game is finally finished. I hope you'll enjoy it!
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Download link: http://gamejolt.com/games/arcade/arcade-ace/27500/
Story:
Today is an exciting day, because an arcade has just opened its doors in your town!
Being the video game enthusiast that you are, you can't wait to spend some time there!
Unfortunately, your wallet is completely empty, so you'll have to find a way to earn some coins first!
Good luck!
Features:
- A whole town to explore
- Lots of characters to interact with
- Over twenty minigames
Screenshots:
I'm thrilled to announce that my game is finally finished. I hope you'll enjoy it!
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!
Download link: http://gamejolt.com/games/arcade/arcade-ace/27500/
Story:
Today is an exciting day, because an arcade has just opened its doors in your town!
Being the video game enthusiast that you are, you can't wait to spend some time there!
Unfortunately, your wallet is completely empty, so you'll have to find a way to earn some coins first!
Good luck!
Features:
- A whole town to explore
- Lots of characters to interact with
- Over twenty minigames
Screenshots:
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
I hope you didn't take my comments about it personally - I was really in 2 minds to say anything at all, because I absolutely believe the whole point of doing indie stuff is that you don't have to listen to anyone except your self - but I hoped explaining my personal taste preference would give you some insight into why it can be more divisive than other shader effects as food for thought.
If you like it, you run with it how you see fit - that's entirely your prerogative, and my apologies if I offended you.
I liked your comment, that's no problem at all. If someone honestly doesn't like something that I posted, then absolutely tell me. But this thread -- or any thread, in my opinion, isn't the proper venue to make personal attacks and insinuations against other creators just because of a special effect they plan to use.
For whatever reason, I think my game has crossed over into some kind of area where it's attracting negativity, and maybe it's best I didn't post my stuff here and interrupt everyone's day while I get bashed and spend bandwidth on back and forths. I'll still post gifs and stuff to twitter and the stencyl forums, to those who are interested.
AcceptableGhost
Member
I don't post often in this thread because it is usually just Unity chest beating or is a positivity echo chamber with the same people posting, both of which are not very interesting to me. The idea that someone would bow out of a thread due to getting negative comments about Chromatic Aberration pretty much just reinforces my feelings. I agree that personal attacks are too much but pretty much ANY degree of negativity in this thread or threads like it (games by small teams / single person) ends up with people posting in succession seemingly to defend the creator(s) of the game from something that isn't an attack (because there is a name / face attached to the game, it is viewed as more personal - especially when the creator is on GAF).
Nah, that's not the case. As I said, I am 100% okay with honest feedback about what I post, negative or positive. The problem is with how personal and ad hominem things have gotten.
I grew thick skin during my comic and webcomic years before I ever got into games and I have no problem with criticism or people not liking something, and I would never bow out because of it. The problem is tone. I can take getting beaten up and belittled, but I just don't see it as productive and it's also distracting from other people who are trying to talk about other games.
Before this, has there been even one occasion on GAF where a group of people have been vocal in expressing warnings or concerns about a specific aspect of your game?
If there has, I would like to know what, because I missed it. If there HASN'T, then I think that is food for thought, and you might want to consider that maybe people meant their posts as something other than ad hominem. Why would a bunch of well-meaning people post ad hominem out of the blue?
He doesn't have a problem with people saying they don't like the effect. His problem was with you getting hyperbolic and saying he was "baiting and switching" his backers. One is an opinion about the art, the other an opinion about the artist.
I think you need to consider your post that started this rather than to keep digging in. The conversation was civil until then.
Yay, we can finally emulate what dirty glasses look like on a sunny day.
I realize you dislike me, but it's not a snarky remark. If you're going for lens effects like CA and film grain, then other lens effects are fair game to be included along with it.
I'm sure you've noticed that I've used a lens dirt effect on some of my assets even; lens dirt is a nice effect, just don't overuse it like that Battlefield 3 screen, lol.
You don't have to jump at me; calm down.
Dude, I don't dislike you, I don't even really know who you are. But read what you actually said again and stop trolling.
Like, my patience for this is reaching its limit, I really have to just get out of this thread before it becomes more disruptive.
I actually just posted about this on the last page: basically, less than fifty percent of hardware users at the moment have discrete graphics solutions that support megatextures. Because of the vast possible differences in memory usage between those systems supporting megatextures and those not, it becomes very risky using them...if you make a huge world and use megatextures, the amount of memory space you'd need to hold all of that on older machines becomes insane.
It's okay in OpenGL. It's way worse in DirectX, because you need DX11.2, which also requires Windows 8.1, an OS that gamers have not nor likely ever will take to.
I read it again. I said that you need to tone down the CA effect, possibly by limiting it to a vignette area of the screen so it doesn't hurt the player's eyes if they stare directly at it (plus I think colors fringe more on the edges of a lens). Then I said that I bet the next effect you add will be lens dirt. I don't see anything offensive about that; do you just abhor lens dirt?
No, you're being a smartass. You're making a belittling comment. "Heh, I bet lens dirt is the next thing he adds" Why would you say that? What indication have I given that I'm adding lens dirt? You're trolling, and I don't get what I did to deserve it.
Teknopathetic
Member
You know exactly what you're doing, RawNuts, don't play dumb.
Just move on. I don't think there's anything substantial left to say about this topic.
Just move on. I don't think there's anything substantial left to say about this topic.
What the hell?
I guess tone doesn't come through text too well; I'll just shut up then. :/
I don't wish to keep talking on this, and I am happy to take it to PM if anyone wishes for clarification about my posts. Since you mention it in the thread however:
I thought that what I said was civil and polite while trying to express a warning about a possible situation. I even clarified in the very same sentence that it was my opinion, about a specific interpretation/feeling that I got from Jobb's response. It was a gut reaction/feeling about the direction Jobbs might be heading, which was why I wanted to speak up.
You do not seem to have commented about my point, which was as follows:
*edit* If I understand correctly the answer to this is no, which means either backlash is due to Jobbs' game getting bigger (someone else suggested this to me), or because such this particular effect really is something that people strongly dislike.
That is the point I am trying to emphasize -- regardless of whether various posts come across as rude. Either a group has reacted like this, or a group hasn't, in which case this situation is unique. I certainly apologize if I was rude, and I have repeatedly and verbosely tried to indicate everything I said as personal opinion, attempting to be respectful. If I have failed in that, I can do no more than apologize. I have PM'd a moderator asking about it.
BlastProcessing
Member
It's getting a little hot in here. Here is an adorable puppy.
This seems like a good time to say that I have found this thread to be a valuable resource of information, inspiration and positivity.
This seems like a good time to say that I have found this thread to be a valuable resource of information, inspiration and positivity.
Today many developers/artists use the same tools, engines, or frameworks.
Hence, and that's no secret, they will come up with similar results over time.
So it's clear then that once such effects like CA, dirty lenses etc. are
available in a framework, they will get used for whatever reason. Seeing such
effects on many different games then generates sort of a similarity in the
player's mind that may trigger him/her to see the same game over and over
again despite the games' content being different. Due to the overuse (copying)
of CA, games using it indeed have sort of a stigma independent of whether the
effect is useful or not. So even if the effect is useful, one should consider
if the effect isn't overused in other games to not equalize (sort of) the
appeal of ones very own game with the many others. Metaphorically speaking;
Games using CA may alias as Battlefield!
I like CA as well, but I wouldn't use it the way it is used today because of
the reason given above. On the contrary, I would try to come up with some
modified or some new effects altogether, effects that are perhaps unique to my
game. This would also give me the chance to tell my game apart to a greater
extend. Metaphorically speaking; I would apply sort of an anti-aliasing filter
to some of the effects to not get aliased as those effects overused in other
games.
Hence, and that's no secret, they will come up with similar results over time.
So it's clear then that once such effects like CA, dirty lenses etc. are
available in a framework, they will get used for whatever reason. Seeing such
effects on many different games then generates sort of a similarity in the
player's mind that may trigger him/her to see the same game over and over
again despite the games' content being different. Due to the overuse (copying)
of CA, games using it indeed have sort of a stigma independent of whether the
effect is useful or not. So even if the effect is useful, one should consider
if the effect isn't overused in other games to not equalize (sort of) the
appeal of ones very own game with the many others. Metaphorically speaking;
Games using CA may alias as Battlefield!
I like CA as well, but I wouldn't use it the way it is used today because of
the reason given above. On the contrary, I would try to come up with some
modified or some new effects altogether, effects that are perhaps unique to my
game. This would also give me the chance to tell my game apart to a greater
extend. Metaphorically speaking; I would apply sort of an anti-aliasing filter
to some of the effects to not get aliased as those effects overused in other
games.
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