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Indie Game Development Discussion Thread | Of Being Professionally Poor

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signed up to be a registered PS developer for the unity pro license. i honestly need to dedicate 2015 to this. i tried this year but man, things just stopped me and i procrastinated so hard lol. i'm in it for vita. hopefully it doesn't die soon (lol)
 

Bedlam

Member
I just have to quote this and say, this was one of the most important lessons I've learned in good game design. Do NOT design your levels and then "add in enemies later". This makes terrible level design, but its a common mistake both in indie and industry games and is often the reason behind a game that seems to have cool mechanics being either boring or frustrating to actually play through.

Design your enemies, and then design your levels specifically to make use of them. When you go to design your levels, think about each enemy and what kinds of terrain could make facing that enemy harder or easier. Introduce the enemy the first time with terrain that makes it fairly easy to defeat so the player can figure out how the enemy works. Then, place that enemy in a different terrain set-up that makes it much more difficult to deal with. Finally, combine multiple enemies together that complement each other, and then combine those with unique terrain, and suddenly you have levels that are interesting and fun to play through.

If you design levels first and put enemies in them later, you'll invariably end up with levels that were fun to jump around in but just became frustrating to play in the final game. For example you will often leave a big area in your level thinking "I'll put some enemies into this area later" and end up that either the area is too small to properly fight the enemies, or that that part of the level is boring because its just fighting enemies without any interesting terrain to make the fight unique, so it just becomes a slog to get through.

My previous studio had more than one game ruined by doing this - fun mechanics, fun levels to run around in, but the game overall flopped because the enemies were either pointless mindless obstacles you felt you had to "grind" through or were frustrating and ruined the fun of the platforming.

This was one of the main concepts going through my head at all times in Volgarr the Viking's level designs once I had seen first-hand what a difference it makes. I designed the levels based on my enemies, and had ALL the enemies a level would make use of 100% functional before doing the actual level layout. Also while designing the enemies, I tried to use designs that would make dealing with the enemy change depending on what terrain was around them to give myself plenty of options to mix things up later. If you play Volgarr I'm sure you'll see what I mean. Some sections were designed purely for platforming fun without consideration of enemies, but of course for those sections I left out enemies entirely so as to not risk ruining that section with enemy interference.
I bookmarked this post because I think I'm about to fall into that trap. Thanks for the advice. ;)
 
Worked on the visuals a bit more! Some subtle film grain in there now and scrolling mist!

jVE7ww1.jpg
 

gngf123

Member
Nothing major from me, just getting back into things again after being focused on other work for a while. Finished my report writing last week so I've finally got time to do things again. I'm surprised how many things I've forgotten.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCyDVky7Qns

I would recommend putting it straight up to 1080p full screen.

Next up I need to add waypoints. Then maybe I can attempt some basic AI, really not sure about implementing that. Also need to smooth the camera a tiny bit, but that shouldn't be hard.

EDIT:

Changed how vertex opacity was calculated, now prioritizing vertices close to the camera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWM4elGmI_g
 

_machine

Member
Worked on the visuals a bit more! Some subtle film grain in there now and scrolling mist!
The compression masks it pretty well so it's hard to say whether it looks better or not, but I was gonna say that just a bit of film grain might suit your game :)

I've been super quiet these past 3 months (not that I'm that active anyway, even though I really should be more active here), but working/studuying in Singapore was a great experience as I got my first real foray on console development working on the PS4 and all in all it was a fantastic learning experience even if the project itself was far from perfect. Unfortunately I can't really show that much of it just yet as they're still continuing working on it and I heard that they want to get a publisher involved.

But now, back in Finland and it feels good to be back developing with my talented friends, who right away snatched me to their summer project which we are now taking further alongside a smaller mobile project, which I'll talk a bit more when were past first prototyping phase. Going back to mobile has been nice change even though we're using a custom C++ engine for the game and I'm really excited about the idea we have.

So the big thing we are working on is a game called Ancestory, which is a a turn-based tactical card game with the added element of grid-based environment and it's for PC. It's powered by Unreal Engine 4 and the rough version we hold at the moment was done in just 2 months.
I'll be sharing more on it when I just find the time to write a bit more about the design of the game and how we're gonna be taking it forward in the future.

Feel free to check us out on IndieDB or Twitter
 
Don't think about pulling mechanics, pull structure. Learn from games like Mega Man not so much about the enemies, but how they fit into a level scheme in terms of difficulty and pacing.

It is extremely difficult to design enemies when you have a level fully set up because now you are thinking about how to design enemies that fit into a level vs designing an enemy and its AI routines and subs and creating a level based on those enemies and how to craft level structure to apply appropriate challenge to the player. For STRAFE, I went into level design with enemies finished so I knew the pacing I was going for and the best way to utilize level structure to create an appropriate challenge.

Of course, early levels are often considered introductory so they don't necessarily have to have that kind of complexity and tie-in, but later levels will be almost impossible to create geometry first and AI second and have level appropriate challenge and pacing.

Just my .02.

Just quoting this again. This is very good advice.

Always design the enemies / objects first prior to actually making the level layout.
 

Pehesse

Member
looking good -- I am curious what posessed you to take on such a task as this? you couldn't pay me enoguh money to make a fighting game on my own. so many frames per character to draw and layers of programming that when imagined make my head spin (though it's not hard to make my head spin since i'm not much of a programmer).

Well, as I said before, I wanted to gain experience in 2D animation, and I had a number of projects which fit the bill at the time, but the one I wanted to try my hand at most was this one since I had been discussing/concept art-ing it with a friend. I knew it was going to be hard going in, but you learn more by challenging yourself, I suppose :-D As for the amount of 2D frames, actually that was one of the main draw points. I wanted to do something on a 2D plane with only 2 axis of movement, and the alternative I was interested in was to do a platformer/metroidvania, but, well.. There are other more interesting games out there doing just that :p

At first I wasn't sure the project was really going to get anywhere beyond simple prototyping and a few animations, but I found it really had potential and I wanted to try pushing it further... and now, here we are. There's still a long way to go of course, and there are many different things that differentiate it from a "true" 2D fighter (such as the balance on frame/hits: since there is no 2 player mode, it's absolutely not the same kind of balance where each player needs to have an equal chance, and it's a lot closer to a beat'em all balance where boss characters have wide range of moves but are still ultimately meant to be overcome. The use of stats also make the whole thing a completely different beast, since the same fight can play out many different ways depending on your/the opponents stats). Which is ultimately why I mainly refer to it as a cross between a visual novel and a 2D beat'em up, rather than straight up fighting game :)

And I'll admit I don't think I fully understood when I started what it'd take in terms of scripting :-D Still, it's come some way since then and I've got a firmer grasp on things :-D

Never posted in this sub but am always a keen lurker to see what you guys are up to.

I had this idea last night and was wondering if you guys could criticise it for me?

I used to write a lot, about video games and music. I wasn't too bad at it but I eventually got sick of providing the same content that a million other people did. As I wasn't a professional, I didn't have the money to constantly buy game releases or have the time to review them. Additionally, I always wanted to provide content that was a little different to other places.

So, I was thinking what if every couple of weeks one of you guys let me interview/profile you? I could write up an article/profile of you/your upcoming game/how things are going/inspirations etc. It could provide a concise and honest look into your time with developing the games and it could be shared with other Indie developers/fans/anyone? The only problem is, I wouldn't really be able to provide much exposure as I'd start things from scratch.

What do you guys think?
Feel free to chase me out of town.

Well, after saying all of the above, it wouldn't be right for me to chase you out of town - I'll confirm instead that I think it's a lovely idea :-D
 

DocSeuss

Member
Anyone else hoping to try to participate in 7DFPS when it happens?

I just have to quote this and say, this was one of the most important lessons I've learned in good game design. Do NOT design your levels and then "add in enemies later". This makes terrible level design, but its a common mistake both in indie and industry games and is often the reason behind a game that seems to have cool mechanics being either boring or frustrating to actually play through.

Design your enemies, and then design your levels specifically to make use of them. When you go to design your levels, think about each enemy and what kinds of terrain could make facing that enemy harder or easier. Introduce the enemy the first time with terrain that makes it fairly easy to defeat so the player can figure out how the enemy works. Then, place that enemy in a different terrain set-up that makes it much more difficult to deal with. Finally, combine multiple enemies together that complement each other, and then combine those with unique terrain, and suddenly you have levels that are interesting and fun to play through.

If you design levels first and put enemies in them later, you'll invariably end up with levels that were fun to jump around in but just became frustrating to play in the final game. For example you will often leave a big area in your level thinking "I'll put some enemies into this area later" and end up that either the area is too small to properly fight the enemies, or that that part of the level is boring because its just fighting enemies without any interesting terrain to make the fight unique, so it just becomes a slog to get through.

My previous studio had more than one game ruined by doing this - fun mechanics, fun levels to run around in, but the game overall flopped because the enemies were either pointless mindless obstacles you felt you had to "grind" through or were frustrating and ruined the fun of the platforming.

This was one of the main concepts going through my head at all times in Volgarr the Viking's level designs once I had seen first-hand what a difference it makes. I designed the levels based on my enemies, and had ALL the enemies a level would make use of 100% functional before doing the actual level layout. Also while designing the enemies, I tried to use designs that would make dealing with the enemy change depending on what terrain was around them to give myself plenty of options to mix things up later. If you play Volgarr I'm sure you'll see what I mean. Some sections were designed purely for platforming fun without consideration of enemies, but of course for those sections I left out enemies entirely so as to not risk ruining that section with enemy interference.

This is precisely why my current plan is to hit early access with a horde mode setup, so I can tweak and balance the enemies, rather than focus heavily on level design. Once the enemies are to my satisfaction, then I can focus on the campaign.
 

gundalf

Member
Something new, maybe I should make a full game with it?

ilEnMiuYt58Ho.gif

A lot of Time has passed and my project is finally getting some shape!
I am happy to finally show a small glimpse of what i am working on:

(WiiU build)
ibewt7Q9BqdhTC.gif


This will be a Jump `n Run inspired by Kirby and with a Mario 64 style Hub World.
Sadly i am at the point where my Scripting Skills are not good enough to make a juicy Character Controller or Enemy AI, etc.
So if here is someone who is experienced in this stuff and know Unity, then please contact me via PM if you are interested in partnering up with me :)
 

Davision

Neo Member
A lot of Time has passed and my project is finally getting some shape!
I am happy to finally show a small glimpse of what i am working on:

(WiiU build)
ibewt7Q9BqdhTC.gif


This will be a Jump `n Run inspired by Kirby and with a Mario 64 style Hub World.
Sadly i am at the point where my Scripting Skills are not good enough to make a juicy Character Controller or Enemy AI, etc.
So if here is someone who is experienced in this stuff and know Unity, then please contact me via PM if you are interested in partnering up with me :)
There is nothing left of the old version it seems, looks great though! Any bigger screenshots you can share?
 

Jobbs

Banned
Ok so I need a good trailer cutter guy for psyscrolr. FEEP HOOK ME UP

just curious, why'd you name it that? every time I try to think of your game I can only get an image of the kid in the scarf, I can't conjure the name. it's a hard name to remember.
 

kiguel182

Member
Well, I'm almost finished with my first game project. I'm waiting for some art assets and then it's time to publish.

It's just a simple game to learn Unity, make something and work with a friend but I'm damn proud of it. Learned a lot in the process too. Even if no one likes it or downloads it I still call it a victory.

Can't share any thing right now since my partner isn't fond of the idea but I'll show it once it's finished and ready to launch. It doesn't compare to most stuff shown here but still, it doesn't hurt to share.

(just wanted to share my joy and I felt this is a good place to do so)
 

gngf123

Member
Well, I'm almost finished with my first game project. I'm waiting for some art assets and then it's time to publish.

It's just a simple game to learn Unity, make something and work with a friend but I'm damn proud of it. Learned a lot in the process too. Even if no one likes it or downloads it I still call it a victory.

Can't share any thing right now since my partner isn't fond of the idea but I'll show it once it's finished and ready to launch. It doesn't compare to most stuff shown here but still, it doesn't hurt to share.

(just wanted to share my joy and I felt this is a good place to do so)

Finishing any game, even a small one, is an achievement! Good going dude.

I'm in the process of re-learning Unity I guess. Just got back and trying to remember how I used to do things and how all the new stuff works. The new UI system seems pretty good.
 

Jobbs

Banned
I cut all my own trailers...but if you're willing to shell a few hundred, I could find someone in the area = P

I'm so lazy that I don't edit anything. I did my last two gameplay videos without any editing whatsoever. I just wanted to get the fraps, process it through vdub itno an xvid, and upload to youtue. so even the text that appears at the start and end isn't edited, it's all scripted by the game engine. was faster to do that than it would be to try and edit it with my limited editing experience, not to mention the extra exporting time.

to do a traditional trailer, though, yeah, I'll need to edit it.
 

kiguel182

Member
Finishing any game, even a small one, is an achievement! Good going dude.

I'm in the process of re-learning Unity I guess. Just got back and and trying to remember how I used to do things and how all the new stuff works. The new UI system seems pretty good.

Thanks!

The last couple of weeks have been slower since my friend has gone back to work (we did most of the game on his one week vacation) so I'm really impatient to just have this on the Play store and hope that it doesn't have any nasty bugs that I haven't taken care off.

I only tackled the basics of Unity and I really liked it. Didn't had any major issues except for some sound problems and figuring out a good way to organize everything so I wouldn't get lost in all the scripts and stuff.

Finishing fucking anything is an achievement on it's own.

Even a simple game like mine it feels great. Finishing it's a reward in and out of itself. Hopefully more people will like it, but I'll be happy just seeing it done.
 
Another alternate skin for VizionEck.




Also I've decided to announce the delay as part of a huge media blowout. New trailer, plus lots of extended looks at other parts of the game. I also really need to make a simple to understand gameplay explanation video. Will definitely be sharing that one here for feedback beforehand. Unique game mechanics are a double edged sword hahaha.
 

kiguel182

Member
I'm so lazy that I don't edit anything. I did my last two gameplay videos without any editing whatsoever. I just wanted to get the fraps, process it through vdub itno an xvid, and upload to youtue. so even the text that appears at the start and end isn't edited, it's all scripted by the game engine. was faster to do that than it would be to try and edit it with my limited editing experience, not to mention the extra exporting time.

to do a traditional trailer, though, yeah, I'll need to edit it.

When do you need it done?

I have some editing experience and I could give it a try if you don't find anyone better!
 

Popstar

Member
NeoGFY extension ready for testing!

If you haven't been following along the last couple days, I've created an browser extension that replaces GIFs hosted on gfycat (URLs in the format http://giant.gfycat.com/AdjectiveAdjectiveAnimal.gif) with proper video embeds. There are currently versions for Safari and Google Chrome. I'll create a Firefox one next.

You can download them here.
NeoGFY Chrome Extension
NeoGFY Safari Extension

Source code repository is here: https://github.com/Ludophonic/NeoGFY

Give them a try.
 

Granadier

Is currently on Stage 1: Denial regarding the service game future
NeoGFY extension ready for testing!

If you haven't been following along the last couple days, I've created an browser extension that replaces GIFs hosted on gfycat (URLs in the format http://giant.gfycat.com/AdjectiveAdjectiveAnimal.gif) with proper video embeds. There are currently versions for Safari and Google Chrome. I'll create a Firefox one next.

You can download them here.
NeoGFY Chrome Extension
NeoGFY Safari Extension

Source code repository is here: https://github.com/Ludophonic/NeoGFY

Give them a try.

Do you just surround the gfycat with tags to get this extension to work properly or what?

edit, nope
 

Popstar

Member
Do you just surround the gfycat with tags to get this extension to work properly or what?

edit, nope[/QUOTE]Just use the bbcode for the gif version from gfycat as if this extension didn't exist.

[i]It doesn't work like the webm thing.[/i] It changes directly embedded GIFs from gfycat into video embeds. Try loading the previous few pages of this thread to see it working.
 

Kritz

Banned
I guess PewDiePie did a video of my game? Which is why my server stopped working, I suppose. Man I should really try and take advantage of this.
 
Sometimes I can't tell if level design is fun or tedious. Almost done with some major areas of this one area though, which is cool because I'm sick of working on it. Then it's music which will be fun because I'm nto so good at music but my bro doens't have time for that. GLORY GLORY I'm tired.

Does anyone have tips for raising awareness through twitter and facebook and whatnot. I'm not ready to show anything yet but I want to be ready for when I am?
Also this.
 

Five

Banned
I guess PewDiePie did a video of my game? Which is why my server stopped working, I suppose. Man I should really try and take advantage of this.

Unless you can immediately capitalize on it, I'd lay low and wait until you have a huge update to go public again. What seems huge to devs often just seems incremental to viewers and consumers. It needs to be something where people are like "Remember that Burger Citizen Kane game? It's back and better than ever! Check out this crazy update. Oh, and also it has a Kickstarter for even more shenanigans too!"

Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope others can speak into it too, but that's what it seems like to me.
 
I just have to quote this and say, this was one of the most important lessons I've learned in good game design. Do NOT design your levels and then "add in enemies later". This makes terrible level design, but its a common mistake both in indie and industry games and is often the reason behind a game that seems to have cool mechanics being either boring or frustrating to actually play through.

Design your enemies, and then design your levels specifically to make use of them. When you go to design your levels, think about each enemy and what kinds of terrain could make facing that enemy harder or easier. Introduce the enemy the first time with terrain that makes it fairly easy to defeat so the player can figure out how the enemy works. Then, place that enemy in a different terrain set-up that makes it much more difficult to deal with. Finally, combine multiple enemies together that complement each other, and then combine those with unique terrain, and suddenly you have levels that are interesting and fun to play through.

If you design levels first and put enemies in them later, you'll invariably end up with levels that were fun to jump around in but just became frustrating to play in the final game. For example you will often leave a big area in your level thinking "I'll put some enemies into this area later" and end up that either the area is too small to properly fight the enemies, or that that part of the level is boring because its just fighting enemies without any interesting terrain to make the fight unique, so it just becomes a slog to get through.

My previous studio had more than one game ruined by doing this - fun mechanics, fun levels to run around in, but the game overall flopped because the enemies were either pointless mindless obstacles you felt you had to "grind" through or were frustrating and ruined the fun of the platforming.

This was one of the main concepts going through my head at all times in Volgarr the Viking's level designs once I had seen first-hand what a difference it makes. I designed the levels based on my enemies, and had ALL the enemies a level would make use of 100% functional before doing the actual level layout. Also while designing the enemies, I tried to use designs that would make dealing with the enemy change depending on what terrain was around them to give myself plenty of options to mix things up later. If you play Volgarr I'm sure you'll see what I mean. Some sections were designed purely for platforming fun without consideration of enemies, but of course for those sections I left out enemies entirely so as to not risk ruining that section with enemy interference.

This should be added to the OP as "Words of Wisdom for all indie developers".

One of the reasons why I worked on mechanics and enemies before making any levels.
 

WildFactor

Neo Member
Hello people on neogaf, we need your help.
We were ready to order 50 t-shirts for a convention and we were asking about our design to our friends. One of them in Canada said that our game name was hard to pronounce in English (we are not English). So before being broke with a pill of t-shirt with a bad game name, we try to get opinions of english speakers :)

Our game will be an evil mansion management game, where you get to build your mansion, order your creatures around and kill intruders. But you still have to follow the horror movie killing rules (kill them one by one, do NOT kill the dog, etc) We've been told the title we used for the Ludum Dare ("The Villain's Rules") doesn't sound "right" in english ? and now we can't decide between those other options:
Cruel Rules
Rules of Villainy
How to be a good villain
Machiavillain
Or any other suggestions
 

Five

Banned
My PC has been in the shop for about a month, which sucks because I'm a GameMaker user. But I'm making the most of it.

I went to camp for a week right at the same time that my computer crapped out, funny enough. Time away from hands-on dev led to a lot of introspective looking into the game I'm making. So some of the earlier design decisions I made (like only one weapon the whole game, no upgrades, et cetera) have been revised. I also took a fresh coat of paint to the whole thing. No in-game screens, but here's some of the art I've been working on.

Some of you may have noticed that my avatar is slightly different from before. This is how the protagonist looks now:
Screen-Shot-2014-09-22-at-5.34.06-PM.png


Also, here's some of the decoration artwork for the beginning stage. It's just a huge render from Illustrator, not a texture page, but it helps give an idea:

The name is different now, too. It used to be Belfry Devisee, which means someone who inherits a Belfry. The story of the game is different now, so the title had to be changed too. The leading idea currently is Nether Mind, although I'm very open to feedback on that front. Here's a rough draft of the title logo:
Screen-Shot-2014-09-22-at-8.42.01-PM.png


In other news, I've been working with Sadsic for a soundtrack for the game. That makes it sound like I've made a major contribution, but I haven't. It's been all him. He's been amazingly productive, putting out something like seventeen tracks so far. A couple of my favorites:

Looping Franz
Child's Deft

I think he may be looking for more work soon, so don't be afraid to hit him up.
 

Jobbs

Banned
Ok so I need a good trailer cutter guy for psyscrolr. FEEP HOOK ME UP

this isn't directly related to the above quote, but I was just sorta thinking about C2 (I'm on the list and get their updates in my email all the time) and I was reflecting on how you are making this game in C2 and you are on Wii U -- it's no secret that C2 advertises Wii U support, I find myself extremely curious about how well this actually works in practice. Can you basically just make the game in C2 and it'll work on Wii U, or are there a list of no no's, or is it more like a high wire act where you're never quite sure if anything's going to be right until you test on Wii U?
 

taku

Member
this isn't directly related to the above quote, but I was just sorta thinking about C2 (I'm on the list and get their updates in my email all the time) and I was reflecting on how you are making this game in C2 and you are on Wii U -- it's no secret that C2 advertises Wii U support, I find myself extremely curious about how well this actually works in practice. Can you basically just make the game in C2 and it'll work on Wii U, or are there a list of no no's, or is it more like a high wire act where you're never quite sure if anything's going to be right until you test on Wii U?
This is hard to answer without breaking NDA but there are things you really need to keep in mind if you're going to release your C2 game on Wii U.
However, if you do plan to release it on Wii U from the start, it could very well be as easy as you describe it including some inevitable small changes, of course.
 

taku

Member
The name is different now, too. It used to be Belfry Devisee, which means someone who inherits a Belfry. The story of the game is different now, so the title had to be changed too. The leading idea currently is Nether Mind, although I'm very open to feedback on that front. Here's a rough draft of the title logo:
Screen-Shot-2014-09-22-at-8.42.01-PM.png
I think Nether Mind is simpler, which in my book is better.
 

Kritz

Banned
Unless you can immediately capitalize on it, I'd lay low and wait until you have a huge update to go public again. What seems huge to devs often just seems incremental to viewers and consumers. It needs to be something where people are like "Remember that Burger Citizen Kane game? It's back and better than ever! Check out this crazy update. Oh, and also it has a Kickstarter for even more shenanigans too!"

Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope others can speak into it too, but that's what it seems like to me.

I think that's my feeling as well. And even if it wasn't, I'm in my final few weeks of University before I get my degree, so I don't have time to suddenly drop everything and focus on getting this thing up and going.

The plan I've had for the past 6 months has been, wait for university to finish, ramp up the updates while simultaneously looking for a job, and sometime in December launch a kickstarter and see what happens. If nothing comes of the KS, that's fine, it's still decent resume fodder and it's not like I've thrown all my chips into game development.
 

amanset

Member
Finishing fucking anything is an achievement on it's own.

Tell me about it. I seem to be in this permanent cycle:

10 Read this forum.
20 Feel energised.
30 Do a bit more.
40 Real world pressures stop me from doing stuff for a bit.
50 Get down because I haven't done anything for a bit.
60 Feel a bit like a failure.
70 GOTO 10

It probably doesn't help that I can't even decide which fucking engine to use. Unity gets things done quicker, but I can't justify the cost of Pro, leaving a lot of nice things out of my reach. Unreal is C++ (fun) and lets me access everything, but takes a lot longer to do anything. And runs like shit on my Mac, meaning I have to go to my gaming PC to code.

GAH.
 
Thanks. That's my opinion as well. I was going for unique before, but I think I went way too far.

Yeah, sometimes it's best to keep in mind "Keep It Simple, Stupid".


In other news, I found that someone uploaded thousands of raw animation files on the Unity asset store entirely for free, I'm gonna start downloading and looking into them after midnight and grab the ones that I might actually have some use for in terms of placeholders. Some might not work and some might be completely useless, but considering the sheer volume of animations for free, I can't really complain.
 
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