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[faceless007]

I don't think her actions were bad or wrong considering the situation he put her in but I am curious why not first tell him to stop then follow it up with taking it to the internet if any inappropriate behavior continues or if she feels her job has been damaged by turning down the advances of a member of the press.

Many women -- from what I've been told, and this is where empathy comes in -- have learned that actively pushing back against unwanted advances is prone to escalating the situation rather than defusing it. In many cases, there are no good options once they're put in that position other than simply refusing to acknowledge. Add to that the fact that she's looking for a job in the industry, it's a small industry, she doesn't want to burn bridges with an apparently influential journalist, and it's clear why she her preferred course of action was to keep trying to redirect it to professional questions.

 

[everyday math]

Jaffe went on to say that sexual harassment is defined by being undesired, so the fact that she didn't shut it down after the first message means that it's not harassment.

Some people don't know when to zip it.

 

[Coolwhip]

But if he reads the thread how will he cry foul about those yucky social justice warriors who expect basic emotional intelligence and mutual respect?

Maybe you should read his post again before you post that holier than thou stuff.

 

[Sneds]

Didn't Jaffe say something or another that ruffled feathers a couple years ago as well, or am I mistaken? I feel like this isn't the first time.

http://kotaku.com/5883107/does-david-jaffe-really-recommend-his-new-game-as-a-sexual-aid

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Jesus Christ. Does everything have to be made this male/female stuff? How about the dude is just a moron who said moronic things?

"Why do we have to talk about sexism in the industry? It just happens."

 

[JDSN]

Jesus Christ. Does everything have to be made this male/female stuff? How about the dude is just a moron who said moronic things?

Wow, getting some George Zimmerman trial flashbacks.

 

[SanguineShark]

Wow, never expected this from him. Hope you get some help Josh, and I mean that in a genuine manner. Losing someone like that to suicide can mess you up in many ways - not that it excuses his behavior, but he clearly needs to address his issues to better himself as a person and avoid something so embarrassingly stupid like this from happening again. It's terrible for all parties involved.

 

[Riposte]

Jaffe went on to say that sexual harassment is defined by being undesired, so the fact that she didn't shut it down after the first message means that it's not harassment.

That fits with what I've written, I think. He is saying that he didn't commit a crime, but not necessarily he didn't do anything wrong... just less wrong. Of course, it comes off as idiotic and he should really shut up for everyone's sake. To be fair though, Jaffe has been one of those to admit he is wrong later on and that he likes to learn. Maybe that is how this will all turn out. If I'm reading his, and others, intentions though, they are only doing harm (least of all to his image).

I don't think her actions were bad or wrong considering the situation he put her in but I am curious why not first tell him to stop then follow it up with taking it to the internet if any inappropriate behavior continues or if she feels her job has been damaged by turning down the advances of a member of the press.

Why isn't something worth dwelling on I think. She, at the very least, doesn't owe him anything.

 

[ohbabyitsken]

And yet it continually happens. There was a thread about a cop who went out of his way to look up a woman's address and leave a note on her car. And his actions were defended and not lauded as creepy. There are some people who will totally ignore the wishes and boundaries of others or sympathize with someone doing the same. I wish there weren't but it's a given, especially on the internet.

You make it sound like only your opinion is the right one. "I think it's creepy so everyone else should also find it creepy". I know plenty of people who would find that romantic depending on the content of the note. Hell there are plenty of romantic Hollywood movies with worse stuff than that.

 

[Zornack]

And if she said "Fuck off" or "Leave me alone" or even "No thanks" He'd probably leave and think she's a bitch or even say it to her face. Or the the small potentiality that he would escalate the harassment.

Do you think he thinks more highly of her now than if she had turned him down earlier?

 

[Dice//]

Jesus Christ. Does everything have to be made this male/female stuff? How about the dude is just a moron who said moronic things?

Mostly because the greater social world makes it about male/female things. Gender neutrality would benefit, but we're still so stuck in "his" and "her" ideas.

I agree though, whether a man or woman did it, both should be given a wag of the finger nonetheless. But I guess when it comes to sex stuff the situation has a bit more gravity.

 

[mavs]

If it's the same one I read I hardly think that's grounds for a banning. But hey I'm not a mod

Calling someone a joke poster will sometimes do it (I would know.) But I'd guess that comparing being offended by unsolicited sexting to condoning slavery was probably the immediate cause.

 

[Schobeleth]

Man I hope harlequin wasn't banned for his comments in this thread. Even if you disagree with him he wasn't rude or an asshole. Lame

Yeah despite him having a wildly different opinion/view on the matter, he was being civil with his responses.

I'm still just in awe of the whole thing, stupified really. It really boggles the mind how people are questioning her professionalism by her not telling him flatly no.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Wow. I could scarcely cringe hard enough while reading that. Holy shit is that bad.

 

[docbon]

I have no idea why you replied in a thread you basically didn't read at all and yet still wrote up some uninformed "What's the big deal here, guys?" dross.

i liked the part about social justice warrior zealotry

 

[Devolution]

You make it sound like only your opinion is the right one. "I think it's creepy so everyone else should also find it creepy". I know plenty of people who would find that romantic depending on the content of the note. Hell there are plenty of romantic Hollywood movies with worse stuff than that.

Going into a database to look up someone's address without official permission in order to leave a note at their residence is creepy. And she reported him. And "Hollywood" isn't an excuse but keep using fictional universes to justify fucked up behavior.

 

[bistromathics]

nm, didn't read post all the way

 

[Fotheringay]

Jesus Christ. Does everything have to be made this male/female stuff? How about the dude is just a moron who said moronic things?

Because if this was two dudes, the response would have been "Fuck off creep". The reason there's nuance here is because of the debate about how we as a society deal with unwanted advances, and when it crosses into harassment given the context of the relationship and nature of the encounter. The women commenting here have clearly explained the societal pressure to just "shrug it off" given the possible backlash, something that men might not be aware of.

 

[Marcel]

Maybe you should read his post again before you post that holier than thou stuff.

I did. It's pretty much some generic and condescending call for calm while also calling out imaginary "social justice zealots" who just take everything too far (haha). Don't worry, I know you agreed with that recently banned Harlequin guy so you don't need to run anything down for me.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

So you think Jaffe thinks the guy *was* being professional? I don't. I read those tweets as it being presumed the guy was a shithead and that David was advising being forthright about the line being crossed. And communicating that. And thinking that would be not only a good thing to do (as something he would teach his kids) but a professional thing to do.

I think it can be read in the worst possible way too, thats also a possibility. Its not the one I'm assuming though.

No, because that would be reading between the lines. Let's look at the things Jaffe says directly in his tweets, shall we?

1. No only means no if you literally say no.

2. It's the victim's fault if they allow themselves to be harassed by the same person multiple times.

3. The victim did not keep things professional.

4. She is to blame if she let the harassment continue.

I don't care if Jaffe also agrees that the IndieStatik guy was crossing the line - frankly it would take an even bigger idiot not to - but I ain't reading between shit. These are the things Jaffe actually said, no extrapolation required on anyone's part. What's his point here?

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Have a great sunday!

 

[Vermillion]

Jesus Christ. Does everything have to be made this male/female stuff? How about the dude is just a moron who said moronic things?

It's endemic of a greater disease, mate.

 

[udivision]

This is the same guy - right? This guy is a world class fucking creeper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vvcQs2wsn4

omg

 

[Principate]

You make it sound like only your opinion is the right one. "I think it's creepy so everyone else should also find it creepy". I know plenty of people who would find that romantic depending on the content of the note. Hell there are plenty of romantic Hollywood movies with worse stuff than that.

It's not about creepy or not it's about regarding another human with respect and pretty much general empathy. I won't say only my view is correct (though it's the one the law tries to uphold), but doesn't prevent from looking down upon people that don't empathise or treat others with basic respect.

 

[rpmurphy]

http://kotaku.com/5883107/does-david-jaffe-really-recommend-his-new-game-as-a-sexual-aid

Well, yeah, and that but it was commentary for something else. Anyway, don't mind me.

 

[Valnen]

Jesus Christ. Does everything have to be made this male/female stuff? How about the dude is just a moron who said moronic things?

Well, we are talking about a specific case in which a man potentially sexually harassed a woman and then made a lame forced apology. That's why the conversation is mostly comprised of such things.

I really wish people wouldn't apologize for things they aren't sorry for, as this guy clearly isn't. It's more offensive to me to offer a fake apology than none at all.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Yeah despite him having a wildly different opinion/view on the matter, he was being civil with his responses.

I'm still just in awe of the whole thing, stupified really. It really boggles the mind how people are questioning her professionalism by her not telling him flatly no.

I'm not in that camp. The guy apologized so he clearly feels he did something wrong. Had been accused of sexual harassment and felt like I was innocent I would put up one hell of a fight.

I was commenting on the mob mentality of twitter/gaf/web. I just think it's a little scary IMHO.

 

[Zornack]

Many women -- from what I've been told, and this is where empathy comes in -- have learned that actively pushing back against unwanted advances is prone to escalating the situation rather than defusing it. In many cases, there are no good options once they're put in that position other than simply refusing to acknowledge. Add to that the fact that she's looking for a job in the industry, it's a small industry, she doesn't want to burn bridges with an apparently influential journalist, and it's clear why she her preferred course of action was to keep trying to redirect it to professional questions.

Hmm, I see where you're coming from but I still think that taking it public is escalating it way further than turning him down, but I'm probably completely off base.

 

[electricpirate]

The most depressing part of this thread is that people can't see the power imbalances that make it difficult for her to just say "Hey your being a dick never message me again."

The issues present in telling a guy a guy to fuck off are a huge part of why this is terrible, not just that this guy is a creep. Jaffe's tweets just kind of underscore the core cultural problem.

 

[docbon]

Going into a database to look up someone's address without official permission in order to leave a note at their residence is creepy. And she reported him. And "Hollywood" isn't an excuse but keep using fictional universes to justify fucked up behavior.

some of these responses are getting mind-boggling.

 

[dreamfall]

Jaffe, damn.

I like your work, I do- but these comments... I don't know what to think. I feel like I can grasp what you're going at, but this is definitely harassment. And it's ugly and unwarranted, by anyone.

And for Schreier, respect as always- not a huge Kotaku fan, but your work continually is on point.

This situation feels really unsettling.

 

[Dice//]

Have a great sunday!

 

[Aquamarine]

Jaffe, damn.

I like your work, I do- but these comments... I don't know what to think. I feel like I can grasp what you're going at, but this is definitely harassment. And it's ugly and unwarranted, by anyone.

And for Schreier, respect as always- not a huge Kotaku fan, but your work continually is on point.

This situation feels really unsettling.

Yeah...the sole positive element of this whole ordeal is that it was a good article by Mr. Schreier.

 

[Orayn]

Hmm, I see where you're coming from but I still think that taking it public is escalating it way further than turning him down, but I'm probably completely off base.

Do you not remember our first exchange in this thread? She didn't take it public.

 

[NullPointer]

No, because that would be reading between the lines. Let's look at the things Jaffe says directly in his tweets, shall we?

1. No only means no if you literally say no.

2. It's the victim's fault if they allow themselves to be harassed by the same person multiple times.

3. The victim did not keep things professional.

4. She is to blame if she let the harassment continue.

I don't care if Jaffe also agrees that the IndieStatik guy was crossing the line - frankly it would take an even bigger idiot not to - but I ain't reading between shit. These are the things Jaffe actually said, no extrapolation required on anyone's part. What's his point here?

His point is that if you want to stop something, say "stop". Ignoring and joking is a social cue yes, and unfortunately open to interpretation from the perspective of the creeper. NO, is not. STOP, is not.

That is why we say NO means NO and not "well if you don't respond to the worst bits but keep the conversation going they'll probably pick up on the cues and leave you alone". That wouldn't be responsible advice, and so no, it disturbs me to see a passive response to what it such clear creepiness. I *think* thats the point he's trying to make, or at least I'd hope so. I'm not quite ready to toss him to the wolves, especially considering his manner of speaking.

 

[Zornack]

Do you not remember our first exchange in this thread? She didn't take it public.

She told her friend it was okay to make it public, right? I don't see that as being any different.

Edit: yeah

https://twitter.com/georgeb3dr/status/425389819091382272

 

[JDSN]

Do you think he thinks more highly of her now than if she had turned him down earlier?

Some would have probably called her a bitch and feel bad for the poor dude if she would have told him to fuck at the first few messages, just look at the guy that got banned that initially downplayed this as weird flirting but admitted that it was harassment after realizing the guy have been doing it for almost 2 hours and was doing it again 5 hours later.

Now how arbitrary is that? The guy's compass of what constitutes as sexual harassment was obviously messed up and there have been some here that dont even see it as sexual harassment. The line is sexual harassment was clearly crossed, but she is aware that some might think it isnt, the problem is that there is a chance that that someone might your boss or even your human resources guy. Hell, imagine the trouble this woman would be if her boss was Jaffe?

It's endemic of a greater disease, mate.

Yeah, its called "Progress", call the CDC.

 

[Murder. She Wrote]

Do you think he thinks more highly of her now than if she had turned him down earlier?

We're talking about Gotchaye's post right? No, but I'm simply saying it's a difficult position for a woman to be in and it sucks that it seems to happen so often. If she completely disregards his feelings and says fuck off that might escalate the situation into something much much worse.

I'm a man and I've never experienced something like this, so the best thing I can do is listen, empathize, and work to prevent this kind of stuff. Also, holy shitballs is this thread moving fast.

 

[Corto]

Awwwwwyeaaaaahhhhh!

Nothin like a good'ol fashion Social Justice Warrior internet mob lynching!

I think it's almost been a week since the last one.

I always wonder though, and please try to enlighten my ignorant ass on this.

But has it ever occurred to you people that this matter is best settled in private? As in, maybe, just maybe that this incident is none of ya'll business?

That guy is an obvious asshole, and I doubt that anything can be done about that, but the amount of righteousness, and zealotry around here is sickening.

Ohhh and for the record, this guy represents himself and himself ONLY!

Not Gamers, not game journalists, not the gaming industry, so can it with the whole "I'm embarrassed to be part of X,Y,Z group" bullshit!

You're absolutely right. In the good ol' days this would be handled as privately as possible by her brother, father, boyfriend or husband beating this guy into a pulp. All very privately. Nowadays luckily, the woman has some powerful retaliation/dissuasion tools without resorting to violence by proxy disclosing this behaviour and let it be known that it's completely unacceptable.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

You make it sound like only your opinion is the right one. "I think it's creepy so everyone else should also find it creepy". I know plenty of people who would find that romantic depending on the content of the note. Hell there are plenty of romantic Hollywood movies with worse stuff than that.

Think about why it might be a fallacy to bring up fiction to justify a real life event.

Just think about it for a bit.

 

[EmiPrime]

http://kotaku.com/5883107/does-david-jaffe-really-recommend-his-new-game-as-a-sexual-aid

Uh, wow.

 

[Valnen]

Think about why it might be a fallacy to bring up fiction to justify a real life event.

Just think about it for a bit.

It's not just in fiction that people enjoy blunt sexual advances. It happens all the time in real life.

 

[Schobeleth]

I'm not in that camp. The guy apologized so he clearly feels he did something wrong. Had been accused of sexual harassment and felt like I was innocent I would put up one hell of a fight.

I was commenting on the mob mentality of twitter/gaf/web. I just think it's a little scary IMHO.

Yeah I was talking about harlequin in the first bit of my response - gaf/twitter/etc can get scary when everyone coalesces into a giant tidal wave of opinion or feels. You have to be careful on how you call that phenomena because it could get you banned as well.

What I'm really interested in is why the original censored convo had the bit about his thumbs and him not being drunk curiously removed, only to appear in the uncensored version, mostly because this directly contradicts his apology.

Idk if someone touched upon this already but this thread is kind of flying, I'm trying to keep up and read everyones responses.

 

[faceless007]

Hmm, I see where you're coming from but I still think that taking it public is escalating it way further than turning him down, but I'm probably completely off base.

Taking it public serves two purposes: 1) it's the equivalent of going to your boss if this happened between co-workers, thus hopefully getting the issue noticed by someone in a position to do something about it, which she wasn't, and 2) it serves as an example of the kind of treatment that is, from what I hear, apparently endemic in the tech industry for women and something that more of a spotlight needs to be shone on.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

His point is that if you want to stop something, say "stop". Ignoring and joking is a social cue yes, and unfortunately open to interpretation from the perspective of the creeper. NO, is not. STOP, is not.

That is why we say NO means NO and not "well if you don't respond to the worst bits but keep the conversation going they'll probably pick up on the cues and leave you alone". That wouldn't be responsible advice, and so no, it disturbs me to see a passive response to what it such clear creepiness. I *think* thats the point he's trying to make, or at least I'd hope so. I'm not quite ready to toss him to the wolves, especially considering his manner of speaking.

Why is she at fault in the slightest for trying to salvage the conversation? Why is that disturbing? Why is that unprofessional?

You keep saying that I'm reading between the lines, but you seem to be the one trying to decode what Jaffe is saying rather than just reading his exact words.

 

[Zornack]

Some would have probably called her a bitch and feel bad for the poor dude after the first few messages, just look at the guy that got banned that initially downplayed this as weird flirting but admitted that it was weird after seeing the guy have been doing it for almost 2 hours and was doing it again 5 hours later.

Now how arbitrary is that? The guy's compass of what constitutes as sexual harassment was obviously messed up and there have been some here that dont even see it as sexual harassment.

I think it's just as unfair to think "oh, if she explicitly turned him down he would have thought she was a bitch!" as it is to think "well she didn't explicitly state no so she must have been okay with his advances."

We're talking about Gotchaye's post right? No, but I'm simply saying it's a difficult position for a woman to be in and it sucks that it seems to happen so often. If she completely disregards his feelings and says fuck off that might escalate the situation into something much much worse.

I'm a man and I've never experienced something like this, so the best thing I can do is listen, empathize, and work to prevent this kind of stuff. Also, holy shitballs is this thread moving fast.

It's definitely a difficult situation to be in and I in no way think what she did was wrong. I do take issue with the idea that if she had explicitly turned him down he would get hostile.

 

[faceless007]

It's not just in fiction that people enjoy blunt sexual advances. It happens all the time in real life.

By people who are primarily professional connections?

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

It's not just in fiction that people enjoy blunt sexual advances. It happens all the time in real life.

I think you think you know what I'm responding to, but I don't think you actually do.

 

[Forkball]

He used the word "euphoria" non-ironically.

 

[mattiewheels]

I think she did the right thing by not reacting and just continuing the normal conversation. Let the guy keep hanging himself if he's gonna act like that on such a documentable communication. The people saying she should have said something against it to him probably think this shouldn't have been made public, though.