IndieStatik Founder apologizes for "inappropriate" comments to female game dev

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Devolution said:
I think it's pretty messed up that it's obvious who harassed who and some people are stuck on chiding her about it. Pages upon pages on "how could she have handled this better." Really. Really. Great narrative there.
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Verbal harassment usually requires some complaint to be made in order to be constituted as such. It is repeated, unwelcome attention of a sexual nature. In the workplace, you will go to HR or someone in management.

The person has to be informed, and persist in his behavior for it to be considered harassment in a legal sense.

There do exist oblivious people such as autistics who may be totally oblivious to social cues.

They may make someone very uncomfortable, but I don't think it would be considered harassment unless they are made aware that their behavior is unwelcome.
 
I'm going to attempt an analogy to hopefully take all the gender policies out of it.

Imagine there was a story about a person who was completely following all the traffic rules late at night, driving down the freeway, but got blindsided by a drunk driver who crossed the meridian completely out of control.

Now, imagine that there were pages of arguments, asking, "well, if the driver would've swerved quicker" and "yeah, the drunk driver is at fault, but why were they driving at 2AM on the Interstate. Ya' know the drunks are out then, you have to be more careful."

That'd be an idiotic conversation to have, because yes, in theory, the sober driver could've pulled something off to not get hit, but it's just as likely they would've wrecked themself or cause more damage.

The drunk driver is at fault here, even if the sober driver didn't have his hands at the 10 and 2 position.
 
davidjaffe said:
I understand that. But he's already calling her pretty lady at that point. Wouldn't you advise her to keep it strictly pro then?

If a waiter comes up to you and says 'Hey! Welcome to Captain D's! How are we doing today?' that is pure business. It's not really an invite to start talking about your divorce unless you are interested in taking the conversation to a more personal level. So I'm just saying that I can see how in the dude's mind he's going 'ok, she's cool chatting about stuff that's more than JUSt business.' Never said I see how that means she's ready to talk about him kissing her vagina, for God's sakes. Fuck.
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I think she took being called a pretty lady as a compliment but he took that to a whole new level. I mean, you can still keep the conversation professional (or at least semi casual), but taking "I'm still going along with the divorce" as green light for going the extreme end of flirtation is crazy. Inviting someone for drinks, or calling someone beautiful is somewhat tiptoeing the line but it's ok, at least I think it is. what he did was not -- it wasn't just him trying to be funny or joking though. I actually felt uncomfortable at this sudden (extreme)advances.
 
runnin_blue said:
I guess?

A LOT and I mean A LOT of people, pretty much everybody in this thread has said that he was completely out of order. While other people are also saying that she could have easily walked away from the situation.

I would like to see you admit this very trivial fact that, yes, she could have walked away.

It is not admitting that she had any wrongdoing in this situation whatsoever. It is simply stating what she could (and probably should) have done.
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"She did not do anything wrong, but probably should have walked away."
 
What does it matter if she could have walked away?

I mean lets say as soon as this dude asks if he could kiss her vagina she logs out of Facebook.

Okay, that stopped him from saying as many gross things as he did, but he still said gross stuff to her? He still harassed her.

She eventually stops responding to him, so it seems she did eventually walk away. What difference would her walking away earlier do? He harassed her. In this case, she tried to keep it neutral and business-oriented, in another parallel hypothetical universe she walked away earlier.

So what?
 
BobbyRobby said:
Verbal harassment usually requires some complaint to be made in order to be constituted as such. It is repeated, unwelcome attention of a sexual nature. In the workplace, you will go to HR or someone in management.

The person has to be informed, and persist in his behavior for it to be considered harassment in a legal sense.

There do exist oblivious people such as autistics who may be totally oblivious to social cues.

They may make someone very uncomfortable, but I don't think it would be considered harassment unless they are made aware that their behavior is unwelcome.
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Hmm - this seems counter-intuitive. Obviously the workplace is more concerned with a 'hostile work environment' or that kind of thing, but I wouldn't think that would stop a single, completely un-expected, out-of-context comment from being harassment. Though we aren't only talking about the legal definition here, of course
 
davidjaffe said:
God you are so predisposed to this view that there's no use talking to you.

Let me just say this: if ANY woman at our business/office/working on our game would have to put up with this in order to do business and carry on, I would consider it a badge of shame I'd wear for life (given I'm a co-owner of the business and the game director). As much as I think many of y'all are getting this wrong-ish, I DO NOT SUPPORT ANYTHING OTHER THAN AN EQUAL AND FAIR WORKPLACE for men and women, any orientation, race,etc.

Not all of us men are dicks trying to keep women down. I love working with women and attribute a lot of the success I've been lucky to have to a number of great women. Because of that- AND because I have 2 little girls whom I adore with every fiber- it would break my heart to ever learn I had made someone feel bad at their place of work because of their gender,etc.

Happy to make them feel bad if they are shit at their job and are making the game shit, however :).

David
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"I love working with women! Some of my best friends are women!"
 
JesseEwiak said:
I'm going to attempt an analogy to hopefully take all the gender policies out of it.

Imagine there was a story about a person who was completely following all the traffic rules late at night, driving down the freeway, but got blindsided by a drunk driver who crossed the meridian completely out of control.

Now, imagine that there were pages of arguments, asking, "well, if the driver would've swerved quicker" and "yeah, the drunk driver is at fault, but why were they driving at 2AM on the Interstate. Ya' know the drunks are out then, you have to be more careful."

That'd be an idiotic conversation to have, because yes, in theory, the sober driver could've pulled something off to not get hit, but it's just as likely they would've wrecked themself or cause more damage.

The drunk driver is at fault here, even if the sober driver didn't have his hands at the 10 and 2 position.
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That case also has nothing to do with this one. That analogy is terrible^2.
 
Prophet Steve said:
"She did not do anything wrong, but probably should have walked away."
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I don't think people should walk away. I think they should confront each other on their bullshit. I think that we should inform them that it's good to confront people on their bullshit. I think we should create an environment where confronting people on their bullshit is accommodated, so that it reinforces the response and creates effective change. A multi-faceted response is the only solution to engraving it in our culture.
 
BobbyRobby said:
Verbal harassment usually requires some complaint to be made in order to be constituted as such. It is repeated, unwelcome attention of a sexual nature. In the workplace, you will go to HR or someone in management.

The person has to be informed, and persist in his behavior for it to be considered harassment in a legal sense.

There do exist oblivious people such as autistics who may be totally oblivious to social cues.

They may make someone very uncomfortable, but I don't think it would be considered harassment unless they are made aware that their behavior is unwelcome.
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You couldnt be any more mistaken about this, there isnt an arbitrary measure of time for it to become sexual harrasment and the lack of explicit request of the victim to stop doesnt mean it doesnt count. Also, you also said that the guy acted within his rights because he is not a co-worker, that is also incorrect.

Seriously, why are people still pretending that your work/school/campus doesnt have clear guidelines of behavior that explicitly talk about this?
 
Considering the current environment surrounding gender issues in gaming, this dude picked a hell of a time to have a meltdown of this sort.
 
Mental Atrophy said:
It's a really big thread, to be fair. Not everybody is going to read 25 pages just to enter the conversation.
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Then they shouldn't attack me. I have read the ENTIRE thread.

Prophet Steve said:
That you are implying that she did something wrong by not walking away. If someone according to you should probably have done something different, you are also saying that what she did now is wrong.
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Am not implying at all that she did wrong, just stating what options she had.

Don't put words in my mouth.
 
runnin_blue said:
Then they shouldn't attack me. I have read the ENTIRE thread.



Am not implying at all that she did wrong, just stating what options she had.

Don't put words in my mouth.
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Maybe you should walk away from the thread if you feel you're being attacked? Just letting you know it's an option.
 
runnin_blue said:
Then they shouldn't attack me. I have read the ENTIRE thread.



Am not implying at all that she did wrong, just stating what options she had.

Don't put words in my mouth.
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You are saying what she probably should have done. She did not do that. Doesn't that imply that you think she has done the wrong thing?
 
Prophet Steve said:
You are saying what she probably should have done. She did not do that. Doesn't that imply that you think she has done the wrong thing?
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One way to look at it is that she did the right thing given her available data, but that data was incomplete through no fault of her own. Now she has more data, should a similar scenario arise again, and so do some others who might find themselves in her shoes.
 
So if they're supposedly friends why should she have walked away? She's obviously awkwardly trying to deflect his comments. I mean if I suddenly turned into a giant creeper and acted like this towards my female friends they wouldn't walk suddenly walk away but at the same time I think it would put a big strain on our friendship. Personally this issue should remain between them. He's pathetic yes but at the same time how many times have females and males acted creepy/pathetic towards a friend while said friend had no interest in them? Especially when intoxicated. I'm not defending his behavior but at the same time what right do I have to judge him? The internet just takes things too far sometimes. Now if they're not friends this is a whole new issue.
 
runnin_blue said:
Yes. Make a point if you have one but I can tell you right now that you are barking up the wrong tree.

I'm the new Jaffe all of a sudden!
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image.php
 
Hah, I've seen this a few times before.

Without going into specifics, I work in an industry where there are often attractive women (and some men) around to promote services to us (mostly men, some women). Their livelihood depends on us going back to our bosses and telling them how much we need the service they're promoting. It's pretty common, you can probably all name a dozen industries like it.

Anyway, the extent I've seen peers abuse this dynamic is incredible. Guys (and occasionally girls) take runs at them using really aggressive pick-up lines knowing, at worse, all that will happen is an awkward smile and a laugh. I've even heard someone refer to them as 'target dummies'.

This developer's responses read exactly like a text version of the faces these promoters make when they're humouring unwanted advances - politely smile while bringing the conversation back on point. They know we talk too, so they can't risk even a polite, clear rejection for fear of one of us turning the rest against them.

I'm not saying I know for a fact that's what is going on here, but it certainly reads like it. It's why you need to be extra careful with professional relationships where one side could be perceived as in a position of power.
 
runnin_blue said:
Yes. Make a point if you have one but I can tell you right now that you are barking up the wrong tree.

I'm the new Jaffe all of a sudden!
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My point is that

runnin_blue said:
Am not implying at all that she did wrong, just stating what options she had.

Don't put words in my mouth.
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Is not necessarily a true statement. You are working under the assumption that she can see a situation clearly when she is in one. Hence: hindsight bias.
 
Since we're discussing hypothetical situations, I think the best thing would've been if the guy chose the option not to say anything gross in the first place. I can definitely say that he made the wrong choice, and there were other, better choices he could've made. Like just asking about the game and not bringing up vaginas at all. While the woman could've made a bunch of random choices that were no better or worse than what she actually did, the dude definitely messed up. Might be worth focusing on that?
 
V_Arnold said:
My point is that



Is not necessarily a true statement. You are working under the assumption that she can see a situation clearly when she is in one. Hence: hindsight bias.
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Sorry professor. But I still think your point is mute and I stand by my comments entirely.

The Ps4 Looks Great said:
Are people just being obtuse toward running blue for fun? He's being pretty clear.
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It's the internet. I could say the sky is blue and they would argue the fact. Cue scientific debate.

Painraze said:
I read what you wrote, typical victim blaming.
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No. Obviously you didn't. Typical bandwagon jumping.

I said the thread proper, not what I wrote. Read much?
 
JDSN said:
You couldnt be any more mistaken about this, there isnt an arbitrary measure of time for it to become sexual harrasment and the lack of explicit request of the victim to stop doesnt mean it doesnt count. Also, you also said that the guy acted within his rights because he is not a co-worker, that is also incorrect.

Seriously, why are people still pretending that your work/school/campus doesnt have clear guidelines of behavior that explicitly talk about this?
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Your link says that harrassment has to be frequent or severe for it to be considered illegal.

The end bit about harasser not being an employee,

Say you have a client or customer in the office. He is harassing a female employee. Management allows it to happen. The company could be sued for sexual harassment in that case.

I dont think it has anything to do with what happened here. That is the website for the EEOC.

What happened here was someone asking a girl for sexual favors. You are allowed to do that.
 
mechphree said:
Why does she? Why is the burden on her to tell him to stop doing stupid behavior, when he's the one doing it? She was obviously trying to stay professional about it but he just kept at it over and over again.
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Professional should no longer be on the table when he starts talking about his penis.
 
Painraze said:
I read what you wrote, typical victim blaming.
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Reaaaaallly don't think that saying she should've walked away is victim blaming at all. If I was about to be attacked by a dog (y'know, growling, barking, etc) and I didn't run away, I wouldn't think that someone saying I should've walked away was victim blaming.

It's just that, y'know, I should've ran away.
 
RawNuts said:
Haven't you ever been in a situation that is horribly awkward and you just try to maintain composure? Not everyone can just say, "stop it"; some people are more passive than that, but that doesn't mean the exchange wasn't unwanted.
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I've already stated this guy is sick and has problems, but I'm going to answer this. If you can't say "stop it" over the INTERNET, then you need to work on that. I don't think Jaffe is defending him, but being overly sympathetic towards the victim isn't smart either. Take responsibility. If someone makes you uncomfortable, say so. There's even firm and nice ways to say it. For example, if someone was making suggestions to me (on the internet) I'd quickly tell them "Let's keep this professional". Done. Easy. And easier because you're not even doing that face to face. It's on a chat, which makes speaking your mind a ton easier. How many people call people names on the internet? A lot, because it's easy. Now would they do that face to face? Nope, a bit more complicated.

Anyone that's taken a sexual harassment class at work knows you don't just sit idle while someone's doing something that makes you feel uncomfortable.

Again, not blaming her, just answering the question and giving an opinion on what she should have done which could have stopped this creepy Josh dude.
 
runnin_blue said:
Sorry professor. But I still think your point is mute and I stand by my comments entirely.
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Aint no professor, but if you are familiar with hindsight bias and refuse to acknowledge that it is currently affecting your judgment, that is a nice cognitive dissonance right there. And I managed to write these words down without insulting you or your avatar, damn! *judging the judgers mode ON*
 
V_Arnold said:
Aint no professor, but if you are familiar with hindsight bias and refuse to acknowledge that it is currently affecting your judgment, that is a nice cognitive dissonance right there. And I managed to write these words down without insulting you or your avatar, damn! *judging the judgers mode ON*
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I am familiar with it and still stand by my comments.

What are you gonna do.
 
Prophet Steve said:
Since when does using power have to do with anything. He is harassing her, not forcing her, we know that.

He constantly makes comments about having sex with her and those comments are being completely ignore and he escalates.
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Well in my opinion harassment has to be threatening, not unwanted sexual advances. As it appears to me the guy is a creep, partly due to being inebriated, but there was no threat, it was just in poor taste.
 
DryvBy said:
I've already stated this guy is sick and has problems, but I'm going to answer this. If you can't say "stop it" over the INTERNET, then you need to work on that. I don't think Jaffe is defending him, but being overly sympathetic towards the victim isn't smart either. Take responsibility. If someone makes you uncomfortable, say so. There's even firm and nice ways to say it. For example, if someone was making suggestions to me (on the internet) I'd quickly tell them "Let's keep this professional". Done. Easy. And easier because you're not even doing that face to face. It's on a chat, which makes speaking your mind a ton easier. How many people call people names on the internet? A lot, because it's easy. Now would they do that face to face? Nope, a bit more complicated.

Anyone that's taken a sexual harassment class at work knows you don't just sit idle while someone's doing something that makes you feel uncomfortable.

Again, not blaming her, just answering the question and giving an opinion on what she should have done which could have stopped this creepy Josh dude.
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Except its not that simple. Yea it sounds black and white on paper but when you include people nothing is black and white. Also its easier to tell strangers off but if they're so called friends then its different. Also if there are sexual harrassment classes that have to teach you its ok to speak up doesn't that say something right there?
 
V_Arnold said:
Aint no professor, but if you are familiar with hindsight bias and refuse to acknowledge that it is currently affecting your judgment, that is a nice cognitive dissonance right there. And I managed to write these words down without insulting you or your avatar, damn! *judging the judgers mode ON*
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What she did or did not do is completely on her. Same with the guy.
 
blankempathy said:
Except its not that simple. Yea it sounds black and white on paper but when you include people nothing is black and white. Also its easier to tell strangers off but if they're so called friends then its different.
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Clearly they're not friends though. She posted those screenshots, instead of going back and saying hey, stop that shit, yo. Perhaps I have the wrong definition of a friend -- but I'd expect someone to privately try to resolve things before resorting to that if they were indeed friends of mine.

I would put them at acquaintances at most.
 
Souri said:
https://twitter.com/DroptheDice/status/425600079446441984

It looks like Josh has a history of creeping onto females in the games industry....
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This accusation is relevant to the thread so I updated the thread with this.

If something relevant is posted and I don't update the OP then that is not necessarily because I have an agenda myself, it's just that I might not have seen it. Feel free to message a mod to update the thread if I don't respond.
I just want to make this clear as I've also discussed this topic in the thread and therefor am not without bias even if I try to be cognizant of it.
 
Nephtis said:
Reaaaaallly don't think that saying she should've walked away is victim blaming at all. If I was about to be attacked by a dog (y'know, growling, barking, etc) and I didn't run away, I wouldn't think that someone saying I should've walked away was victim blaming.

It's just that, y'know, I should've ran away.
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Actually, the best thing to do in this situation is stand dead still and hope he sniffs you and goes away (which is kind of what the woman here was doing too now that I think about it). Saved my ass once when I was 6 and I got charged by an angry German Shepherd.
 
blankempathy said:
Except its not that simple. Yea it sounds black and white on paper but when you include people nothing is black and white. Also its easier to tell strangers off but if they're so called friends then its different.
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Really? Because I'm married and if a friend, even a close friend, started making me uncomfortable, I'd tell them to stop even in person. Then by definition, she was a coward for not speaking up (not insulting term). People should stand up for what's right. He deserves to have his name in mud, but I think she had a responsibility to ask him to stop.
 
Smellycat said:
Why did the woman continue the conversation if she found the comments inappropriate? And how come she didn't tell him right then that he was being disrespectful??

Instead she embarrassed him in front of the whole world...

Don't get me wrong, the comments are way out of line but she didn't really do anything to stop them from piling on.
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Yeah :((( poor guy!!! She should have taken his feelings into consideration. Boo hoo. :'(
 
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