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[marrec]

A victim did not act in the exact way that I think is 100 percent perfect in the given situation (and I think this while viewing the problem completely in retrospect), therefore she must bear some of the responsibility for another person's creepy behavior despite her not doing anything wrong.

Note that in Jaffe's story about a coworker, he said he did not like the girl who was able to speak up. Jaffe refuses to realize that women who immediately shut down this type of behavior are seen as cold bitches or feminazis who "can't take a joke" by butthurt dudes. And of course he doesn't like the type of person that he requires a victim be. Enough so that he must make pains to explicitly state his dislike for this person even though it has nothing to do with the story he's telling.

The type of victim blaming that Jaffe is doing actually makes it harder for women to speak up right when something happens.

That's the funny thing.

The viewpoint that Jaffe ascribes to forces a potentially harassed woman into an impossibly narrow set of decisions.

If they don't explicitly tell the potential harasser to stop before the situation escalates and he's describing the individual atoms of her clitoris, then she's at fault.

If she does tell the potential harasser to stop as soon as she feels uncomfortable, then she's a frigid jumpy bitch who can't take a joke.

 

[Green Card]

But how are we better now, when we put 10x the pressure on him in return?

It is easier just to shit on him.

 

[Jintor]

But how are we better now, when we put 10x the pressure on him in return?

Maybe someone in a similar position to him will now think twice about sending that kind of crap to someone in a similar position to her.

 

[Mental Atrophy]

Maybe someone in a similar position to him will now think twice about sending that kind of crap to someone in a similar position to her.

Bingo.

 

[Ravensmash]

That's the funny thing.

The viewpoint that Jaffe ascribes to forces a potentially harassed woman into an impossibly narrow set of decisions.

If they don't explicitly tell the potential harasser to stop before the situation escalates and he's describing the individual atoms of her clitoris, then she's at fault.

If she does tell the potential harasser to stop as soon as she feels uncomfortable, then she's a frigid jumpy bitch who can't take a joke.

I don't think anyone in this thread has said that it's her fault, David certainly hasn't.

 

[2San]

It's not like I am surprised. I just sometime wish the same people who accuse those with a more differentiated, calm view on this (or any similar) matter to lack common sense, would realize that it is actually themselves who lack the very same.

What would a calm view be? You talk about common sense, but fail to see that ignoring someone advances is a clear sign of saying no. You have taken seemingly no effort to read the thread either, since we have gone through this multiple times.

 

[The Technomancer]

But how are we better now, when we put 10x the pressure on him in return?

...because his behavior is absolutely deserving of that pressure?

 

[runnin_blue]

It's not like I am surprised. I just sometime wish the same people who accuse those with a more differentiated, calm view on this (or any similar) matter to lack common sense, would realize that it is actually themselves who lack the very same.

I hear you brother/sister, but unfortunately the internet world is full of keyboard crusaders with as much spine as jelly. Tough on the keys, but couldn't look me in the eye.

 

[EdibleKnife]

Can we please stop with the "She could haves"?
Right:
She could have walked away
She could have reported it immediately
She could have kept it private
She could have told him off

Great! Fantastic! I agree she could have done a whole lot of things. I'm sure she's fully aware of them now. But how about we instead focus on what Josh could have done?

If he was drunk, he could have waited to talk business when he was sober

He could have read what he wrote, noticed that she wasn't reciprocating, and stopped cold

He could have come back the several hours later that he had and apologized for his rudeness, or better yet, stuck to the topic at hand and apologized during their conversation

He could have not taken her mentioning of her divorce as some sort of flirting invitation. Certainly not one where it's appropriate for him to mention his penis and her vag.

Instead of focusing on all the things she could have done to pull him out of his own mess, how about talking about all the things HE could have done to not put himself in a mess in the first place.

 

[Devolution]

I don't think anyone in this thread has said that it's her fault, David certainly hasn't.

And yet he took it upon himself to keep the thread going on and on about how she could have done this or that to stop it.

Yeah.

Real smooth one he is.

 

[Interfectum]

But how are we better now, when we put 10x the pressure on him in return?

One way to stop a bad behavior on a massive scale is to make an example out of someone via public shaming. This is nothing new and is quite effective.

 

[marrec]

I don't think anyone in this thread has said that it's her fault, David certainly hasn't.

It's not her fault, she just should have said something to stop it? Do I have that right?

 

[Marauder Shields]

I don't know why some people acting like she owed this guy any sort of privacy or consideration. He lost that the second he started mixing his professional life with his pecker.

Yeah agreed. This thread has been an amazing read.

 

[2San]

I hear you brother/sister, but unfortunately the internet world is full of keyboard crusaders with as much spine as jelly. Tough on the keys, but couldn't look me in the eye.

Replies like these are a lot easier then using critical thought and typing out a measured response I guess. If anything by your lack of engagement with the presented arguments, you are the one on a crusade.

 

[Dahaka]

...because his behavior is absolutely deserving of that pressure?

How do you measure this? By pure unhandled emotion, outrage? This is what happens here. Some people really come off as enjoying the drama.

 

[PapaJustify]

Maybe someone in a similar position to him will now think twice about sending that kind of crap to someone in a similar position to her.

Might very well be. Still I believe there are far more appropriate ways to come to the same result, instead of setting this man out to public, global denunciation.

 

[marrec]

I hear you brother/sister, but unfortunately the internet world is full of keyboard crusaders with as much spine as jelly. Tough on the keys, but couldn't look me in the eye.

You lookin' to start a fight boy?

*puts up his fists*

I'm trained in the art of fisticuffs though guy. Lets take this outside where we can settle this like men!

 

[Interfectum]

I hear you brother/sister, but unfortunately the internet world is full of keyboard crusaders with as much spine as jelly. Tough on the keys, but couldn't look me in the eye.

Way to invalidate all of your posts with your embarrassing pseudo-macho bullshit.

 

[runnin_blue]

Replies like these are a lot easier then using critical thought and typing out a measured response I guess. If anything by your lack of engagement with the presented arguments, you are the one on a crusade.

Ah new to the thread? Go back and read.

Then post.

You lookin' to start a fight boy?

*puts up his fists*

I'm trained in the art of fisticuffs though guy. Lets take this outside where we can settle this like men!

Spoiler

Ok. Nah, we got no beef lol

 

[Corronchilejano]

If you are thinking in offering your junk to a coworker, don't. Ask her out for a coffee or something instead.

... and do not offer your junk later either. In fact, never do it.

 

[2San]

Might very well be. Still I believe there are far more appropriate ways to come to the same result, instead of setting this man out to public, global denunciation.

Like what? Saying that his way of doing are creepy is apparently not enough. You keep ignoring that he has done this more than once to other people as well.

 

[snap0212]

Maybe someone in a similar position to him will now think twice about sending that kind of crap to someone in a similar position to her.

Which is exactly what shouldn't happen. People should show behavior because they see it as right and understand why something is wrong, not because the internet will take them down otherwise. That's like beating your children because it's easier than to make them actually understand. They'll not show the behavior but only because they're afraid of the consequences and not because they understand.

 

[The Technomancer]

Might very well be. Still I believe there are far more appropriate ways to come to the same result, instead of setting this man out to public, global denunciation.

They're saying that this was part of a pattern of behavior. Maybe this was what it would take to get him to stop

 

[Zabka]

And I don't think that's possible, you see? I am German though. The right to dignity for each and every human being is the first paragraph of our constitution.

People in here are just mad.

I agree with you there, he did have a right to his dignity. But his actions show that he didn't respect hers or exercise his own.

 

[Jintor]

Might very well be. Still I believe there are far more appropriate ways to come to the same result, instead of setting this man out to public, global denunciation.

What are your suggestions?

Which is exactly what shouldn't happen. People should show behavior because they see it as right and understand why something is wrong, not because the internet will take them down otherwise. That's like beating your children because it's easier than to make them actually understand. They'll not show the behavior but only because they're afraid of the consequences and not because they understand.

This would be great, in an ideal world. In the meantime, while those lessons are being drilled into skulls, harassment of this nature will continue. Education and internalisation of norms among all is obviously the golden aim, but without enforcement or a sanction of some kind, it's difficult to quickly and effectively respond to offences or further deter future offences.

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

Jesus that's embarrassing

 

[godhard]

It's all about the timeline, IMO.

It was obvious in her initial conversation she didn't want to escalate the situation. She wanted to keep a personal/professional working relationship with the man (nothing wrong with that btw simply because she's female). The proverbial straw that broke the camel's back was when she woke up to this:

This is what caused her to go beyond simply talking to him and prompted a public shaming. He had 6-7 hours to get his head straight, drunk or not, but he still continued with and even turned up the aggressiveness.

It's possible he was still drunk at 5-6am, not an excuse mind.

 

[Blackthorn]

I should be surprised the primary topic of debate in this thread became the victim's behaviour. I should be.

 

[runnin_blue]

Way to invalidate all of your posts with your embarrassing pseudo-macho bullshit.

Why does that offend you? Are you a keyboard crusader?

 

[Nymphae]

This is what caused her to go beyond simply talking to him and prompted a public shaming. He had 6-7 hours to get his head straight, drunk or not, but he still continued with and even turned up the aggressiveness.

Holy shit, craziness. The guy completely deserves the public shaming.

 

[Interfectum]

It's possible he was still drunk at 5-6am, not an excuse mind.

Sure but what I'm saying is I'm guessing she slept off the initial conversation but after reading the final bit she decided something had to be done about it. Something beyond telling him "that was inappropriate" because, come on, look at what he wrote.

 

[Mental Atrophy]

Which is exactly what shouldn't happen. People should show behavior because they see it as right and understand why something is wrong, not because the internet will take them down otherwise. That's like beating your children because it's easier than to make them actually understand. They'll not show the behavior but only because they're afraid of the consequences and not because they understand.

Some people respond differently to different stimuli. There are some people who are only kept in line via consequences.

 

[2San]

Ah new to the thread? Go back and read.

Then post.

I have been here before thank you, but we can do without your condescending posts to stroke your own ego.

 

[Interfectum]

Why does that offend you? Are you a keyboard crusader?

I'm not offended, I'm embarrassed for you.

 

[Jackpot]

That's the funny thing.

The viewpoint that Jaffe ascribes to forces a potentially harassed woman into an impossibly narrow set of decisions.

If they don't explicitly tell the potential harasser to stop before the situation escalates and he's describing the individual atoms of her clitoris, then she's at fault.

If she does tell the potential harasser to stop as soon as she feels uncomfortable, then she's a frigid jumpy bitch who can't take a joke.

Bingo. The vitriol of his rants have only highlighted how little he understands the situation.

 

[marrec]

I should be surprised the primary topic of debate in this thread became the victim's behaviour. I should be.

Honestly, and luckily, there's only a few people (in this thread) that are focusing on her response to his insanity.

Really if it wasn't for Jaffe coming in and spewing his bullshit around it probably would have turned out better.

 

[runnin_blue]

I have been here before thank you, but we can do without your condescending posts to stroke your own ego.

Likewise.

Replies like these are a lot easier then using critical thought and typing out a measured response I guess. If anything by your lack of engagement with the presented arguments, you are the one on a crusade.

 

[JDSN]

I don't think anyone in this thread has said that it's her fault, David certainly hasn't.

Of course, apparently "the signal" means a complete different thing now, but even if "the signal" suddenly means something different that reciprocity (it doesnt), putting 1% of the blame of this situation to her is already too.

I hear you brother/sister, but unfortunately the internet world is full of keyboard crusaders with as much spine as jelly. Tough on the keys, but couldn't look me in the eye.

Hahaha the hell..

 

[Zaph]

I don't think anyone in this thread has said that it's her fault, David certainly hasn't.

No, but in many male dominated industries, women often feel pressured to act a certain way for fear of being labelled as "that girl who always overreacts and is a killjoy". Some men then take advantage of the resulting perceived meekness by interpreting it as an opportunity to make advances.

You don't have to say the words "It's her fault!" to victim blame. But once you start defining what you think is the 'right thing to do' (which naturally varies form person to person) you're declaring the onus is now on someone who never asked to be put in the situation to begin with.

 

[godhard]

Sure but what I'm saying is I'm guessing she slept off the initial conversation but after reading the final bit she decided something had to be done about it. Something beyond telling him "that was inappropriate" because, come on, look at what he wrote.

Yep completely agree, I mean I've done stupid things when drunk but he sat there and typed out that whole paragraph, wtf was going through his mind at that point, obviously he was coherent enough to write that...

 

[2San]

Likewise.

Well yeah, I'm a lot nicer to people to people who are nice.

 

[runnin_blue]

Yep completely agree, I mean I've done stupid things when drunk but he sat there and typed out that whole paragraph, wtf was going through his mind at that point, obviously he was coherent enough to write that...

Yeah that's the weird thing. What a wanker.

Well yeah, I'm a lot nicer to people to people who are nice.

I am very nice. I also stand by my opinions and don't let people sway me

 

[AdventureRacing]

Bringing her actions into question is a big example of why this type of harassment is so hard to deal with. She is put into an incredibly awkward and uncomfortable position which has the potential to impact her personal and professional life. At best she gets out of it having just had to endure his cumbersome advances. At worst it potentially backfires and costs her a job or has the guy get aggressive with her or any other numbers of things.

Then she has to consider what people will make of her actions. That's my problem with what Jaffe is doing by questioning her actions even if he isn't defending the guy (even though if you read his words directly he basically is). It's just one more thing for someone to worry about in this situation, how others will judge her reaction to her situation. Especially when you're in a male dominated market with a noted history of bias against woman.

If Jaffe had been paying any attention for the last few years he would know that this is becoming more and more of a hot issue. Jumping on board so aggressively to play devils advocate isn't a good look and certainly isn't doing woman in the industry any favors.

Edit: Personally i'm more disturbed that this seems to be an ongoing thing (judging by that video long before his brothers death as well). Bringing that up in his apology is pretty damn low to me and makes him look even worse. A true apology would have just been him coming out and saying 'i know i fucked up, it was inappropriate and i'm sorry'. Perhaps he could have said he has dealt with some major personal issues that have affected him but directly bringing up his brothers suicide seems inappropriate.

 

[Mental Atrophy]

But once you start defining what you think is the 'right thing to do' (which naturally varies form person to person) you're declaring the onus is now on someone who never asked to be put in the situation to begin with.

Not necessarily. Don't over-extrapolate.

I also stand by my opinions and don't let people sway me

You should re-evaluate this position, because you open yourself up to being incorrect for the sake of stubborness. Always ingest data and re-evaluate, even if that data comes from other people.

 

[Jintor]

Not necessarily. Don't over-extrapolate.

Someone who does this may not intend to, but that's definitely how it can be perceived (and I would argue what is actually occurring, albeit without the intent to do so).

 

[marrec]

If Jaffe had been paying any attention for the last few years he would know that this is becoming more and more of a hot issue. Jumping on board so aggressively to play devils advocate isn't a good look and certainly isn't doing woman in the industry any favors.

This is kind of a critical juncture in the Video Games industry when it comes to gender relations. Jaffe could have been a reasonable voice in all of it and an example to future developers and project managers.

Instead, he decided to question the actions of a sexual harassment victim.

This is exactly why the it's called a struggle for progress. People like Jaffe make it so.

 

[Interfectum]

Bringing her actions into question is a big example of why this type of harassment is so hard to deal with. She is put into an incredibly awkward and uncomfortable position which has the potential to impact her personal and professional life. At best she gets out of it having just had to endure his cumbersome advances.

Yup and I think that almost happened. I don't think we would even be hearing about this conversation had he not left that additional message at 6 am. She had probably already dealt with the initial chat but after waking up to that she decided more action was needed.

 

[2San]

I am very nice. I also stand by my opinions and don't let people sway me

Well no point in discussing things with you then.

 

[AdventureRacing]

This is kind of a critical juncture in the Video Games industry when it comes to gender relations. Jaffe could have been a reasonable voice in all of it and an example to future developers and project managers.

Instead, he decided to question the actions of a sexual harassment victim.

This is exactly why the it's called a struggle for progress. People like Jaffe make it so.

Exactly. I'm not saying that Jaffe is a sexist asshole but his actions and comments do have a negative impact when he could have taken the chance to do something real positive. If he feels so strongly about womens right and women working in the industry he should have taken that road instead of the one he did.

 

[Timedog]

I punch dudes out All the time wanna compare forearm striations?