Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
Nice, more youtube exposure is surely a positive. Also I liked that TBFP video.
Indivisible: Valkyrie Profile/Metroid, Indiegogo, PC/Mac/Linux/PS4/XB1 -- funded!
- Thread starter HadesGigas
- Start date
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Pre-production is going to have a much smaller staff than actual production, plus not everyone that shows up on the credits is going to have worked on the game for the entire time. On the other hand, $40k/year is probably less than what people were making at Nintendo, even accounting for inflation.
Yes, but those people are still working there even if they aren't on the project yet. Seems reasonable to include them. As for the bolded, he touches on that in the video and singles out 23 from all the other names in the credits. It might be a bit long, but give the video a watch. Or just listen to it, since the video has nothing to do with the audio really.
He said he accounted for people in the credits that would not be part of the dev staff. Even so with pre-production being smaller actual working team you still have to pay for staff.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Yes, you still have to pay them, but that budget would go towards the project they were actively working on at the time. That's why big companies like Nintendo are better equipped to handle mid & large-sized projects - they can have somebody that's highly specialized like a concept artist or a full-time writer and have them jump between projects when they're needed. Smaller teams generally have people with multiple roles as full-time staff and hire contractors if they need someone more specialized who doesn't need to be working on the project for the entire of its development.
You're getting a little lost in the weeds here.
It was a general example to give some budgetary context and show that $1.5M or $3.5M is not really that much when it comes to game development in reality.
If we did what Mike was proposing for our game, the budget would be more like $4.4M using the general $10,000/man-month metric. But we were able to get it down to $3.5M because of pre-production, ramping staff, etc.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Right, I just wanted to make it clear that pre-production is very different than production (hence the different names). In its simplest form, pre-production could literally just be one person writing a design document. With a bigger production, you might have more staff, especially if you're making a prototype, but it's still going to be drastically smaller than full production would be.
$3.5 million is reasonable (or if anything on the low side) for what's being proposed here. Have you considered lowering the scope at all? 10 hour game instead of 20-30 hour game, Vanillaware style art and animation rather than fighting game animation, that sort of thing? Could drastically lower the required budget while still keeping the essence of the gameplay intact.
Because that's not the game we want to make? And we're pretty deadset against chopping our vision up into little pieces like Red Ash and Shenmue did. We don't think that's a good way to get a complete product. There will always be compromises, but starting with that is a big one.
And Vanillaware style really isn't much cheaper, if at all. While it's less in the way of total pixels drawn, manipulating the puppet bits is still very time consuming. And then they draw new ones for different angles, etc. to try and mask the puppetry. It's an entirely different skillset, just about.
Even if we thought that would lead to some savings, it means retraining our entire staff in a new way of doing things. And developing a new art pipeline. And buying a lot of new software. And hiring and learning the strengths and weaknesses of an all new pool of contractors. And giving up a lot of quality and control.
So it's a huge logistical investment with returns that are questionable at best.
Also, the boss in the prototype was done "Vanillaware style" in Flash by Zone and it was still really time-consuming. We will be doing that for larger monsters because drawing them isn't feasible, but based on our experiences with that, doing the entire game that way wouldn't make sense.
We'll probably go dormant for a bit, at the very least, while we try to get something else going.
What happens from there is hard to know? Our guys are in demand for freelance work, so a lot of them could probably hang on with that, but if it does on too long people will need to start looking for other work.
Aren't you guys also working on Skullgirls Vita as well?
It's almost done, and it's being worked on by an external contractor.
Tried the prototype and the battle system is so much fun, definitely a breath of fresh air. I also love the character designs and animations. I'm surprised that a prototype of an indie title 2+ years away from release controls this smoothly.
Only thing that wasn't up to snuff though is the music.
So yeah, definitely backed.
Only thing that wasn't up to snuff though is the music.
So yeah, definitely backed.
This is the last complaint I expected to hear.
If you do record an "official" version, please address this question as I've seen it come up quite a few times in response to this video: (devil's advocate, so don't blame me for any patronising/ignorant assertions)
Mike Z says the crowdfunding well has been poisoned by big publishers/devs who've used crowdfunding campaigns as an "interest check" or a glorified marketing drive, even though they could easily afford to make the game with resources they already have
How is Indivisible any different? You have a publisher that could feasibly pay for the entire production--why aren't they doing that? Doesn't foisting so much of the risk onto Lab Zero (and letting you guys take the fall if it fails) make this proposition just as skeevy as some of the others that have appeared recently?
Moreover, if this crowdfunding deal was something you proposed in order to get 505 on board: why? Mike mentions increased control over marketing/PR in that video; is that really a worthwhile tradeoff for having to fund almost half the game yourselves? I'm sure there are other perks that come with the deal (including favourable royalties, as Mike mentioned) but if your studio is really so desperate, what drove you to take such a risky gamble instead of settling for more traditional dev/publisher arrangement?
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
I'm guessing the short answer to those questions is that Skullgirls had publisher problems so they didn't want to be fully attached to a publisher for their new game. But on the other hand, there are only 5 projects that I know of that have raised over $3.5 million and all of them had big developers behind them doing spiritual revivals of their old work so asking for $3.5 million outright via crowdfunding was unlikely to go well (especially since those projects raised over $3.5 million via use of stretch goals above potentially misleading initial goals). Hence they decided on the publisher+crowdfunding joint approach that they ended up doing.
505 did that deal before, didn't they? These publishers know that they can resort to Kickstarter to help alleviate the pressure with using it as an interest poll, extra money, etc.
Yeah, I want to address some of this stuff in the new video, but I'll answer it here, too.
The main difference is that this is how 505 typically does business on all of its projects - it's sort of occupies the midpoint between publisher and distributor. Deep Silver, on the other hand, is a more traditional publisher and typically fully funds everything.
505 prefers this on every project because not only does it reduce their risk, having some skin in the game tends to make people work harder and support the product more. Which is something we strongly agree with and believe in.
So in most of those cases, the developer has its own money or gets it from investors. We chose to go with crowdfunding because we'd had some success with it before, and (apparently incorrectly) felt that after our Skullgirls experience people would take the time to read and understand the budget, etc. We managed to raise $830k for 5 DLC characters for a niche fighting game, so asking for less than double that for a full game seemed reasonable at the time. And this plan was set into motion long before Yooka-Laylee, Bloodstained, or Shenmue 3 crowdfunding happened.
And the deal is much, much better for Lab Zero in the long run this way than if we were to do a traditional publishing deal because we're taking on risk. Like, we could potentially avoid having to crowdfund again. AND we like doing the community feedback thing to make the game better, and crowdfunding is really the only reasonable way to do that.
SolarPowered
Member
Finished it yesterday and I can say it is easily the best LP for this prototype. They showed some competence regarding the battle system, talked about some inspirations/influences (Ajna the avatar? Amazing) and balanced it with the laughs excellently. It's nice that someone else also recognized the lighting system and how much it adds to the mood and handrawn models. We even got to see Mike Z's indivisible cat haha.
Boss Battle:
https://youtu.be/ZJUFNAZzhUM?t=22m48s
Indivisible Cat (lmao @ 41:50):
https://youtu.be/ZJUFNAZzhUM?t=36m20s
Welcome to gaf. It's nice to see more IRC folk here.
Try not to get banned as a junior cuz it's a perma.
This was a good video. I like that 505's involvement simplified the crowdfund budget by eating up a bunch of extra costs like backer rewards, testing, localizations (and maybe porting?) and such. Yet people still find a way to complain.
Yeah, text is more digestible and easier to share. It would be greatly appreciated.
Kushi and Razmi are easily the top two incarnations right now. I like that they don't have to be sexy in the least to be this popular too.
zero shift
Banned
IIRC animation was only about 30% of the total cost of making a character in Skullgirls. Though I'm not sure how tied staff salaries are to the amount of animation that needs to be done.
Well, that's just for the contracting to finalize things.
We still do all the pre-production and design work in-house, and we still do a fair amount of final animation and clean-up in-house.
For example, on Skullgirls, the animations you see all the time like walks, idles, intros, outros, etc. are usually done completely in-house to set the tone for all the contractors.
zero shift
Banned
I see. So that would mean that animation constitutes ~ 50 to 60% on a given character.
And design. Because in a fighting game, the design is reliant on the animation and vice-versa.
So Mike plans out the poses, angles, etc. and then animation creates the keyframes. Mike puts them into the game to time them out and figure out how many between frames that move, etc. needs.
Because attacks for an RPG don't need to be so meticulously timed, the design/animation iteration time is much, much faster. Definitely wouldn't have been able to do as much as we did in the Indivisible prototype if every frame required the amount of design thought as a fighting game.
zero shift
Banned
It is still pretty crazy that as laborious as animation is, it is still only around half the cost of the entire process. Making video games that don't look like cheap flash knockoffs is expensive.
Here's the new Incarnation: Yan!
"Considered an abomination, Yan was abandoned by her parents as a child and left to fend for herself on the streets of the capital. She adapted her own fighting style suited to her body to survive her harsh circumstances, and in doing so developed a profoundly natural flow and grace.
Her skills and potential were quickly noticed by the head of a popular ballet troupe, who took her in and raised her. Even with this good fortune, she was still not safe: some of the other dancers regarded her with disgust and more than a little jealousy. Keeping her spirits high, she rose above all of this to become the troupe's star performer.
One day, Yan learns her dance troupe is aligned with the revolutionary army, and are planning to assassinate the emperor of the Jade Dynasty. Yearning only to dance, Yan wants no part of this plot. Yet, fighting may be her only choice."
"Considered an abomination, Yan was abandoned by her parents as a child and left to fend for herself on the streets of the capital. She adapted her own fighting style suited to her body to survive her harsh circumstances, and in doing so developed a profoundly natural flow and grace.
Her skills and potential were quickly noticed by the head of a popular ballet troupe, who took her in and raised her. Even with this good fortune, she was still not safe: some of the other dancers regarded her with disgust and more than a little jealousy. Keeping her spirits high, she rose above all of this to become the troupe's star performer.
One day, Yan learns her dance troupe is aligned with the revolutionary army, and are planning to assassinate the emperor of the Jade Dynasty. Yearning only to dance, Yan wants no part of this plot. Yet, fighting may be her only choice."
Wasn't a hundred percent on-board till I read that character synopsis. I really like what's going on with her background and her story. And the diversity among the Incarnations thus far has been crazy.
Design-wise, I dig her hair especially, though the shoes I am, uh, less convinced about.
Design-wise, I dig her hair especially, though the shoes I am, uh, less convinced about.
The shoes will make more sense after Alex posts some of the concept groundwork stuff, I think.
I love her design - the palette, hair, overall silhouette; everything works really well. Though I'm not much of a fan of the shoes, either. Some mutilated ballerina feet would have been much more memorable.
Once you realise the secret reason for her clothing, you will feel ashamed of your words and deeds?
Once you realise the secret reason for her clothing, you will feel ashamed of your words and deeds?
zero shift
Banned
Is she suppose to have arms? Because I can't see any arms.
The Yo Tornado
Member
I don't think she does. I'm really excited to see her battle animations. I want to see how they make that work.
Should the new Incarnations be posted in the OP? Lab Zero's designs are my favorite part of their work, and I feel like highlighting that would help make a positive impression.
Should the new Incarnations be posted in the OP? Lab Zero's designs are my favorite part of their work, and I feel like highlighting that would help make a positive impression.
She was born without them and abandoned for it, going by the character bio.
Thomasorus
Member
My opinion but remember when the vote for SG characters happened? When Alex posted concept art of moves for some characters, they raised in the polls and people talked a lot about them. Maybe posting both the art and the concepts would help raise interest as it helps to see how a character moves.
SolarPowered
Member
All legs? All right
Seriously, I'm a big fan of leggy ladies and she's got them in spades. I bet the shoes give her some insane lift or vertical action that I look forward to in battle. The incarnations that aren't fully colored yet look very very nice with some actual color on them now too. If this were a fighting game it'd be a damn strong cast so far.
If there is one thing Lab Zero does right it is making characters interesting enough that you can even recognize them by silhouette instantly.
Seriously, I'm a big fan of leggy ladies and she's got them in spades. I bet the shoes give her some insane lift or vertical action that I look forward to in battle. The incarnations that aren't fully colored yet look very very nice with some actual color on them now too. If this were a fighting game it'd be a damn strong cast so far.
Yep
If there is one thing Lab Zero does right it is making characters interesting enough that you can even recognize them by silhouette instantly.
They can do those one a time after all the incarnations are revealed. They gotta leave some stuff for the latter part of the campaign.
Thomasorus
Member
Yup but it's going back and forth with characters and creating a mess. Maybe at midpoint between each incarnation? That might help people not 100% convinced by the previous reveal?
Really cool design, and I like that she's an amputee. It's rare that you find characters missing limbs with no magical/mechanical replacement.
Oh man that's gold
What a superb design. Video-games really lack "handi-capable" characters that are badass as well, so it's really great to see Yan added to this already really diverse roster.
I know a lot of people hate on Tumblr and the groups that make it up, but given the diversity levels of the roster, I could see Indivisible going over really well with them. Could be a nice source of money.
I know a lot of people hate on Tumblr and the groups that make it up, but given the diversity levels of the roster, I could see Indivisible going over really well with them. Could be a nice source of money.
In the right hands, the direction the game's taking would be exactly what those groups claim to want to support; for better or worse. I guess if it helps them get funding, it's worth it - they just need to market that angle a little more. Are there any gay characters? That helped Gone Home and Undertale get some attention, however well-deserved.
The media some of the popular Youtube personalities have put out have certainly raised the baseline daily rate but we still need more. Is getting in touch (in a non-dogpiling way) with Pewdiepie something that might be useful? He's the only big name YT personality I know of (though I'll be honest in that I never heard of the dude until that South Park episode but that was clearly me just me living under a rock) that I don't think has mentioned Indivisble aside from Total Biscuit who of course has more important things to deal with currently.
What other ways are you guys working on to put more eyes on this? Again, I think the LZ streams are cool but I feel a lot of the people watching them would be those who already know about and/or have contributed to the campaign.
I could have also sworn I heard rumors of fanart and/or speed-running contests (another means to drum up interest) but I haven't seen anything about them so maybe I imagined that?
To that end I think this suggestion from earlier in the thread might be a great idea:
Gotta figure out a way to do it in a non-cynical way fashion though.
So next up is the "King Kittan" sentai dude and then after that is.....the Amazon bae? Or maybe that European archer I think I recall from the trailer?
I think I'd prefer just straight silhouettes ala the Skullgirls character reveals rather then them becoming basically illegible after the 3rd or so new character. I mean I still think a lot of mystery is preserved with just the silhouettes but sketchy chalk doesn't really give much to go on.
What other ways are you guys working on to put more eyes on this? Again, I think the LZ streams are cool but I feel a lot of the people watching them would be those who already know about and/or have contributed to the campaign.
I could have also sworn I heard rumors of fanart and/or speed-running contests (another means to drum up interest) but I haven't seen anything about them so maybe I imagined that?
To that end I think this suggestion from earlier in the thread might be a great idea:
Gotta figure out a way to do it in a non-cynical way fashion though.
So next up is the "King Kittan" sentai dude and then after that is.....the Amazon bae? Or maybe that European archer I think I recall from the trailer?
I think I'd prefer just straight silhouettes ala the Skullgirls character reveals rather then them becoming basically illegible after the 3rd or so new character. I mean I still think a lot of mystery is preserved with just the silhouettes but sketchy chalk doesn't really give much to go on.
Wow, I missed some of these! Scythe dude is sweet, and colored hair girl is THE BEST. HGGGGNNNNN
The Yo Tornado
Member
All of the incarnations so far have been ones usable in battle, right? Because I would hate not being able to use that big ass falcon.
The motives behind it don't matter, only whether or not the initiative is sufficiently opaque enough to seem like actual goodwill. There's at least some genuine demand for representation, and a game like this is in the perfect position to milk it as hard as humanly possible.
I think they've said that the non-playable Incarnations will only be revealed later into the campaign.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
New Eurogamer article up about the costs: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-10-19-skullgirls-dev-explains-why-indivisible-costs-usd3-5m