TeamGhobad
Banned
4tflops, less ram, lower clocked cpu. sole purpose of lockhart is to disrupt the generation.
Inside the target specs of the next Xbox 'Project Scarlett,' 'Anaconda', and 'Lockhart' (WindowsCentral.com )
4tflops, less ram, lower clocked cpu. sole purpose of lockhart is to disrupt the generation.
eastwood333
Banned
Disrupt the market?
Its to get as many as possible into their ecosystem who can't afford 500 bucks. And to subscribe to gamepass etc... Its not rocket science
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Cpu will be the same, less ram is fine as you're using lower quality / lower mips with less ram requirement for 1080p over 4k?
Again, what are you on about...?
Why do I have a feeling if Sony had this plan it would be a different song...?
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TeamGhobad
Banned
stop with the fanboy crap, i haven't bought a sony product since the ps2.
RaySoft
Member
At least try to understand someones view first, before you lash out like that. You only make a fool out of yourself.
TeamGhobad
Banned
yep everybody to buy an underpowered POS so the differences between the ps5 and anaconda get smaller.
I'm guessing if lockheart exists it has same features as anaconda with 2/3 CUs. It makes little sense to design 2 chips. If a anaconda has to many failed CUs it bins lockheart. Also gives casual full experience at 1080p. It be brilliant actually if they can eat the loss on it to sell at 249.99 or 299.99 with 6 months gamepass ultimate.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Then you're just clueless? I have no idea.
Look I'm one of the people who thinks this is pointless, so you're preaching to the wrong person here. But the things you are saying make about as much sense as a chocolate fireplace.
It's not difficult to see what they are doing, and how it will work. That's easy, and has no bearing whatsoever on the quality of scarlet games or their comparisons to PS5. Xbox games can still look better or on par, with no cut backs.
This is simple shit.
Now, whether they do because of artistic talent or design choices is a different beast. MS have yet to really prove they can match Sonys first party output in terms of technical achievement in game design. Gears 5 was a huge step in the right direction but it's one game.
But Lockhart has a point, even if I myself see no need for it. It's to get cheaper consoles the homes of people that still play the same games, just with cut backs.
It's extremely easy, and very basic, to get that sort of setup working. I've already explained previously than downsampling is easier and better than up. Nobody in their right mind would think to make a game for Lockhart and then forget about scarlet. Possible, but unlikely.
This is all very basic and anybody with an ounce of understanding on games design knows this.
Also... this whole thread about about a comment some asshat from kotaku made. The same person who has proven time and time again to not only be about as factual as a wet fart, but also a MASSIVE Sony fanboy who cries anytime MS speak and essentially sucks off the almighty hypnoCerni.
Look I'm one of the people who thinks this is pointless, so you're preaching to the wrong person here. But the things you are saying make about as much sense as a chocolate fireplace.
It's not difficult to see what they are doing, and how it will work. That's easy, and has no bearing whatsoever on the quality of scarlet games or their comparisons to PS5. Xbox games can still look better or on par, with no cut backs.
This is simple shit.
Now, whether they do because of artistic talent or design choices is a different beast. MS have yet to really prove they can match Sonys first party output in terms of technical achievement in game design. Gears 5 was a huge step in the right direction but it's one game.
But Lockhart has a point, even if I myself see no need for it. It's to get cheaper consoles the homes of people that still play the same games, just with cut backs.
It's extremely easy, and very basic, to get that sort of setup working. I've already explained previously than downsampling is easier and better than up. Nobody in their right mind would think to make a game for Lockhart and then forget about scarlet. Possible, but unlikely.
This is all very basic and anybody with an ounce of understanding on games design knows this.
Also... this whole thread about about a comment some asshat from kotaku made. The same person who has proven time and time again to not only be about as factual as a wet fart, but also a MASSIVE Sony fanboy who cries anytime MS speak and essentially sucks off the almighty hypnoCerni.
You think that a 4TF console with the same CPU is going to stop a 12TF console with that same CPU from running games at 60fps .
It's up to the devs if they want to push a game to 60 fps on the hardware or not
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Price is key. Utterly and absolutely.
The high spec machine NEEDS to either match or exceed PS5 spec while also matching or beating them at price.
But Lockhart is a different beast, as it will be seen by everybody as the gimped system, the shit tier one, regardless. It will need to come in a LOT cheaper to even make a mark. Essentially I see this as the same situation as when the 360 and the 360 Arcade. No bugger wanted the Arcade because the system wasn't as good and the price still too high.
It's the same only worse this time.
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GHG
Member
Honestly I think it's somewhat of a contingency product for them.
If Sony come out with a product that's cheaper than Scarlett then they have Lockhart to fall back on as a "cheaper next gen solution" from a price war perspective.
If the PS5 is more powerful than Scarlett then this product exists to drag the baseline of the generation down.
Either way, it's clearly not a product that focuses on raising the bar in any way.
Rolling_Start
Banned
Given that the market will be lead by PS5 and Anaconda, it's more likely games will migrate to those as the target platforms and scale up and down accordingly.
If the featureset of the GPU is the same, you can do the same things just with a lower resolutions / lod. If these specs are true, then the CPU side of things will more or less just work.
Coming up with a new balance of settings for various features (perhaps even tweaked on a per scene or asset level) might be a "pain in the ass" but it's also eminently doable and doesn't need to compromise the game.
When Death Stranding is running on PC, and playable on an AMD APU, I think this will become more apparent to folks.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Shhh... stop talking sense...
Except I see it as an easy sell to people who don't have a 4k tv. You tell em why pay for what your not using. It is not gimped if you have a 1080p tv if they do it right anaconda at 1080p to get people into the ecosystem. I'll pass judgment on it being gimped when we get full specs of both.
RaySoft
Member
The point is that since One S is the base model, the only thing you _can_ do on Anaconda is the same way PC have been doing for years vs Consoles.. More effects, higher framerates and resolution. But the overall world design, i.e. complexity of the gameworld/simulations of real world physics etc., would always stay the same.
On the other hand, if Anaconda was the lead (and only) plattform for this game, the game world would have been much larger, more complex npc ai, more destructability etc. and even other stuff that we can't even dream up yet. There would also be no overhead. Devs would be able to dream big instead of just latching on some neat effects and stuff.
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They have the same CPU how will Lockhart change the size of the game world?
Mass Shift
Member
Or they could just use the 5500M. Seriously, MS could go mobile with this if they want to. Shoot, this probably IS Lockhart.
Rolling_Start
Banned
Or they could just use the 5500M. Seriously, MS could go mobile with this if they want to. Shoot, this probably IS Lockhart.
Wouldn't be surprised if it's very similar to that. Clock it down a little to save power and BW, use a faster grade of GDDR6 to give a little more BW still, and bung a CPU on it.
I'm still wondering if the CPU for both Scarlett devices is going to be a Zen 2 chiplet. Main benefit would be increasing yields of the "main" chip as it's smaller and a dead CPU core doesn't waste an entire chip, and being able to hoover up low clocked Zen 2 chiplets from AMD for Lockhart. Downside would be higher packaging costs (and associated risks) and more power on off die interconnects.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
RaySoft
Member
So you think overall world complexity is just CPU bound? That is extremely old fashioned view. GPU's, are in this day and age, also taking on a job as a co-processor. It's not just a rasterizer anymore. It's async compute are also used for different complex calculations, off-loading the cpu (and doing a much better job at it than a cpu would do anyways) By your comment, that thinking are more grounded in the '90's. Hardware design has changed over the years, it's much easier today to draw more performance out of the system without micromanaging everything. It's clear that the hardware guys and the programmers are actually talking to eachother now.
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Gamernyc78
Banned
Not sure, but a good question... why do you assume that?
Bcus of his name of course. We all know he's an Xbox fanatic and any criticism agai st such leads to these conspiracy theory reactions. Even in the past with cross gen games ppl from all camps were dying for tht to end so devs would develop to systems ability. It is another reason ppl prefer exclusives bcus the dev can focus on one architecture and code to the metal on tht system.
Like i don't get ppls defensiveness over an inanimate object.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Ok pal. Ok. Hows this for a conspiracy: It's "because".
Also, there's a difference between being "defensive" and being "factual", and most of the tosh people are spouting in this thread is just that, rubbish. People with no idea how things work are just spouting anything to defend their plastic box. Meanwhile I'm a fanatic, because I've provided examples, explanations, and evidence.
So, yeah, again... Ok pal. Your past 20 posts are all defending sony, slagging xbox and Nintendo, and being a general illiterate. So excuse me if I just place you on ignore, dear.
Also, there's a difference between being "defensive" and being "factual", and most of the tosh people are spouting in this thread is just that, rubbish. People with no idea how things work are just spouting anything to defend their plastic box. Meanwhile I'm a fanatic, because I've provided examples, explanations, and evidence.
So, yeah, again... Ok pal. Your past 20 posts are all defending sony, slagging xbox and Nintendo, and being a general illiterate. So excuse me if I just place you on ignore, dear.
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Gamernyc78
Banned
What are you like 99? Lol obviously I take grammatical short cuts bcussss I'm typing on a phone. But you got me buddy, pseudo syntax, grammar nazi.
No, my twenty posts are based on consensus of evidence not some weird fan love to an Inanimate object and weird defense obligation. If most leakers were saying PS5 was weaker I'd be OK with it and not trying my hardest to build a defense. Also im just pointing out the fanatics tht act like ppl don't know their name already.
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Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
I'm also replying on a phone. Nobody is their right mind types like that anymore on a phone, unless you're a 16 year old with a Nokia from 1997.
But as a die hard Xbox fanatic who as spent the last week playing Nioh constantly, I'll just laugh and let you carry on with whatever it is you're doing.
But as a die hard Xbox fanatic who as spent the last week playing Nioh constantly, I'll just laugh and let you carry on with whatever it is you're doing.
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Gamernyc78
Banned
Sure buddy.
TLZ
Banned
Don't be an asshole dude. Txt spk doesn't mean he's an illiterate.
Gamernyc78
Banned
Rolling_Start
Banned
Actually most games still do all their simulation side stuff on the CPU. And even if you start to move things onto the GPU, a 4TF+ Lockhart should have significant compute power to use for none graphics purposes while still running games at 1/4 res of Anaconda. [Edit: Navi apparently focuses more on the graphics pipleline than compute, in contrast to Vega, so I wouldn't assume the future is soon going to be GPU compute bound for gameplay]
Also bear in mind that all PC games have to scale across a range of GPUs, where you have PCIe BW and latency to contend with if you're going to have GPU compute factor in to gameplay critical elements.
Gameplay critical GPU compute would need to move massively beyond where it currently is for something like an RX5500 to be unable to even run a game.
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RaySoft
Member
And that's my case right there. You actually sis a much better job at it than I did, so thank you.
This is more prevlent on the PC side, since you have to take into account all the different specs out there, so you really can't start to specialize task for the ACU's etc. Therefore they're still doing most of this stuff on the CPU, hence it's holding back new and innovative ways to program different aspects of the game engine, causing overhead, wich is waisted potential power.
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You could then the failed anaconda chips are tossed. Digital foundry destroys the lockheart version of every game as gimped with no next generation lighting. While ps5 and anaconda get huge performance boosts from vrs which next engines will be built around along other features of rdna2. Lockheart versions get destroyed by digital foundry for bad performance. It make lockheart completely unattractive. If it is a anaconda with 1/3 the CUs it is attractive and could get market share vs a POS.Or they could just use the 5500M. Seriously, MS could go mobile with this if they want to. Shoot, this probably IS Lockhart.
Rolling_Start
Banned
Well multiplatform and Xbox games have to run on PC anyway, so PC has to be a consideration in any "lower limit" of gameplay critical performance.
And even if you could integrate large amounts of GPU compute into core gameplay (and not just fairly obvious stuff like updating nodes for pathfinding in changing environments) you have the additional challenge of making things fun.
So far, I've seen nothing more impressive than RDR2 in terms of open world, even including PS4 exclusives.
Rolling_Start
Banned
... wat.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
True. It's not as bad as adding lots of pointless fullstops………. at least...…...
Nobody in the public has ANY idea on the specs. For all we know the xbox could be twice as powerful. Or the PS5 totally dust it. Nobody knows. This whole discussion is about technical aspects and what Lockhart is, with what it can do. And so far, you've contributed precisely zero to the conversation.
Rolling_Start
Banned
Gavon West
Spread's Cheeks for Intrusive Ads
Your point is mute and falls as flat as your post. You didnt really think this through did you?
Because they have a second console doesnt mean Anaconda is gonna suffer or devs wont be able to capitilaze on its power. Its always and/or with gamers when its really this and that or, why not both. You guys have NO imagination whatsoever.
The Lockhart is simply for those who want to jump in on next gen who dont give a shit about having the most powerful specs. The hardware will still sport most of the latest technologies found within the Anaconda, just at about 1080p or 1440p. It will still load ridiculously fast thanks to the SSD, the CPU will share the same as the Anaconda and PS5, it'll probably be discless (more than likely for the Gamepass crowd) and offer a much better experience than the X, guaranteed. No need to downgrade for devs, none of that.
You guys keep spouting the same bullshit when PC devs have been porting games for years with the PC version still the top-tier version of the entire lot. I'm no dev and I dont work in the game develpment world. But Got Damn! It's not that hard to see why Micrsoft is going this route. And it wont hinder game visuals in the least if devs have to port down to Lockhart as well. If you have the Anaconda, you'll have the very best version of any one game there is. It's pretty simple. It's the ignorance that keeps getting pushed around by so called "gaming enthusiasts that complicate shit way more than it is. Jesus Christ....
I mean that if you have a 1080p display and want to game at 60 FPS at maximum settings, then a 1060 will satisfy this in the majority of cases, so the benefits of upgrading to a faster GPU are marginal. And if you go for anything much slower, like a 1050, the performance won't be adequate at those quality settings. Hence the 1060 is the "sweet spot" in this comparison, because it's the most effective way to spend your money, if you play at 1080p.
Equally, if you want to play games at "next gen" quality settings, but you don't have a 4K TV, a One S isn't going to cut it. Already games are being reduced to 720p with severely degraded performance and/or quality settings, and we aren't even in the next generation yet.
Your argument seems to assume that people either are completely indifferent to how a game looks and performs (so long as they can "play" it in some minimal sense), or they want the best possible graphics and are prepared to spend any amount of money to get them. So in this world presumably people either play PC games on integrated graphics or they own a 2080 Ti.
Negotiator
Banned
Let's see some modern AAA games:
Gears 5 Optimized for AMD Through Asynchronous Compute and Multithreaded Command Buffering
Gears 5 will be optimized for AMD hardware thanks to features like Asynchronous Compute and Multithreaded Command Buffering.
wccftech.com
Nintendo Switch Tech Speculation discussion
16 MB is enough for 720p forward rendering with no MSAA. 720P RGBA16f color buffer + 32b Z buffer = 11 MB. But the same cache is also used for texture sampling and geometry (vertex and index buffer loads). 16 MB cache will trash for sure. 32 MB cache would be much better. Intel chose 64 MB and...
forum.beyond3d.com
What are the chances of Lockhart matching XB1X in GPU-bound games and delivering 4k60 gaming?
GPU compute is a fad... said no serious AAA game developer!
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Rolling_Start
Banned
Let's see some modern AAA games:
Gears 5 Optimized for AMD Through Asynchronous Compute and Multithreaded Command Buffering
Gears 5 will be optimized for AMD hardware thanks to features like Asynchronous Compute and Multithreaded Command Buffering.
Nintendo Switch Tech Speculation discussion
16 MB is enough for 720p forward rendering with no MSAA. 720P RGBA16f color buffer + 32b Z buffer = 11 MB. But the same cache is also used for texture sampling and geometry (vertex and index buffer loads). 16 MB cache will trash for sure. 32 MB cache would be much better. Intel chose 64 MB and...
What are the chances of Lockhart matching XB1X in GPU-bound games and delivering 4k60 gaming?
GPU compute is a fad... said no serious AAA game developer!
You bell-end. I never said GPU compute wasn't a thing for graphics.
Only one of those posts relates to gameplay, and it has an undefined level of compute involved (hint, it's necessarily small and in one of the areas I talked about as being compute friendly).
It's otherwise all graphics related stuff that can scale with resolution and quality.
Spending so much time gathering links without understanding they fundamentally support my entire position ... god damn it you've given me indigestion.
Negotiator
Banned
Bell-end? Welcome to my ignore list, idiot.
ps: I didn't know physics and AI weren't gameplay-related tasks. Your reading comprehension sucks big time.
bitbydeath
Member
You're missing the bigger picture.
Upping resolution and
features doesn't mean you can go from this:
To this:
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Nobody ups the resolution. You go DOWN and lower quality.
bitbydeath
Member
And that wouldn't work either. This isn't a resolution thing. It's a graphics style which is the very core of the engine.
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
I've been working with scalable engines for 20 years. I know what's possible and what isn't. The bigger issue people had was the cpu but that looks to be the same in both.
But you can make anything run on anything, with work. The point of Lockhart is, at its very core, that you can take a cutting edge product and reduce it in several ways until it will run on a lower spec system. Again, the only issue before was cpu interaction, however that looks to be like a cows opinion now. Reducing from 4k to 1080p, without changing anything else at all, already reduces vram utilisation. But loading in lower mips as well as cutting back in other areas would easily fit it into lower memory requirements.
This isn't rocket science, it's basic square peg, round hole stuff. The square peg won't fit so shave the corners off and it does. But the round peg will always fit just fine.
But you can make anything run on anything, with work. The point of Lockhart is, at its very core, that you can take a cutting edge product and reduce it in several ways until it will run on a lower spec system. Again, the only issue before was cpu interaction, however that looks to be like a cows opinion now. Reducing from 4k to 1080p, without changing anything else at all, already reduces vram utilisation. But loading in lower mips as well as cutting back in other areas would easily fit it into lower memory requirements.
This isn't rocket science, it's basic square peg, round hole stuff. The square peg won't fit so shave the corners off and it does. But the round peg will always fit just fine.
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Xenon
Member
Which makes sense from a single consumers point of view. But unfortunately they're not going after a single consumer. To me this makes perfect sense.
As long as the same CPU type is in there I think we're good. Multi platforms are used to being developed for multiple systems and we'll be fine. Microsoft has been working on PC / console for its last major titles and there been no complaints as far as looks. So again no problem. But both console manufacturers have been working off of 2 system specs for the last few years. Continuing listen to the next gen seems like a no-brainer
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bitbydeath
Member
So can you still play the latest games on that 20 year old hardware?
Gavin Stevens
Formerly 'o'dium'
Nobody is talking about the original Xbox one S though, we are talking about Lockhart.
And i doubt that you will be playing scarlet games on an S, not without x cloud.
But yeah, for most games, you actually COULD do enough changes to get them working on a base S. Not all mind you, and they wouldn't be pretty.
But this is the issue... nobody knows what they actually mean, if that statement was even accurate at all. There's so much being thrown around here. This discussion is about what Lockhart can do, not what the S can do. The S is a total bag of bollocks that should never have released in that state.
bitbydeath
Member
Both Phil and Matt have confirmed Xbox One S will be able to play Scarlett games next-gen.
Rolling_Start
Banned
Actually, depending on what the physics influences, it may well not be gameplay related. In many cases GPU physics is about effects and not core gameplay.
And I actually pointed out that AI was gameplay related. That's why I talked about it.
Still, you were looking for a way out after fucking up so badly, so a girlish tantrum announcing an ignore list then trying to have a revisionist last word seems right up your street.
Bell-end indeed.
Calling yourself N Negotiator and then running away from unilaterally inflicted criticism is all kinds of special.
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Rolling_Start
Banned
Fuck me.
They have acknowledged there are some cross gen games. They have said nothing more.
Booty has even stated that some games have to scale between X1 and Scarlett at launch, but committed to nothing more, indicating that after the launch window game will start to separate wrt generations support.
bitbydeath
Member
They haven't acknowledged a timeframe for cross-gen expiring. It may end at three years or five years or last the entire generation. We don't know.