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Interesting video on street harrassment
- Thread starter Bleepey
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Devolution
Member
Even a bar isn't an excuse to throw off that behavior as far as I'm concerned. Women shouldn't be afraid that if they go to a bar they'll have to listen to eighteen guys talk about how hot they are or catcall. A guy can still take the time to show some simple graces and treat a person right. Go up to that person and try to have an intimate conversation; and if they turn you down walk away. You don't need to single them out from across the bar and talk about what a fine ass they have.
Well no a bar isn't an excuse, my point was you're really out of line if she's trying to get somewhere and you're interjecting your desires into what's obviously her trying to go about her day. Save your comments for a bar and think hard about what's about to come out of your mouth. I don't know why I have to elaborate on that, I think it's pretty obvious I wouldn't like the same comments in a bar.
I got a friend who likes to make kissy faces at women through windows, especially in the car at red lights and stuff. Mostly in like a playful fashion. He says the physical barrier of the glass makes women comfortable with it, presumably because they will often laugh or make faces back. Is this harassment?
It can be, yeah. The important thing about harassment is that it's unwanted. Some women might find kissy faces cute, but other women might find them intimidating or bothersome. If you're walking home after working a long night shift, you'd probably rather just be left alone.
Your friend doesn't mean to intimidate when he does that, but many women are used to being hollered at since adolescence. They might mistake his playful intentions for something darker.
The Librarian
Banned
I understand what the video is saying. I'm just speaking from my experiences. Its hard for me to not believe looks don't matter when women I have said hi to a respectful way look at me in disgust only to have my brother be a block away and get her number even though he starts the conversation by yelling out loudly at her, "I like the way your ass works those jeans." I'm not saying that there aren't going to be women that hate it no matter what. I just don't believe that all women would hate a catcall if it came from a hot guy like I am getting from this video.
Hint: For starters, not all women like men.
I understand what the video is saying. I'm just speaking from my experiences. Its hard for me to not believe looks don't matter when women I have said hi to a respectful way look at me in disgust only to have my brother be a block away and get her number even though he starts the conversation by yelling out loudly at her, "I like the way your ass works those jeans." I'm not saying that there aren't going to be women that hate it no matter what. I just don't believe that all women would hate a catcall if it came from a hot guy like I am getting from this video.
Yes. Some women will show disgust from catcalls from ugly men and take it as a compliment from some men. Not all women are the same and react differently to catcalls. That is an obvious point that serves to muddy the situation more than to clarify things. Being treated worse due to being unattractive sucks and is rather unfair when you're just conducting typical social behavior. But that is a separate issue to the specific issue being discussed here.
How do you make everyone happy?
Nobody said interacting with other human beings would be easy
I understand what the video is saying. I'm just speaking from my experiences. Its hard for me to not believe looks don't matter when women I have said hi to a respectful way look at me in disgust only to have my brother be a block away and get her number even though he starts the conversation by yelling out loudly at her, "I like the way your ass works those jeans." I'm not saying that there aren't going to be women that hate it no matter what. I just don't believe that all women would hate a catcall if it came from a hot guy like I am getting from this video.
Chars, you're almost certainly right. There probably ARE some women who enjoy and get off on it. But unless you can tell those women simply by looking, you're running roughshod over women to serve yourself. I can think of no society in which that is respectable. Unless you're right every time, you're scaring and upsetting women on the off chance you get one that responds, which is putting your needs above every one else's. We generally think that makes someone a selfish dick.
Of course aggressive cat calls and whatnot are unacceptable, but if a really hot chick walked by and I threw a "Nice" her way... would that be considered harassment?
Probably. But even if it isn't, why would you want to make yourself look like a weirdo? Because that's all saying "Nice" is going to accomplish.
Help me out here because I don't want to put off women. If I see a woman I'm attracted to while I'm out and about is ok for me to say hello as a way to try and start a conversation?
Of course it is. And if she reciprocates, great. If she doesn't, then that's that. It's the people who keep hounding women who are the issue.
I may have a skewed perspective myself because I actually met my wife "on the street". First day of college and I saw her walking down the street and I ran over to her and said "you are the most beautiful woman I've eve seen". She smiled and laughed we started walking and talking. In my situation it came from a good place; genuine awe at her beauty.
But I know it comes from a bad place for some guys who just want sex. Did I want to have sex with my wife when I first saw her, yes. But I also wanted to talk to her and get to know her as well. Shades do exists on this topic IMO
It is not relevant, and you, even with this, managed to just obscure the matter at hand. Any person on the street doesn't have a right not to be interrupted or asked about something. You are allowed to walk up to women and ask them out, when you're out. If you start a conversation with "I'm sorry, I just had to stop you. Your beauty just overwhelmed me", then you're trying to start a conversation. It might not work, but that's what you're doing.
The video, on the other hand, shows how men use these things to display their dominance. They can "take" from these women, like the girl on the subway, or the one whose chest got groped - both of them said they felt extremely violated because the man just took, and then gave them a look like "yeah, I did that, and there's nothing you can do about it". It's not about getting sex. It's about their impulses, and that they can "take" the view from these girls, or "take their attention", or "take their ass". They're abusing their physical power to invade these girls' lives. This is a topic of how calling out how hot a girl is, just to call it out, is violating a girl's right to her own way in public. You're asserting your dominance, but nothing more. These guys don't even want to pursue sex with these women. They just want to 'take' something from this passer by. That's a violation that's unwelcome. That is not related to men asking girls out on the street. It is not related to how you met your wife, and it isn't related to sex. It is related to men taking what isn't theirs.
It can be, yeah. The important thing about harassment is that it's unwanted. Some women might find kissy faces cute, but other women might find them intimidating or bothersome. If you're walking home after working a long night shift, you'd probably rather just be left alone.
Your friend doesn't mean to intimidate when he does that, but many women are used to being hollered at since adolescence. They might mistake his playful intentions for something darker.
This is why I wish more women would approach men that they find attractive. Even if on that rare occasion a woman approaches me they want me to be the one who takes the leap and asks about getting a number so that we can get a coffee or just talk more.
This is why I wish more women would approach men that they find attractive. Even if on that rare occasion a woman approaches me they want me to be the one who takes the leap and asks about getting a number so that we can get a coffee or just talk more.
If the situation was flipped, you would be on NeoGAF complaining about crazy girls who don't know when to leave you alone.
I have a question that any man or woman that has ever worked can answer. It's something I've noticed in my work experience, and I'm curious if others share this as well. When your job has hired a new employee, and a co-worker asks if you've met them yet, do you notice this pattern?
If the new employee is male, the co-worker usually says "Have you met John?"
If the new employee is female, the co-worker (typically a male co-worker) often says "Have you seen Jane?"
This is something I've often noticed and it always kinda bothered me. I brought it up once to a co-worker, but he said I was just looking into insignificant things too much.
If the new employee is male, the co-worker usually says "Have you met John?"
If the new employee is female, the co-worker (typically a male co-worker) often says "Have you seen Jane?"
This is something I've often noticed and it always kinda bothered me. I brought it up once to a co-worker, but he said I was just looking into insignificant things too much.
This is why I wish more women would approach men that they find attractive. Even if on that rare occasion a woman approaches me they want me to be the one who takes the leap and asks about getting a number so that we can get a coffee or just talk more.
Yeah, I agree that more women should take the initiative in finding partners. Unfortunately, too many people have been socialized to think that such behavior is wrong or unladylike.
The One and Done
Member
It is completely irrelevant, and you, even with this, managed to just obscure the matter at hand. Any person on the street doesn't have a right not to be interrupted or asked about something. You are allowed to walk up to women and ask them out, when you're out. If you start a conversation with "I'm sorry, I just had to stop you. Your beauty just overwhelmed me", then you're trying to start a conversation. It might not work, but that's what you're doing.
The video, on the other hand, shows how men use these things to display their dominance. They can "take" from these women, like the girl on the subway, or the one whose chest got groped - both of them said they felt extremely violated because the man just took, and then gave them a look like "yeah, I did that, and there's nothing you can do about it". It's not about getting sex. It's about their impulses, and that they can "take" the view from these girls, or "take their attention", or "take their ass". They're abusing their physical power to invade these girls' lives. This is a topic of how calling out how hot a girl is, just to call it out, is violating a girl's right to her own way in public. You're asserting your dominance, but nothing more. These guys don't even want to pursue sex with these women. They just want to 'take' something from this passer by. That's a violation that's unwelcome. That is not related to men asking girls out on the street. It is not related to how you met your wife, and it isn't related to sex. It is related to men taking what isn't theirs.
I can agree with this. Obviously touching a girl without her permission is completely inexcusable and fucking dangerous. For harassment that's assault. Now I'm seen several versions of guys saying things to girls in public and honestly I've seen situations where it seemed appropriate and some where it wasn't.
For example, I was with the guys in the station once and we were getting on the metro. A pretty girl was walking out and one of my friends kind of paused a bit as she walked by and said "hello" she smiled and did that thing girls do where their hair behind their ear and kept walking. Before the metro doors closed he ran back into the station over to the girl. When we met back up with him he'd gotten her number. They actually went out on a few dates after the fact.
On the other side I've seen guys try the same thing and get shut down completely and the appears visibly uncomfortable. Obviously that can been seen as harassment even if there is no malicious intent. Then I've seen the extreme version of guys whistling at girls yelling at them from a toss the street etc. That's the behavior I don't jive with and that's where I think the video is coming from. That latter behavior comes from a place of perceived male dominance and it quite often leads to violence against women.
I swear to god if a guy did that to my sister I'd hem him up sharper than freshly cuffed dress pants. Shit is disgusting and infuriating and it's what makes being a "decent" guy so hard.
If the situation was flipped, you would be on NeoGAF complaining about crazy girls who don't know when to leave you alone.
This is hard to believe since men in general are much more likely to seek out sex than women. Just look at casual encounter ads, prostitution, porn, bar and club patrons: men dominate these spheres. You think if the woman who filmed herself getting catcalled would really bother those men if she cat called and hit on them?
Devolution
Member
*reads thread* *cuts off balls*
I had no choice. happy now women?
I'm sorry being decent to women is so fucking emasculating for people like yourself.
Even in the video in the OP one of the women said that saying "hey," to get a woman's attention is harassment. To me saying hey is like saying hi to get someone's attention. And when you add in that I am a 6ft, 185lb guy that has a perpetual mean look and neanderthal-ish features, my "hey," "hi," or "hello" must have come off like harassment to a lot of women. I'm getting sad just thinking about it.
I may have a skewed perspective myself because I actually met my wife "on the street". First day of college and I saw her walking down the street and I ran over to her and said "you are the most beautiful woman I've eve seen". She smiled and laughed we started walking and talking. In my situation it came from a good place; genuine awe at her beauty.
But I know it comes from a bad place for some guys who just want sex. Did I want to have sex with my wife when I first saw her, yes. But I also wanted to talk to her and get to know her as well. Shades do exists on this topic IMO
I knew it. He was getting defensive because he didn't want to think he was harassing his wife.
Like others said, you lucked out on her, which does not mean that every guy should go around trying to talk to random women on the street in the hopes of getting a wife, gf, or any relationship from them.
A large majority of men only want the sex part and women pretty much have to assume this because we don't have a clue that you might just want to chat or form a meaningful relationship. Whenever women give that kind of trust to a stranger on the street it almost never ends well, so in protective defense we are going to be weary.
The Librarian
Banned
That's a form of sexism. Your co-worker just doesn't want to admit it.I have a question that any man or woman that has ever worked can answer. It's something I've noticed in my work experience, and I'm curious if others share this as well. When your job has hired a new employee, and a co-worker asks if you've met them yet, do you notice this pattern?
If the new employee is male, the co-worker usually says "Have you met John?"
If the new employee is female, the co-worker (typically a male co-worker) often says "Have you seen Jane?"
This is something I've often noticed and it always kinda bothered me. I brought it up once to a co-worker, but he said I was just looking into insignificant things too much.
This is hard to believe since men in general are much more likely to seek out sex than women. Just look at casual encounter ads, prostitution, porn, bar and club patrons: men dominate these spheres. You think if the woman who filmed herself getting catcalled would really bother those men if she cat called and hit on them?
That's why I said "if the situation was flipped"
The One and Done
Member
*reads thread* *cuts off balls*
I had no choice. happy now women?
Lol Jesus dude. Taking it right to the extreme I see.
That's a form of sexism. Your co-worker just doesn't want to admit it.
Yeah. I'm kind of curious how pervasive this Freudian Slip is though.
The Librarian
Banned
Even in the video in the OP one of the women said that saying "hey," to get a woman's attention is harassment. To me saying hey is like saying hi to get someone's attention. And when you add in that I am a 6ft, 185lb guy that has a perpetual mean look and neanderthal-ish features, my "hey," "hi," or "hello" must have come off like harassment to a lot of women. I'm getting sad just thinking about it.
The way he said it was bad and a form of harassment, yeah.
That's why I said "if the situation was flipped"
You never said the situation involved sex drive.
If you think it is your place, as a random guy, to tell a woman walking down the street that she is beautiful, as if that is your right, then to whatever intent you do it, I have no reason why you do it. We men don't have that right.
Everyone has the right to talk freely. How we go about doing it though should be scrutinized and discouraged when it is negative.
There are a lot of guys in this thread immediately rushing to the fringe of the discussion "Oh, now I can't even look at a women" while ignoring the big, fat, juicy center of the discussion. Guys, no one's going to flip out if you glance at a woman. Many women aren't going to be upset if you politely say, "Excuse me, miss..." or "Hello." But if you're so incapable of reading body language that you can't tell the difference between someone trying to get to work and someone looking to be approached, maybe it's better if you didn't hit on random women as if they existed to give you a shot at getting laid.
Whether or not a women receives a catcall, many women employ the same strategy of putting their heads down like your wife did. No matter the context, a noticeable amount of women view men as threats.
Would you say catcalling begets the threat they think could happen or is it independent of that behavior?
Personally I see it as independent. Trying to address catcalling by raising awareness of obnoxious behavior is useful for other reasons; but if you are trying to tackle the problem that men inflict more sexual violence on women I don't see how the issue is being directly addressed through stopping this specific behavior.
Until that behavior is reduced women won't stop seeing us as threats.
It doesn't really sound like a Freudian Slip to me, just a difference in attitudes towards men and women, aka sexism
I imagine the people saying that actually mean "met". As in, have I made myself acquainted with that person. I don't think they literally are asking if I have simply seen her. Thats going off the rest of the context of the conversation.
The One and Done
Member
Yeah. I'm kind of curious how pervasive this Freudian Slip is though.
Happens at my job too. I'll admit my contributions. Me and a buddy of mine have code words for certain situations. If either one of us sees a pretty girl, we will send each other a chat saying "Dear Diary". It's harmless but I guess you can say it's sexist maybe. But always think, if we were gay men doing the same thing about pretty men then what would that be?
Would you like it if someone catcalled your mother? daughter? sister? significant other?
What if she dressed in a certain way and someone said she was "inviting" it?
Maybe she even enjoys? Maybe your sister secretly loves the high school dropout at the corner of the street doing his best 2pac thuglife impersonation whistling after her yelling how he wants to impale her with his 20 inch donger?
Come on, its not okay, you would be instilled with rage if someone did this to one of your own female family members. These women are all someones mother, daughter, sister, niece.
What if she dressed in a certain way and someone said she was "inviting" it?
Maybe she even enjoys? Maybe your sister secretly loves the high school dropout at the corner of the street doing his best 2pac thuglife impersonation whistling after her yelling how he wants to impale her with his 20 inch donger?
Come on, its not okay, you would be instilled with rage if someone did this to one of your own female family members. These women are all someones mother, daughter, sister, niece.
I imagine the people saying that actually mean "met". As in, have I made myself acquainted with that person. I don't think they literally are asking if I have simply seen her. Thats going off the rest of the context of the conversation.
The worst is when a woman is hired and most men instinctively ask, "You know what she looks like?" Or the creepy, "Let's try to find her on Facebook."
Would say catcalling begets the threat they think could happen or is it independent of that behavior?
Personally I see it as independent. Trying to address catcalling by raising awareness of obnoxious behavior is useful for other reasons; but if you are trying to tackle the problem that men inflict more sexual violence on women I don't see how the issue is being directly addressed through stopping this specific behavior.
Until that behavior is reduced women won't stop seeing us as threats.
I suspect that behavior will never be gone, unfortunately, and I suspect women are well aware of that. I don't believe this video intends or suggests that a reduction in cat-calling will make women feel safe. The reduction in cat-calling simply allows them to get where they're going without having it rubbed in their face that they aren't safe. The video isn't attempting to solve all problems, it's attempting to raise awareness regarding this particular issue.
The One and Done
Member
Would you like it if someone catcalled your mother? daughter? sister? significant other?
What if she dressed in a certain way and someone said she was "inviting" it?
Maybe she even enjoys? Maybe your sister secretly loves the high school dropout at the corner of the street doing his best 2pac thuglife impersonation whistling after her yelling how he wants to impale her with his 20 inch donger?
Come on, its not okay, you would be instilled with rage if someone did this to one of your own female family members.
To play devils advocate here, I also wouldn't "like" it if someone had sex with my mother, daughter, sister etc. But as a man, I've had no issues with the mothers, daughters sisters I've slept with (not my own obviously). Context means a lot in this discussion. We are all sexual beings by nature and our world has created so many rules, taboos etc that sometimes I feel like people are ashamed of sex. There is nothing inherently wrong with sex.
BUT it's when those sexual thoughts lead to violence, and harassment that makes those thoughts malicious. That's the point this video is hitting on I think.
Devolution
Member
I don't like the "could be a relative" angle at all to be quite honest.
How about just seeing us as people. Not someone who needs to be related to you or another man because you're only about self-interests.
How about just seeing us as people. Not someone who needs to be related to you or another man because you're only about self-interests.
Would you like it if someone catcalled your mother? daughter? sister? significant other?
What if she dressed in a certain way and someone said she was "inviting" it?
Maybe she even enjoys? Maybe your sister secretly loves the high school dropout at the corner of the street doing his best 2pac thuglife impersonation whistling after her yelling how he wants to impale her with his 20 inch donger?
Come on, its not okay, you would be instilled with rage if someone did this to one of your own female family members. These women are all someones mother, daughter, sister, niece.
A little off-topic: a friend and I were at a bar on Halloween dressed as Batman and Scarecrow. He says to this girl, "Leave that zero and get with this hero". She looks at him and says, "That's my dad." I could feel the awkwardness from a mile away.
The One and Done
Member
I don't like the "could be a relative" angle at all to be quite honest.
How about just seeing us as people. Not someone who needs to be related to you or another man because you're only about self-interests.
That's a bit too idealistic for reality. The fact is, as humans, there are people we're care about more than others.
The Librarian
Banned
The One and Done;123742976 said:That's a bit too idealistic for reality. The fact is, as humans, there are people we're care about more than others.
That's kind of not addressing the point she was making.
Devolution
Member
The One and Done;123742976 said:That's a bit too idealistic for reality. The fact is, as humans, there are people we're care about more than others.
I don't think it's idealistic at all. I think having to tell someone "hey they could be someone's sister" is again removing the personhood from women and establishing them as relatives or property rather than people to just treat with decency.
The One and Done;123742976 said:That's a bit too idealistic for reality. The fact is, as humans, there are people we're care about more than others.
You treat other men as humans. Why can't this extend to women?
gutter_trash
Banned
in most of North America, the situations is still better than the whole of Latin America.
Yes the situation can be improved but we are are still more evolved than all of Latin American, Africa and Asia on the matter.
Yes the situation can be improved but we are are still more evolved than all of Latin American, Africa and Asia on the matter.
You treat other men as humans. Why can't this extend to women?
Many people prefer pets, sex, drugs, money, etc. over being courteous to anyone. Of course it's not right but Street Culture and society in general has huge problems and is a place where youtube comments walk around freely and treats others like shit (see: New Yorker stereotypes, road rage, etc).
Catcalling and harassment needs to be curtailed and maybe this is where wearable camera tech will come in handy like Google Glass. Sure it just deals with the symptoms but if The Wire is of any indication we need everyone on board to make huge changes for all walks of life. World needs more accountability somehow someway (Google Glass, dashcams, and more)
I suspect that behavior will never be gone, unfortunately, and I suspect women are well aware of that. I don't believe this video intends or suggests that a reduction in cat-calling will make women feel safe. The reduction in cat-calling simply allows them to get where they're going without having it rubbed in their face that they aren't safe. The video isn't attempting to solve all problems, it's attempting to raise awareness regarding this particular issue.
A reasonable perspective though I feel they wanted to reach further than that. We all hardly talked about it because it's obvious is wrong is the random groping.
People who randomly grope I see as very scary. To violate someones space like that shows a definitive lack of respect for the victim. You aren't going to convince people who think that is ok through just words alone whether it is face to face or online. That's why I suggested earlier women need to actually fight back anyone who touches them inappropriately and we need our justice system setup to dynamically alter past and future convictions to penalize the people who have a repeat pattern of getting into these situations.
The Librarian
Banned
Again, the definition of harassment is made to encompass everything and ends up meaning nothing.
"Hey." Throw the book at him.
You're completely undermining the issue. Saying "hey" sexually when not in an appropriate setting is a form of harassment, yes. How many times must this be repeated?
Again, the definition of harassment is made to encompass everything and ends up meaning nothing.
"Hey." Throw the book at him.
Harassment can come in varying degrees. I see no problem with a woman feeling a bit harassed by a guy giving her some cheesey "How you doin'" greeting. It doesn't mean it's being equated to other severe cases of harassment.
You're completely undermining the issue.
The issue is undermined by people choosing to wring in things that are clearly not harassment into things that clearly are harassment.
You're completely undermining the issue. Saying "hey" sexually when not in an appropriate setting is a form of harassment, yes. How many times must this be repeated?
To somebody who knowingly treats women differently than they treat men, it probably can be difficult to differentiate harassment from normal chitchat.
The Librarian
Banned
The issue is undermined by people choosing to wring in things that are clearly not harassment into things that are clearly harassment.
Why can't you just read to what the women in this thread have said? That's not what's happening.
The issue is undermined by people choosing to wring in things that are clearly not harassment into things that clearly are harassment.
Define what is and is not harassment in clear and unambiguous terms that should fit for all people and all circumstances.
The Librarian
Banned
To somebody who knowingly treats women differently than they treat men, it probably can be difficult to differentiate harassment from normal chitchat.
How is it difficult to not harass women?
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