Interesting video on street harrassment
- Thread starter Bleepey
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It is actually not complex at all. I don't see how you are not getting this.
User 100115
Banned
This argument always baffles me. Assholes are assholes, let's not do anything about them, but lord forbid you women should wear anything other than long pants in public.
PSYGN
Member
Are you seriously thinking you can do something about these people? You're delusional.
If you're going to tell anyone anything, tell the assholes to 'act more modestly' and shut the fuck up.
I'm genuinely not getting it apparently. Can you explain further please? What defines harassment for you? If a person sees someone they are attracted to on the street and says "you're beautiful" is that harassment? That was one of the clips in the video and they think it was. I disagree.
User 100115
Banned
Men are unable to control their behavior around women then? That's interesting. I guess instead of forcing innocent people to change where and when they walk and how they dress we should just lock up all the men?
Numerous people have explained this to you, but you seem to be making a huge gray area where there is none.
Laughed more than I should have.
PSYGN
Member
Not all men are. Wake up to reality.
Devolution
Member
Yes.
Less men catcall over the years as more and more younger people are indoctrinated into the idea that it's gross.
So, again yes.
A man can go down the street wearing whatever he pleases and typically won't be harassed by men or women about it. Saying "Dress more modestly" isn't really a solution. And the issue is beyond catcalling. Catcalling is simply a symptom of how women are viewed in America. You're trying to treat the symptom, not the cause.
User 100115
Banned
Then I don't understand your argument. If not all men are unable to control themselves around women, what makes them so special?
Edit: Nevermind
Don't you see the point, though? She says she understands that she dresses provocatively, but that doesn't mean that these guys have a right to do that. It's the perfect sentiment to the movie, because it brings out this exact argument. It's a slippery slope to a type of "she deserved it" attitude, this. We don't live in a perfect world, but it is never a woman's fault when she's being targeted for her style, be it by catcalls or assault. Yes, one can take refuge in other styles, but I applaud those that refuse to budge from their identity, just because 'people are assholes'. They have no right to make her change.
So much so that you're completely unwilling to try and see it from their view, apparently. You're saying a lot of stuff, but it all comes across as hand-waving and misdirection. You're not saying anything of substance, which means your posts simply contribute to get us further away from understanding this problem.
No. Someone gave an example about "creepy stares" and another posted a "dictionary" definition.
Devolution
Member
No shit? But lots of them can be educated about their behavior and change. Let's just let them keep on going though. What a crock of shit. I'm tired of seeing this defeatist attitude that seems more like an endorsement of the status quo than anything else. Nothing fucking changes when people keep quiet.
What? Lock up the aggressors in the situation? Don't be silly. Lock up the innocent people.
"I know the way I dress is kinda provocative,but it doesn't mean I should have to deal with it (harassment)"
Get out of here if you are going to make up quotes that fit your personal thoughts, humie.
Well damn that was a bit rude...I'm not misdirecting anything just tying to understand people's views vs my views. I think it is an important dialogue to have but there are clearly varying opinions and definitions to some. So go ahead and explain your views and definitions. I'm more than willing to listen an attempt to understand.
Devolution
Member
Look, I don't have to go out in anything remotely provocative. That's how bad the street is that I actively avoid walking home by. I have to reroute my fucking walk to and from work because there are a couple streets that are a meat market. I don't need to hear/read some dude pontificate about how I must have earned it somehow, thanks.
As an ugly person I can tell you that attractiveness plays a role in social interactions, especially first meetings. I can tell you how most girls throughout grade grade school and HS looked like they wanted to die having to sit next to me. Only through being a guy that played sports, was funny, and beat up other guys did I get girls in this period of my life to be comfortable with me. In college half the time I sat next to a girl they would look at me and grimace uncontrollably or start to grimace and stop it. Even at most jobs women avoid me until they see a bunch of other guys talking to me who probably tell them that I'm not a bad guy.
I've even tested it with my brother who really handsome. If we approach random women who are out and about he is way more successful than I am and he always makes a point to act like an asshole while doing it. He will open up with, " yo, I want to holla at you for a minute," or some other catcall and there a lot of women who stop and talk with him once they get a look at him. Race and outward style doesn't matter, a lot of women will stop and hear him out.
I have a hard time believing that physical attractiveness doesn't play a role.
Yeah, it seems kinda silly to me to just say "boys will be boys". I feel like a lot of people just buy into the stereotypical TV personalities that have men being helpless horndogs for men that have to have a big dick and a big ego and women that are overly-emotional and overly-irrational and whatnot. Sure, some of those things are likely in part a result of biology and society, but I see no reason why we have to act like "Well I guess that's the way I need to be."
HuskerDutheDu
Member
Don't yell at women you see. Not super complex.
Devolution
Member
With street harassment? I think you're a rude jerk either way. It isn't trying to chat me up in a bar. It is being a jackass or a creep while I'm on my way to work, or on my way home.
But isn't that what she essentially said though? We live in a vain society of selfies, people who dress a certain way to look sexy/beautiful. If a girls gets her hair and makeup done and her gf says "wow you look hot" and the she walks down the street and a man says "wow you look hot". Is one harassment and the other isn't? Yes her gf is a friend she chose and she knows her and the guy would be a stranger but I wouldn't say the man is wrong or objectifying the woman by that comment.
Devolution
Member
There is a difference between a friend, that you knows you and your boundaries complimenting you and a stranger basically imposing their unsolicited opinions/attitude/jackassery. It's like you're trying to be as obtuse as possible here.
Once again I enter a topic about shit like this, where the problem is factually demonstrated and there's no room for interpretation, and once again we still get comments like this:
I mean holy fucking shit.
I mean holy fucking shit.
How is it rude? Your posts have been of this kind:
You're not attempting to unravel this, yourself. You're trying to undermine the feelings these girls have on the subject. You're putting it behind a defense of "what is really harassment", but to me, it's clear that you think you should be entitled to do things, even if they find it intrusive. The wishy-washy conduct you bring to this thread has made that clear, to me. The fact that you place the burden onto others while continuing to do the same hand-waving is unflattering.
The difference I think is how these are just random strangers. I would imagine a lot of women would be put off by some guy who looks like Brad Pitt just screaming to them "Aww yeah girl, come on and shake that ass the way I like it now. You know it's too good not to share." as they walk by him on the street. Maybe some women like it, but that's not what the discussion is about. A lot of women don't like it, and for good reason.
I don't think me explaining this to you would help, you seem really set in your view.
The Librarian
Banned
I love you.
That would be unwelcome and harassment, yes.
You're ignoring the problem by not listening to what the women in this thread are saying. It's like your putting your fingers in your ears and humming while we're trying to tell you something. You're essentially saying, "Yeah, well, if it was an attractive dude!"
I've never found it that difficult to tell the difference between a woman who was in a situation where she might be looking for an approach and a woman who was just doing her business like the rest of us. Generally speaking, strolling down the street at a clip means she's trying to live her life, not get hit on. That's why we have numerous places in which we go to hit on one another, to make it clear that we're there to be approached.
I only know how obnoxious this is because I did what Stooge did, which is follow my wife at a distance down a crowded street. I could only take about ten minutes of it, before I closed the distance, at which point it stopped completely. In that ten minutes, a number of men discussed my wife's breasts, her mouth, and one told her what he would like to do to her in graphic detail. All while my wife was walking, head down, not acknowledging any of it.
There are a lot of guys in this thread immediately rushing to the fringe of the discussion "Oh, now I can't even look at a women" while ignoring the big, fat, juicy center of the discussion. Guys, no one's going to flip out if you glance at a woman. Many women aren't going to be upset if you politely say, "Excuse me, miss..." or "Hello." But if you're so incapable of reading body language that you can't tell the difference between someone trying to get to work and someone looking to be approached, maybe it's better if you didn't hit on random women as if they existed to give you a shot at getting laid.
I may have a skewed perspective myself because I actually met my wife "on the street". First day of college and I saw her walking down the street and I ran over to her and said "you are the most beautiful woman I've eve seen". She smiled and laughed we started walking and talking. In my situation it came from a good place; genuine awe at her beauty.
But I know it comes from a bad place for some guys who just want sex. Did I want to have sex with my wife when I first saw her, yes. But I also wanted to talk to her and get to know her as well. Shades do exists on this topic IMO
But I know it comes from a bad place for some guys who just want sex. Did I want to have sex with my wife when I first saw her, yes. But I also wanted to talk to her and get to know her as well. Shades do exists on this topic IMO
I don't know why, exactly, that this bothered me more than other sad events of late... but this is the most depressing thing I've read on here in a while. That's just so fucked up and wrong.
Devolution
Member
You're not painting shades. You got lucky with your wife and you're being ultra-defensive and ignoring just what the fuck women are telling you about how they're approached and how they invite it.
You have to recognize that it becomes a bigger issue with how common it is. If a woman came up to me and said I was very handsome, I would not feel sexually harassed. I would actually take it as a great compliment. Why? Because it never happens for me. It would actually be a unique event and I would feel like that women was so enamored with my appearance that she just had to compliment me. If I was being battered with those same comments every day constantly and expected to simply accept them all, I would begin to question why do all these people feel the need to tell me how handsome I am? I would begin to feel like they think I want to hear it constantly or need to hear it. I would begin to think they are simply fulfilling their own agenda and playing up their own ego. So you telling a random woman that she is beautiful is not simply that.
The Librarian
Banned
Exactly. Stop putting your fingers in your ears and ignoring what we're saying.
If you think it is your place, as a random guy, to tell a woman walking down the street that she is beautiful, as if that is your right, then to whatever intent you do it, I have no reason why you do it. We men don't have that right. Women have a right to not be harassed, as in bothered, when they're moving from place to place. To defend that you have a right to be a lewd moron on the street, especially in the face of women telling you it makes them feel uncomfortable, is nothing short of shocking. She isn't beautiful for you. She isn't there for your entertainment. That is what you impose when you do this. That is why it's wrong. Saying that women take selfies and ask to be judged on social media is very far removed from this. It is what I'd further categorize as wishy-washy stuff to obscure the matter at hand.
This isn't about your rights to impose what you will. This isn't about the fact that there, most definitely, are areas of gray, and it is not a matter you can define within a sentence. It is about the fact that you should consider your actions when you are in an area of gray, because even if you might not be doing anything wrong, you very well might be.
I think looks play a role in who people think are creepy. Being an ugly guy means men and women are much, much quicker to blow you off and you have to work much harder socially to get into people's good graces. Things only started getting easier in my mid twenties though because it seems to take that long for the average person to realize looks don't equal personality and looks also start to fade in most people since they have to start putting work in to actually maintain their physical appearance.
Devolution
Member
If you want to say shit in a bar, sure that's a venue for social communication.
If you want to holler while I'm trying to get to work in the most rude and objectifying of ways, well fuck off.
If you want to holler while I'm trying to get to work in the most rude and objectifying of ways, well fuck off.
Sectorseven
Member
I got a friend who likes to make kissy faces at women through windows, especially in the car at red lights and stuff. Mostly in like a playful fashion. He says the physical barrier of the glass makes women comfortable with it, presumably because they will often laugh or make faces back. Is this harassment?
You just love steak.
Even a bar isn't an excuse to throw off that behavior as far as I'm concerned. Women shouldn't be afraid that if they go to a bar they'll have to listen to eighteen guys talk about how hot they are or catcall. A guy can still take the time to show some simple graces and treat a person right. Go up to that person and try to have an intimate conversation; and if they turn you down walk away. You don't need to single them out from across the bar and talk about what a fine ass they have.
The One and Done
Member
I can understand both sides here but I think the "unpopular" side is arguing something that really isn't being debated here. It's a topic for a different discussion IMO. As far as street harassment goes I think it's generally inappropriate to yell out things at a female while she's minding her own business. Now there is a time and a place for things so if that same woman was at a bar or club, I think it'd be fine to then approach her in some way. That kind of setting is meant for meeting people and having fun regardless of intent.
Now I've lived in a pretty dense city my whole life and I can say that it's truly disgusting to see men in "primal" form when a girl walks by. But I am not going to exclude myself from such behavior as well because it happens from time to time. If I'm with a group of friends on the street and a pretty girl walks by I certainly stare out of natural instinct. I don't do the catcalling thing because I'm a bit more reserved but I certainly observe the girl for a bit. Does that make me a pig? I dunno. Maybe. Just trying to be honest about the culture of men.
Now I've lived in a pretty dense city my whole life and I can say that it's truly disgusting to see men in "primal" form when a girl walks by. But I am not going to exclude myself from such behavior as well because it happens from time to time. If I'm with a group of friends on the street and a pretty girl walks by I certainly stare out of natural instinct. I don't do the catcalling thing because I'm a bit more reserved but I certainly observe the girl for a bit. Does that make me a pig? I dunno. Maybe. Just trying to be honest about the culture of men.
I understand what the video is saying. I'm just speaking from my experiences. Its hard for me to not believe looks don't matter when women I have said hi to a respectful way look at me in disgust only to have my brother be a block away and get her number even though he starts the conversation by yelling out loudly at her, "I like the way your ass works those jeans." I'm not saying that there aren't going to be women that hate it no matter what. I just don't believe that all women would hate a catcall if it came from a hot guy like I am getting from this video.
It seems like first we should actually decide what it means to catcall.
Some people will probably take it as harassment, yeah.
Depends on the the person receiving the action. That's the way harassment works.
I agree. There's something different about trying to approach a woman, and trying to say they're there for you to look at.
grap3fruitman
Banned
How do you make everyone happy?
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