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Iraq child marriage bill would allow 9 years-old girls to wed, limit women's rights

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G

Gentleman Jack

Member
Solid warrior said:
It's their families, their people, their women, their parliament and their social norms. They know what's right and wrong from their own perspective, just like you think you know the right and wrong.
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Is it not a form of slavery to marry an extremely young girl to a much, much older man? How on earth can you dismiss that as a mere difference of perspective?
 
S

Solid warrior

Banned
Maragidyne said:
No it isn't. Allowing gay marriage and sex before marriage is wholly based on social norms, as these acts take place against either between two consenting adults of adequate mental capacity or the latter also occasionally between two similar aged underaged youngsters (this last one obviously isn't a good thing, but you're better off educating them on the matter than trying to stop it from happening altogether and failing). Kids however do not possess the mental capacity to understand such situations and can be exploited by adults, particularly in cases of sex and marriage, even more so considering these laws allows these things to happen to 9-year-olds. Allowing them to get married and basically be forced to have sex at a man's whim is nothing other than sexual abuse no matter where you go or look, as according to their cognitive development, and is nothing less than state-sanctioned rape.

It's fucking sick and is unacceptable. There may be differences between cultures, but there are universal facts based on common biology and psychology and going against these indicates flawed morality. Also fuck moral relativity. It's an easy, flawed go-to answer for people who don't have anything worthwhile to say.
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Fathers or legal guardians giving their 9 year old girls to wealthy men is a common practice between the villagers. So, when she grows up she'll be financially secured and actually has a reliable family of her own when she grows up older and that girl will most likely inherit a fortune from her deceased husband. Otherwise, that little girl who might be an orphan and poor will become a fallen woman and practice prostitution until her death. Underage marriages is a necessary tool for some families in order to fight poverty.

Mental capacity and or consent is not necessary when legal guardian/parents approve of this marriage. Because either way, that girl is destined to get married anyway.
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
mission_accomplished_bush.jpg

.......
on a serious not, American intervention in Iraq has made it worse than Saddam era Iraq.

Yes Saddam was a major dick but he kept the religious extremos in check and women had more rights.

Now, you got "elections" mostly divided by sectarian differences and the religious extremos are running the show making it actually WORSE for Women and Children then before.

I don't give a fuck about getting flamed, but Iraq was better off with Saddam Hussein.
 
C

ComputerMKII

Banned
gutter_trash said:
mission_accomplished_bush.jpg

.......
on a serious not, American intervention in Iraq has made it worse than Saddam era Iraq.

Yes Saddam was a major dick but he kept the religious extremos in check and women had more rights.

Now, you got "elections" mostly divided by sectarian differences and the religious extremos are running the show making it actually WORSE for Women and Children then before.

I don't give a fuck about getting flamed, but Iraq was better off with Saddam Hussein.
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I'm sure the Kurds would agree.
 
S

Solid warrior

Banned
Gentleman Jack said:
By the way what is the legalization of marital rape meant to fight?
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To ease up the divorce procedure for the husband and he can claim and prove that she isn't interested in him, sexually speaking. Her rights like inheritance, divorce compensation will drop and the husband will not pay anything.
 
G

Gentleman Jack

Member
Solid warrior said:
To ease up the divorce procedure for the husband and he can claim and prove that she isn't interested in him, sexually speaking. Her rights like inheritance, divorce compensation will drop and the husband will not pay anything.
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I struggle to believe this corrects the balance of power between men and women in Shia Iraq. This also seems to run counter to the 'child marriage fights poverty' angle if a 15 year old girl can say no to her husband of six years then get tossed to the street with nothing. I'm not buying the 'these laws fit social norms and do good!' defense.
 
C

CornBurrito

Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
I'm sure science and psychology of brain development and human free will could define why this is universally wrong.

Thus proving this bill is a core defect of the culture.

Cultural norms are not always ok just because they're cultural or traditional. Hopefully rationality prevails and the bill is defeated.
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Uh, I'm going to point out that there isn't any field of science that scientifically studies human free will. If anything, most behavioral science at this point disproves the idea of free will.

And I'm not sure how free will existing would somehow make actions like child marriage universally wrong. Hunter-gatherers were getting married and having kids well before 18 years of age. I'm not really sure our ancestors were objectively immoral.

I don't believe child marriage is acceptable, but let's not pretend that some intrinsic universal force is backing that view.
 
S

Solid warrior

Banned
Gentleman Jack said:
I struggle to believe this corrects the balance of power between men and women in Shia Iraq. This also seems to run counter to the 'child marriage fights poverty' angle if a 15 year old girl can say no to her husband of six years then get tossed to the street with nothing. I'm not buying the 'these laws fit social norms and do good!' defense.
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If she had children from that husband she can ask for their rights. Besides, her legal guardian will be preparing her for another marriage, regardless if she had children or not. Her legal guardian will pursue the goal of keeping her financially secured by marriage.
 
M

mattiewheels

And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Why 9 year olds? Is the concept of setting a little girl up for life with financial backing is just a front for pedophilia or is it really harmless tradition?
 
S

Solid warrior

Banned
mattiewheels said:
Why 9 year olds? Is the concept of setting a little girl up for life with financial backing is just a front for pedophilia or is it really harmless tradition?
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Villagers give their daughters regardless of the law. The legal guardian would sign a marriage contract between the girl's family and the husband to be and they wouldn't document this in a court.

the bill would probably be able to recognize such undocumented marriages and regulate child marriages which are popular in some areas in Iraq.
 
G

GoldenEye 007

Member
CornBurrito said:
Uh, I'm going to point out that there isn't any field of science that scientifically studies human free will. If anything, most behavioral science at this point disproves the idea of free will.

And I'm not sure how free will existing would somehow make actions like child marriage universally wrong. Hunter-gatherers were getting married and having kids well before 18 years of age. I'm not really sure our ancestors were objectively immoral.

I don't believe child marriage is acceptable, but let's not pretend that some intrinsic universal force is backing that view.
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And the brain development part? Wife forced to capitulate anytime the husband wants it? That's textbook rape and the proposed law is objectively immoral based on that alone.

This isn't the beginning of human history, btw. We advance and evolve as a species in addition to having longer life expectancies. A 9yr old today is vastly different from one even 3,000 years ago.
 
C

CornBurrito

Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
And the brain development part? Wife forced to capitulate anytime the husband wants it? That's textbook rape and the proposed law is objectively immoral based on that alone.

This isn't the beginning of human history, btw. We advance and evolve as a species in addition to having longer life expectancies. A 9yr old today is vastly different from one even 3,000 years ago.
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Can you provide evidence that shows a human of 3000 or 2000 years ago is developmentally different than one of today? Physically we mature faster now iirc, and that's due to increased availability of food in developed nations. Mentally though are we really any different?

Your attempt to use science to prove moral claims kind of requires you to have evidence. Which is why you bringing up free will was pretty odd.
 
U

UraMallas

Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
And the brain development part? Wife forced to capitulate anytime the husband wants it? That's textbook rape and the proposed law is objectively immoral based on that alone.

This isn't the beginning of human history, btw. We advance and evolve as a species in addition to having longer life expectancies. A 9yr old today is vastly different from one even 3,000 years ago.
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You should watch this neat show on Fox called Cosmos. You might learn a thing or two about evolution.
 
S

Solid warrior

Banned
Toadette said:
its illegal to be gay over there am i right ?

yet sex with a child is OK , excuse me while my head explodes
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It's called "child marriages", not "sex with a child". Because the point of it is not having 'sex with a child'. it's about procreation, legal rights to inherit, have children and financial security for the wife and her children.
 
G

GoldenEye 007

Member
CornBurrito said:
Can you provide evidence that shows a human of 3000 or 2000 years ago is developmentally different than one of today? Physically we mature faster now iirc, and that's due to increased availability of food in developed nations. Mentally though are we really any different?

Your attempt to use science to prove moral claims kind of requires you to have evidence. Which is why you bringing up free will was pretty odd.
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I suppose there is a bit of a shortage of 3000 year old child brains to study. But it isn't a stretch to say that humans then had a different set of circumstances to work with in their environmental development that dictated different societal expectations and needs. Shorter life expectancies, the need to "grow up" sooner and assist in the survival of the family or town, etc. It would be expected to marry and have children at a younger age.

Today, though? I'm not sure why I need to prove or explain why state sanctioned rape of children and/or wives is wrong. Cultural norms be damned. Marriage alone isn't the big issue. Although I'm not sure if a child is capable of fully understanding what marriage is and what it means.

UraMallas said:
You should watch this neat show on Fox called Cosmos. You might learn a thing or two about evolution.
Click to expand...
How does it work?
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Solid warrior said:
Fathers or legal guardians giving their 9 year old girls to wealthy men is a common practice between the villagers. So, when she grows up she'll be financially secured and actually has a reliable family of her own when she grows up older and that girl will most likely inherit a fortune from her deceased husband. Otherwise, that little girl who might be an orphan and poor will become a fallen woman and practice prostitution until her death. Underage marriages is a necessary tool for some families in order to fight poverty.

Mental capacity and or consent is not necessary when legal guardian/parents approve of this marriage. Because either way, that girl is destined to get married anyway.
Click to expand...

Are you actually defending this? Is this real life? Maybe you are just bad at communication? Help.
 
foxdvd

foxdvd

Member
makes me sick...I don't see anyway someone could defend this.

I am also surprised no one has had the balls to post the airplane pic..
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
NEO0MJ said:
Pretty sure they figured out before the invasion that the reports of Saddam being in possession of chemical weapons was bogus but they invaded anyway.
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I am genuinely disturbed by the above recollection:

The Bush administration was involved in securing those falsified reports in the first place. They knew very well what Sadaam did and didn't have. They needed to introduce doubt to justify a war they actively wanted to wage. Even without 911, the Bush administration would have taken us into Iraq.
 
C

CornBurrito

Member
GoldenEye 007 said:
I'm not sure why I need to prove or explain why state sanctioned rape of children and/or wives is wrong. Cultural norms be damned.
Click to expand...

I'll walk you through it since you don't understand. You don't have to prove that the sanctioned rape of children or wives is wrong to me. But that wasn't your claim, or at least that wasn't all of your claim. You decided to make the additional claim that the scientific study of the human brain would allow someone to show, objectively, that marriage of 9 year old is wrong. I asked you for evidence for the additional claim.

You've provided no evidence for the additional claim. And I guess in order to save face you've been trying to make it sound like I think child marriage is fine simply because I took issue with your claim that science "proves" child marriage is wrong.
 
F

FourMyle

Member
CornBurrito said:
I'll walk you through it since you don't understand. You don't have to prove that the sanctioned rape of children or wives is wrong to me. But that wasn't your claim, or at least that wasn't all of your claim. You decided to make the additional claim that the scientific study of the human brain would allow someone to show, objectively, that marriage of 9 year old is wrong. I asked you for evidence for the additional claim.

You've provided no evidence for the additional claim. And I guess in order to save face you've been trying to make it sound like I think child marriage is fine simply because I took issue with your claim that science "proves" child marriage is wrong.
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holy shit I cringed
 
A

Ashes

Banned
CornBurrito said:
Uh, I'm going to point out that there isn't any field of science that scientifically studies human free will. If anything, most behavioral science at this point disproves the idea of free will.
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Hold on a second. You're jumping the gun by a huge ass margin.

One question I'd ask is: free will at what point? The few studies that have been done tend to suggest we make motor decisions or get ready to make *simple* decisions insanely quick - even faster than we are consciously aware of doing so.

However, it is we who are still in control and can if we choose to *not* to follow through.

The studies are pretty cool though.
 
G

GoldenEye 007

Member
CornBurrito said:
I'll walk you through it since you don't understand. You don't have to prove that the sanctioned rape of children or wives is wrong to me. But that wasn't your claim, or at least that wasn't all of your claim. You decided to make the additional claim that the scientific study of the human brain would allow someone to show, objectively, that marriage of 9 year old is wrong. I asked you for evidence for the additional claim.

You've provided no evidence for the additional claim. And I guess in order to save face you've been trying to make it sound like I think child marriage is fine simply because I took issue with your claim that science "proves" child marriage is wrong.
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My original post was on the rape. I never specifically pointed out the marriage part. I referred to it as the marriage bill but I never pointed out marraige, IIRC.

I do challenge the need for a 9yr to get married in today's world, but my chief objection was to the whole rape thing. I just referred to the overall bill as the marriage bill. I suppose for clarity, I should have said rape bill.
 
C

CornBurrito

Member
Ashes said:
Hold on a second. You're jumping the gun by a huge ass margin.
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I'd suggest doing research on priming. There's also studies that clearly throw the idea of free will into question. http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110831/full/477023a.html

I mean I guess part of the problem is how poorly defined free will is. I'd say humans have a will. But I wouldn't call it free given the huge number of things that we know impact decision making.
 
A

Ashes

Banned
CornBurrito said:
I'd suggest doing research on priming. There's also studies that clearly throw the idea of free will into question. http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110831/full/477023a.html

I mean I guess part of the problem is how poorly defined free will is. I'd say humans have a will. But I wouldn't call it free given the huge number of things that we know impact decision making.
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The funny thing is I summarised some of the studies you presented before you posted your article. In fact I think I actually read that very article a couple of years ago - though perhaps my mind is playing tricks on me.

You've added nothing to the claim you've made. So please indulge me. :)

I'm sincerely interested. So I will read that article again to refresh my memory. But I wouldn't go around saying science has proven free will doesn't exist.
 
Y

YoungHav

Banned
Solid warrior said:
It's called "child marriages", not "sex with a child". Because the point of it is not having 'sex with a child'. it's about procreation, legal rights to inherit, have children and financial security for the wife and her children.
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but what is the point of having sex with someone who cannot procreate? it isn't child marriage, it is a cover for pedophilia, tradition or not.
 
S

Solid warrior

Banned
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