T8SC
Member
It's integral, you can't play 'any' game without loading it.
Therefore Ridge Racer Revolution is a space shoot 'em up.
Is Alien vs. Predator Jaguar open-world or nahh?
It's integral, you can't play 'any' game without loading it.
Therefore Ridge Racer Revolution is a space shoot 'em up.
molasar
Banned
Yes, they mixed other elements but emphasis is on killing enemies. Even result screen proves it. It is not the same with Jag's AvP.
molasar
Banned
T8SC
Member
You're right, it is obvious. It's an integral part of the game.
Tomb Raider is a puzzle game.
Final Fantasy VII is a dating sim.
Desert Strike is a flight sim.
Assassins Creed is an educational history game.
molasar
Banned
Nope. It is not. It is a bonus element.
Exactly. Your twisted way of thinking in regards to games. Double standard.
nkarafo
Member
Not saying it's the same as AVP.
Result screen shows % of kills but also % of secrets and % of pickups.
Two of these elements require exploration. Only one require shooting. So if you think the result screen is important, then DOOM is only 1/3 FPS and 2/3 exploration.
T8SC
Member
Nothing twisted, you've totally sold me on it all. We've been thinking of games all wrong this whole time.
AvP is actually a running simulator, like Track & Field, but in space.
Because you run around the levels. It makes sense now, you're a genius!!! Why were we thinking of this all wrong? U deserve GAF Gold.
molasar
Banned
Doom is just more convoluted Wolf3D.
Nothing close to a mixture what Jag's AvP is. That is why the latter cannot be called its clone.
molasar
Banned
Then be honest about games and describe all genre elements they are made of.
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SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
This is the funniest shit god damn
nkarafo
Member
Not really.
The level design is what makes DOOM an exploratory game. Wolf 3D isn't really that because every room and corridor looks the same. You can still search for secrets if you want but you don't really explore in this game, you are just trying to solve a labyrinth. In DOOM you do that but you also actually explore since the levels have a distinct look and architecture in every single area. It makes moving through the levels interesting even without the monsters.
That's what makes it's engine so important. Wolf 3D's engine doesn't allow interesting, distinct areas to be build (and neither AVP's). Doom's engine does. That's what makes DOOM different than Wolf 3D.
They can still be compared technically.
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T8SC
Member
You're right.
When Tomb Raider gets another reboot I hope they accurately define it as a puzzle shooting third party animal cruelty perverted titty adventure game.
molasar
Banned
I do not remember anyone saying back in the day that they got Doom for exploration or exploration is a cool element of it. It was all about shooting monsters and being a next step in FPS genre.
Again Jag's AvP is not dedicated FPS. Yet with simpler design is a more interesting game.
You are free to make technical comparisons. Even A:CM with A:I if this makes sense to you.
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molasar
Banned
So you cannot decide what TR really is. At least you faced a reality.
molasar
Banned
Exactly. I am still waiting for solid arguments and a sensu stricto definition of open world game.
T8SC
Member
nkarafo
Member
I do not remember anyone saying back in the day that AVP is an open world game.
No review, no magazines, no players. I never saw anyone calling it an open world game. First time i ever saw anyone call that is you, in 2021.
I'm using your own arguments here.
You are kidding yourself now and you know it. There is nothing better about an engine that can only draw orthogonal rooms VS one that can draw almost whatever you can think of, sans a few restrictions.
If you could at least benefit in some other ways by using the simplistic engine, i would understand it. But no, despite using a very simple engine compared to DOOM (that the Jaguar handles well), AVP still has a much worse frame rate and draw distance. The only thing that's left is the higher resolution sprites. Are you saying AVP is a more interesting game only because it has a few high-res sprites? Because that doesn't really help gameplay. You know what helps gameplay? Level design and frame rate. AVP, which is a more exploratory game as you say, would benefit GREATELY if it had a more advanced engine that can draw all sorts of shapes, heights, details, etc.
Just imagine how much more interesting and memorable the space station would look if it had a few distinct looking areas with actual architecture detail. And since the Jaguar could handle DOOM, i'm sure it would handle that as well. It doesn't even have to be as fast as DOOM of have infinite draw distance like DOOM. But use the engine for some proper architecture and, for the love of god, make frame rate playable.
I know. And technically DOOM is superior.
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molasar
Banned
Because no one used this term yet back then. But a sensu stricto structure of Jag's AvP is exactly this.
And if I remember correctly it started being widely used since GTA3.
Again you are still thinking that the AvP is a Doom clone. It looks better than PC version of Doom. And its frame rate or draw distance does not impact gameplay. AvP is more interesting because it is a mix of many elements unlike Doom is in comparison.
Nope. There is nothing wrong with AvP's gameplay, level design and frame rate. And no, you cannot get a game like AvP on Jag with better geometric structures. The consoles is not powerful enough for it and cart capacity was limiting it too.
Doom engine cannot give a cinematic illusion like AvP did. Just look at character sprites or textures. Then compare them with Doom and its clones.
The bottom line is that AvP is not an FPS like Doom is.
Then explain me why the best version of it or Doom 2 looks bad in comparison to the AvP? Why no one created a Doom like engine which can handle AvP features on Jag?
molasar
Banned
"INTRODUCTION Alien vs. Predator is a tactical simulation" So what it is then?
What it shows you that things were not defined or established like they are now. The 90s were experimental times with huge jumps. Very interesting times for those who could experience them.
I even remember some magazines portrayed the game as an interactive movie.
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nkarafo
Member
There is nothing in AVP's design that makes it more demanding that DOOM in gameplay terms, to rule out the engine. In contrary, DOOM has a far more demanding gameplay. It's faster paced, which means it has to draw the environments much faster and has many more enemies and projectiles on screen at once. AVP is a much slower paced game and doesn't need as many moving objects. So using the DOOM engine in AVP should not be an issue at all.
By your own logic, your own arguments and rules, DOOM is not an FPS.
You can't just create rules and use them only where you see fit. You have to apply them for everything.
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molasar
Banned
Exactly what you read where you used this gif.
Lol. Jag's Doom engine cannot handle all AvP's features and have better gameplay. And no one cares about more demanding gameplay if one already in place perfectly works. Lol again. AvP is not dedicated FPS. FPS is just one element of it. Is slower and it works for gameplay. Nope, you cannot use the D. engine in AvP without losing graphical quality.
What is it then? What is a selling point of it and what element is emphasis placed on in it? Who was excited about labyrinth structure with secrets in it?
One game of the two started as a shooter.
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CamHostage
Member
I am learning so much. This thread...
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kurisu_1974
Banned
While the ladies are bickering, I tried this and some other Jaguar games on a Pi4 using lr-virtualjaguar and it was horrible. Slow, sound issues, and in the case of Alien vs Predator the map didn't even show. I'm sure there's emulators on PC that'll work fine.
Deputy Moonman
Member
It's open world in the sense that you can kind of go where you want and backtrack within the confines of a spaceship. However, if I remember correctly, it's been too long, the game pushes you in certain linear directions with the level design similar to Halo. Would people classify Halo as an open world game? Probably not (Infinite may buck that trend though). I think most people would consider open world to mean a larger outdoor space or world to explore. Ultimately though who cares. Why are we even discussing this 
molasar
Banned
Like the most of so called open world games with a linear main goal.
OP wants to prove me wrong in this thread but he never played it. Thus he believes it is some Doom clone.
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SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
Apparently, no one has played it who doesn't agree with your thesis. And I never called it a Doom clone btw., I just said it didn't age as well as Doom did.
molasar
Banned
Lol. It is not about a democratic vote but about establishing what it really is based on facts. In regards to Doom it was not anything special to everyone even back then. And the both games aged graphically but AvP still looks better. Not to mention a core concept of AvP has not been used as effectively in any other game. Its original programmer would like to create a spiritual successor.
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SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
Technically, graphically and gameplay-wise Doom aged much better.
Facts are meaningless when you pick and choose them based on your feelings. Like you don't even agree that AvsP is an FPS game, all while every empirical source and even the developers themselves call it an FPS game.
nkarafo
Member
You are clearly confused. Your reply makes absolutely no sense.
My argument is that AVP could easily use the DOOM engine and still play the same but with a far better level design than before. AVP has a FAR less demanding gameplay than DOOM because it's slower and has less enemies on screen so if the Jaguar console could handle DOOM with the DOOM engine, it could also handle AVP with a DOOM engine.
Again, i'm not talking about changing the game. Just change the engine to allow more advanced features. You say the DOOM engine can't handle AVP's features but you never explain what those features are. Have you even seen what the DOOM engine can do? Have you even seen modern DOOM engine projects? You have no idea what the engine does, you just throw baseless assumptions without having any knowledge about these things.
Why are you so afraid to admit that your precious game could have been much better than it was? After DOOM, any game with orthogonal level designs was pretty much obsolete. Also, i never once stated in this topic that AVP is a Doom clone. You seem obsessed with this and repeat yourself over and over but it has nothing to do with what i'm saying. I'm talking strictly about GRAPHICS ENGINES and PERFORMANCE and nothing else. I made it clear several times that i don't care about genre labels but you seem to have the attention span of a goldfish.
Doom's selling point was it's graphics and complex level design. It's environments were far and beyond anything that existed before it. Like, it wasn't even close. It wasn't just an improvement over other FPS games, it was like a generational leap if we talk with console terms. That was what made this game so popular back then. It's technology.
The blood/violence/satanic imagery was also something that turned heads.
No matter how you slice it, by your own definition, DOOM is not just an FPS game. It's an exploratory adventure with shooting elements. Your logic, your rules.
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Azelover
Titanic was called the Ship of Dreams, and it was. It really was.
The game was better than I expected.
It has aspects of FPS, but I totally agree that it is sort of an open-world game. It's an open world action game. And yet there are aspects that go beyond shooting. For example, if you play as an Alien you don't have guns. If you consider that, then it's really not an FPS at all.
It's more like an open world first person action game.
It has aspects of FPS, but I totally agree that it is sort of an open-world game. It's an open world action game. And yet there are aspects that go beyond shooting. For example, if you play as an Alien you don't have guns. If you consider that, then it's really not an FPS at all.
It's more like an open world first person action game.
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nkarafo
Member
Try Phoenix emulator.
molasar
Banned
Nope. Its engine still cannot a game with AvP qualities on Jaguar. Graphically is worse than AvP which can be proven with gameplay videos. And there is nothing wrong with AvP's gameplay.
I do not use any feelings here. Just facts and calling things for what they are. Do you want to prove that back in the day there was a genre called an open world game? Lol. Why the game's manual says it is a tactical simulator and not FPS? Were the devs wrong back then about it? Why the game's box does not say it is FPS?
Full manual here:
AtariAge - Atari Jaguar Manuals - Alien vs. Predator (Atari)
AtariAge - News, message boards, rarity guides, game database, manuals, pictures, articles, links, and much more
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SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
Well, if we go by the definition of FPS games from Wikipedia, then it only needs "weapon-based combat in a first-person perspective" to be considered an FPS. There are also the Marines, which use guns, and the Predators that can use both melee and projectile weapons. So only 1/3 of the game is entirely dependent on melee combat.
nkarafo
Member
AVP:
- Basic engine that can only render orthogonal rooms.
- Moving doors don't even have depth (lol) and look like paper.
- Short draw distance.
- Horrible frame rate.
- High-res sprites.
DOOM:
- A much more advanced, next gen engine that allows proper architecture.
- Proper depth to any moving object like doors and elevators.
- Infinite draw distance.
- Much faster frame rate on the same console.
- Lower res sprites.
If this was a poll about which games has better graphics, i doubt AVP would get more than 1 vote (yours).
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SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
Dude, those arguments are super far-fetched.
The
A game can be both a "tactical simulator" and an FPS.
It is very disrespectful towards the devs to claim they are wrong about their own game.
You are grasping at straws at this point. Those facts you define by your very own logic. Those are only your facts and not universal facts.
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molasar
Banned
Nope. You are confused here.
Nope. It could not handle such resolution of sprites and textures Then again these are two different games. You are just confused by a point of view in them.
Also what does it mean less enemies on screen? Have you played it? Have you run into canteen after leaving a brig as a marine? How many more enemies you need there after this? Lol.
The bottom line is that Doom engine is not created to handle such settings like are in AvP.
Again Jag's D. engine cannot handle stuff which is in AvP. Textures and sprites. Yes, I have seen Doom engine projects (PC D. engine). No one impressed me with anything. Just a complete lack of artistic approach and balance.
Lol. Carmack made a version of Doom engine for Jag to handle a Doom game. Not AvP features. And no, Doom only made games like Wolf3D and its clones obsolete but not Jag's AvP which is not even FPS.
And if you talk about engines then prove that it can handle AvP features on the same level of quality.
Of course more advanced graphics are a selling point. But everyone was getting it for shooting feature, not maze like levels.
Also lol. Now you change a narrative. "DOOM is not just an FPS game. It's an exploratory adventure with shooting elements. Your logic, your rules." Wow. What an exploratory adventure. Why was it so boring even for 1993? Shoot monsters, find cards to progress to exit in a maze like environment. Again. The main emphasis is on first person shooting in more interesting environment than Wolf3D and its clones were.
CamHostage
Member
Animagic said:Wow how have I never heard of this game in all these years?!
{posted in a different thread}
Hmm, how can one answer the question of, "How have I never heard of this Atari Jaguar game in all these years?!"... The world may never know?
Even most Youtube clips I've seen of AvP Jag, the framerate is clunky (it didn't have a great framerate on Jaguar hardware, but it's a slow-paced game so on a TV back then it was okay,) and often times the sprites glitch out or have artifacts. So I assume that A. the framerate is coupled to the engine (as in, even if the emulator allowed overclocking, the sound and movement would crank up and be annoying and the gameplay might fall apart even if the movement smoothed out,) and B. Jag emulation never got as much attention as other platforms. But maybe try that Phoenix one that nkarafo reccomended.
Sprites are more "high-res" than Doom sprites at the time. "Doomguy" was 32x56 and the game uses 8-bit (256) color, Jag has 16-bit color in-game and has these "JagPEG" compressed image sprites that I'm not sure the resolution but I assume are significantly more detailed than that.I was wrong. AVP doesn't even have high-res sprites:
So.... I'm not exactly sure what's so "high res" about it. Maybe it has better sprite scaling. But it's still low res.
If you remember much from back when Jag AvP was a thing (besides that you were interested in checking it out but knew nobody who owned a Jag and had a hard time finding a Babbages with a working Jag demo kiosk...), you'd probably remember screenshots of the really nice facehugger graphic (which was way better than the facehugger in Alien Trilogy on PS and Saturn years later, although Alien Trilogy's was animated.)
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molasar
Banned
nkarafo
Member
No, you are.
What features? You keep using that word but you never explain.
I explained how DOOM is better graphically and what features it has that AVP lacks. You never did the same.
Here's another feature AVP lacks. DYNAMIC LIGHTING. Where are the flickering lights? Don't tell me that a game such as AVP, which has horror elements, wouldn't benefit by the use of dynamic lighting!
Same with AVP.
You really have the attention span of a goldfish. Here's my previous post:
"If we are going to be pedantic, then DOOM isn't an FPS either. It has elements of FPS but it also relies a lot on exploration. Solving the levels themselves is a game in itself, no scratch that, the main objective it to solve the levels. Find the keys and your way out. The monsters are just obstacles. Even without the enemies, you still have a challenge. Heck, you don't even need to kill a single monster to beat most of the levels, see "pacifist" runs."
Do you remember it? It was a long time ago, a few whole hours.
nkarafo
Member
Ok, high-res sprites then. Though, it's kind of uneven since some are lower res than others.If you remember much from back when Jag AvP was a thing (besides that you were interested in checking it out but knew nobody who owned a Jag and had a hard time finding a Babbages with a working Jag demo kiosk...), you'd probably remember screenshots of the really nice facehugger sprite (which was way better than the facehugger in Alien Trilogy on PS and Saturn years later.
Still, this one thing can't make up for all other graphical regressions this game has compared to Doom (on the same console).
molasar
Banned
Lol.
What each game was trying to achieve?
Yep, in 1994 Jag's Doom looked better than Jag's AvP. More cinematic like. Lol again.
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SpongebobSquaredance
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, I think the discussion with you isn't really fruitful, to be honest, so I'll let others try as I have already explained to you why I don't see it as an open-world game, with your answers only confirming my point of view. There was a point by one user in this thread comparing it to dungeon crawler games and I agree. Also, the post you quoted was about the whole FPS dilemma anyway, so whatever.
Agent X
Member
My head is spinning from reading this thread.
The issue here is what is conventionally accepted as an "open world" game. I don't recall this being a term that was tossed around in 1994, back when Alien vs. Predator was released.
"Open world" seemed to take shape with the release of Grand Theft Auto III in 2001. The game was a marvel at the time, with a huge environment that was fully 3D rendered. There were distinct places that you could visit, leave, and revisit later. There were all sorts of non-player characters roaming around, that you could interact with in various ways. There was always somewhere to go to find a mission to do...or you could just roam around and do nothing in particular at all.
After GTA3, you had other games that expanded on the concept, like Assassin's Creed, Red Dead Redemption, Horizon Zero Dawn, and more. They all embraced the freeform style of gameplay, where you could advance the main story, tackle some side mission, or just go exploring and sightseeing.
Would I consider Alien vs. Predator an open world game? Well, relatively speaking, it is more "open" than most first-person shooters of the day, like Wolfenstein 3D and Doom (both of which were on the same system). Those games were focused on completing distinct levels in sequence, while AvP's levels are all interconnected into one large playing area. You can freely go back to any area of the game environment that you previously visited. So, it does satisfy one aspect of "open world" games.
The overall game does not fully satisfy the conventional definition of "open world", though. Although you have three characters with different play styles, each one of them still has a singular goal throughout the game. There are no side missions, and all of the NPCs are distinct enemies with rigid behavior patterns. It's actually structured more like a Metroidvania (another modern gaming term). It has about the same amount of freedom as a game like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I think both the third and fourth poll options would apply here.
Come to think of it, is Raiders of the Lost Ark (1982 game for the Atari 2600) "open world"? Probably not, but it was rather advanced for its time. It even had Metroidvania elements such as inventory management, and areas that can only be accessed after certain items have been obtained and properly utilized.
The issue here is what is conventionally accepted as an "open world" game. I don't recall this being a term that was tossed around in 1994, back when Alien vs. Predator was released.
"Open world" seemed to take shape with the release of Grand Theft Auto III in 2001. The game was a marvel at the time, with a huge environment that was fully 3D rendered. There were distinct places that you could visit, leave, and revisit later. There were all sorts of non-player characters roaming around, that you could interact with in various ways. There was always somewhere to go to find a mission to do...or you could just roam around and do nothing in particular at all.
After GTA3, you had other games that expanded on the concept, like Assassin's Creed, Red Dead Redemption, Horizon Zero Dawn, and more. They all embraced the freeform style of gameplay, where you could advance the main story, tackle some side mission, or just go exploring and sightseeing.
Would I consider Alien vs. Predator an open world game? Well, relatively speaking, it is more "open" than most first-person shooters of the day, like Wolfenstein 3D and Doom (both of which were on the same system). Those games were focused on completing distinct levels in sequence, while AvP's levels are all interconnected into one large playing area. You can freely go back to any area of the game environment that you previously visited. So, it does satisfy one aspect of "open world" games.
The overall game does not fully satisfy the conventional definition of "open world", though. Although you have three characters with different play styles, each one of them still has a singular goal throughout the game. There are no side missions, and all of the NPCs are distinct enemies with rigid behavior patterns. It's actually structured more like a Metroidvania (another modern gaming term). It has about the same amount of freedom as a game like Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I think both the third and fourth poll options would apply here.
Come to think of it, is Raiders of the Lost Ark (1982 game for the Atari 2600) "open world"? Probably not, but it was rather advanced for its time. It even had Metroidvania elements such as inventory management, and areas that can only be accessed after certain items have been obtained and properly utilized.
nkarafo
Member
I just made a list of features that proves DOOM is far more advanced, graphically. Plus, the Dynamic lighting which i forgot.
You did nothing. Not a single word. No arguments.
Lol, i don't know what else to tell you. You are in complete denial.
Also, lol "cinematic".
It's too funny.
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molasar
Banned
Lol. I do not what the user posted but it is not from the game's manual. And back then there was no established genres like they are now. Thus you are wrong, dude.
Nope the devs are not wrong about their own game. They are fully aware that it is not an FPS game but a game that mixes various elements. So be respectful towards the devs and people like me who know what they are talking about.
Your ignorance of facts won't help you.
molasar
Banned
I was wrong. AVP doesn't even have high-res sprites:
So.... I'm not exactly sure what's so "high res" about it. Maybe it has better sprite scaling. But it's still low res.
Still higher res than Doom's. Do you want to bring a screenshot from it for comparison and both taken from CRT TV set?
Havoc2049
Member
Here is something that will blow your mind, AVP takes place within a simulator. So the simulation part of that sentence is in reference to that, not the genre/category of AVP, which is right there in black and white, First-Person Shooter. That page is from the Atari Jaguar's Official Gamer's Guide, published in 1995. So even in the 90's, everyone and their dog firmly believed AVP belonged in the FPS genre.
Your friend is right and you are wrong. Just take the L and go play an open world game like Elite Dangerous or Sea of Thieves.