BlitzEngineer
Member
First off, before we start, I want to make a clarification: I'm not talking about "the medieval knightly system with its religious, moral, and social code" (src: Google). I am talking about the modern definition: "courteous behavior, especially that of a man toward women" (src: also Google) Emphasis on especially.
Now, an anecdote, from tonight: We've got a new guy on our crew, one that I sort of identify with. I work in a field (golf course management) that doesn't attract many nerds like myself. You find a ton of guys that like golf a ton, many outdoors-men, that sort of thing. But this new guy, let's say Jeff, is way into Magic: The Gathering, video games, and internet culture. So, sensing a kindred spirit, I invited him out to drinks after work today, since we left early.
Anyway, we have a few drinks, blah blah blah, and I'm driving him back to work where his car is. It's raining today in Denver, a cold steady rain that to me signals that although the season has been abnormally hot, Fall is coming quickly. It's not pleasant (although in the golf industry we tend to have very good rain gear). We stop at an intersection, and in the crosswalk in front of us a slim woman in a hoody walks alone, hands in her coat-pockets, in the rain. I don't blink an eye.
Jeff, without hesitation, emboldened by a few high ABV craft beers, grabs his umbrella, says "I'm gonna help her out, see you later man" and darts out the car, unfurls the umbrella, and begins walking alongside the woman shielding her from the rain. I'm honestly completely taken aback and when the light runs green I decide to turn right and follow my coworker, who is about halfway down the block at this point.
Well, predictably, the girl is just surprised for the first block, and then when waiting at the next intersection, rebuffs him, and tells him she's fine and that he can leave. I didn't hear this conversation obviously but I imagine that after he insisted "It's no trouble, m'lady" she told him to fuck off because it's creepy to walk right beside a stranger in the pouring rain and that she'd be fine without his "protection".
She walks across the street quickly away from him, and my coworker just sort of stands there stupefied. I call out to him, he gets in the car, and we talk about what just happened. He's aghast that a girl would refuse his politeness like that. Throughout the conversation, I tell him she probably thought it was creepy and unexpected, that he basically ambushed her, and like...what was he going to do? Follow her back to her apartment, tip his hat and leave? Incredibly awkward. That was the extent of the conversation when we got back to his car.
He was sort of taken aback, and said that he felt as if he was simply doing something kind for a stranger, something "expected of a capable young man such as myself" (his words). I truly feel that's what he intended, but in reality it was awkward and a little creepy to do that to a complete stranger. 'Imagine how she must have felt!' I say. Then, after some discussion, I ask him: "Would you have done the same for a random guy?". Of course not.
So here we come to it: sexism, obfuscated and subtle, but in pure form. She is a woman, I am a man, and she needs my protection, request or consent be damned. To be clear, I didn't really cut to the heart of it like this in my conversation with Jeff; I told him to forget about it and be careful driving home. But it got me thinking. I'm a polite person, but I wouldn't do what Jeff did. I do pay for the girl on a first date, I do hold the door open if I happen to be right in front of a girl (although to be fair I tend to do that for anyone). Where do these sorts of things inch away from the realm of general politeness, and into the realm of "chivalry"? In other words, treating women differently from men. AKA...sexism.
Obviously, Jeff's ordeal is particularly cringe-worthy, and clearly he wouldn't do the same for a man, but is it really sexism for a man to go "above and beyond" normal politeness for a woman? I think it is, but at the same time, I would certainly hesitate to call Jeff a sexist. And besides that, I can think of plenty of examples in my life where I absolutely have treated women differently than men. Offering someone a coat in the cold, for example. It would be straight weird to take off my coat and give it to another guy. But I have done this in the past towards women. Sexist? Polite? Is even thinking of women as "the fairer sex" itself a sexist idea? Pulling out a chair for your date? Sexist or polite?
What say you, GAF? As a man, do you have examples of treating women differently that are justified? As a woman, do you have examples of things men believe are polite that you think are cringey or even sexist? And an even more challenging question: Are there some things that are certainly sexist, but also polite and expected (pulling out a chair for a girl, paying for them on a first date)?
And an addendum: Before tearing down Jeff as a fedora-tipping, cringe-generating "Nice-Guy", I just want to defend him. He's from Nebraska, raised on a farm in a very, very small community, and although he's not a complete dullard, his first weeks in a city like Denver have for sure exposed him as more than a little bit socially awkward. I don't think he was seeking or expecting reciprocation, like the typical modern "Nice-Guy" would. I genuinely think he was just a little fired up and saw an opportunity to be polite to a stranger. Maybe back home on the country roads he grew up on, it would be sweet. In an urban area, it's fucking creepy.
Now, an anecdote, from tonight: We've got a new guy on our crew, one that I sort of identify with. I work in a field (golf course management) that doesn't attract many nerds like myself. You find a ton of guys that like golf a ton, many outdoors-men, that sort of thing. But this new guy, let's say Jeff, is way into Magic: The Gathering, video games, and internet culture. So, sensing a kindred spirit, I invited him out to drinks after work today, since we left early.
Anyway, we have a few drinks, blah blah blah, and I'm driving him back to work where his car is. It's raining today in Denver, a cold steady rain that to me signals that although the season has been abnormally hot, Fall is coming quickly. It's not pleasant (although in the golf industry we tend to have very good rain gear). We stop at an intersection, and in the crosswalk in front of us a slim woman in a hoody walks alone, hands in her coat-pockets, in the rain. I don't blink an eye.
Jeff, without hesitation, emboldened by a few high ABV craft beers, grabs his umbrella, says "I'm gonna help her out, see you later man" and darts out the car, unfurls the umbrella, and begins walking alongside the woman shielding her from the rain. I'm honestly completely taken aback and when the light runs green I decide to turn right and follow my coworker, who is about halfway down the block at this point.
Well, predictably, the girl is just surprised for the first block, and then when waiting at the next intersection, rebuffs him, and tells him she's fine and that he can leave. I didn't hear this conversation obviously but I imagine that after he insisted "It's no trouble, m'lady" she told him to fuck off because it's creepy to walk right beside a stranger in the pouring rain and that she'd be fine without his "protection".
She walks across the street quickly away from him, and my coworker just sort of stands there stupefied. I call out to him, he gets in the car, and we talk about what just happened. He's aghast that a girl would refuse his politeness like that. Throughout the conversation, I tell him she probably thought it was creepy and unexpected, that he basically ambushed her, and like...what was he going to do? Follow her back to her apartment, tip his hat and leave? Incredibly awkward. That was the extent of the conversation when we got back to his car.
He was sort of taken aback, and said that he felt as if he was simply doing something kind for a stranger, something "expected of a capable young man such as myself" (his words). I truly feel that's what he intended, but in reality it was awkward and a little creepy to do that to a complete stranger. 'Imagine how she must have felt!' I say. Then, after some discussion, I ask him: "Would you have done the same for a random guy?". Of course not.
So here we come to it: sexism, obfuscated and subtle, but in pure form. She is a woman, I am a man, and she needs my protection, request or consent be damned. To be clear, I didn't really cut to the heart of it like this in my conversation with Jeff; I told him to forget about it and be careful driving home. But it got me thinking. I'm a polite person, but I wouldn't do what Jeff did. I do pay for the girl on a first date, I do hold the door open if I happen to be right in front of a girl (although to be fair I tend to do that for anyone). Where do these sorts of things inch away from the realm of general politeness, and into the realm of "chivalry"? In other words, treating women differently from men. AKA...sexism.
Obviously, Jeff's ordeal is particularly cringe-worthy, and clearly he wouldn't do the same for a man, but is it really sexism for a man to go "above and beyond" normal politeness for a woman? I think it is, but at the same time, I would certainly hesitate to call Jeff a sexist. And besides that, I can think of plenty of examples in my life where I absolutely have treated women differently than men. Offering someone a coat in the cold, for example. It would be straight weird to take off my coat and give it to another guy. But I have done this in the past towards women. Sexist? Polite? Is even thinking of women as "the fairer sex" itself a sexist idea? Pulling out a chair for your date? Sexist or polite?
What say you, GAF? As a man, do you have examples of treating women differently that are justified? As a woman, do you have examples of things men believe are polite that you think are cringey or even sexist? And an even more challenging question: Are there some things that are certainly sexist, but also polite and expected (pulling out a chair for a girl, paying for them on a first date)?
And an addendum: Before tearing down Jeff as a fedora-tipping, cringe-generating "Nice-Guy", I just want to defend him. He's from Nebraska, raised on a farm in a very, very small community, and although he's not a complete dullard, his first weeks in a city like Denver have for sure exposed him as more than a little bit socially awkward. I don't think he was seeking or expecting reciprocation, like the typical modern "Nice-Guy" would. I genuinely think he was just a little fired up and saw an opportunity to be polite to a stranger. Maybe back home on the country roads he grew up on, it would be sweet. In an urban area, it's fucking creepy.
But there have been several times where I thought "fuck it" and just walked out.
