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[Aselith]

Doing something nice for someone is creepy?

Imagine you were walking down the street and a stranger came up and started walking intimately close. Would you feel comfortable with that?

Also, she let him do it for a block before she said anything. That seems like enough to win your nice guy points. Was he going to walk her all the way home?

 

[pigeon]

I feel like you’re making this super complex. If I see someone walking through pouring rain by themselves on a cold night I’m going to help them out regardless of their gender. Why does it have to be more than that?

The guy in the OP is explicitly different from you?

What makes you think this post is about you at all?

 

[EloquentM]

Imagine you were walking down the street and a stranger came up and started walking intimately close. Would you feel comfortable with that?

Also, she let him do it for a block before she said anything. That seems like enough to win your nice guy points. Was he going to walk her all the way home?

Lol if it was pouring rain and someone walked up to me closely with an umbrella I would thank them. If I didn’t want help I’d say thanks but I’m good, if I appreciated the consideration I’d start a conversation. Goodness gracious I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

 

[Aselith]

Lol if it was pouring rain and someone walked up to me closely with an umbrella I would thank them. If I didn’t want help I’d say thanks but I’m good, if I appreciated the consideration I’d start a conversation. Goodness gracious I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

For how long? You'd let them follow you to your home and hold the umbrella while you fumbled for your keys? Would you invite the person in then? Would it be rude not to invite them? They walked with you back to house over many blocks.

The OP said the woman said it was fine and his friend apparently insisted. What happens then for you?

 

[EloquentM]

For how long? You'd let them follow you to your home and hold the umbrella while you fumbled for your keys? Would you invite the person in then? Would it be rude not to invite them? They walked with you back to house over many blocks.

Forever how long I wanted them to walk with me? If I felt uncomfortable I’d simply say thanks for the cover but I’m good. If we had a conversation and it led me home then if I’m comfortable with that, and now this person knows where I live. I don’t get your questions. If I was uncomfortable at no point was I not able to say leave me alone.

Edit: if they insist I say “no, really I’m fine”. Most people aren’t pushy in these situations and insist to be polite. Why is politeness such a foreign concept. I’m not sure if this is people being cynical or socially inept at this point.

 

[siddx]

A lot of men have trouble understanding that they aren't the superhero every girl is waiting for. She doesn't want you to walk her under an umbrella or walk her to her car or even open the door because countless men think being nice and being helpful means women owe them something. And it's not worth risking it over the possibility someone is just being nice and not an aggressive dipshit fake nice guy who will expect devotion and sex in return. I understand this is hard for younger guys to get. I can remember being young and seeing an upset woman late at night under a storefront. I walked up to her like I was some heroic pompous knight there to help save her and before I could say a word she screamed at me to fuck off and leave her alone. I was so self righteously angry for the longest time. How dare she talk to me that way, I was going to help her! What an ungrateful bitch! It wasn't until I grew up a bit and realized all she saw was some large man in the middle of night approaching her with nobody else around. She was probably fucking terrified.

Until we fix the pervasive male attitudes that exist in society that make men legitimately threatening to women regardless of intent, the concept of chivalry is indeed dead.

 

[Aselith]

Forever how long I wanted them to walk with me? If I felt uncomfortable I’d simply say thanks for the cover but I’m good. If we had a conversation and it led me home then if I’m comfortable with that, and now this person knows where I live. I don’t get your questions. If I was uncomfortable at no point was I not able to say leave me alone.

What if he insists?

Edit: if they insist I say “no, really I’m fine”. Most people aren’t pushy in these situations and insist to be polite. Why is politeness such a foreign concept. I’m not sure if this is people being cynical or socially inept at this point.

Running after someone to walk for blocks with them isn't basically politeness. And if you're not going the whole way then there was no reason to go after them with the umbrella in the first place.

Hold the door of course, I do for everyone. This was a weird way to be polite which makes it an awkward, weird situation.

Its funny you should invoke social ineptitude and not realize how weird it feels to have a stranger barrel up and walk very close to you for no reason, politeness or not.

 

[ironmang]

Could've gave her the umbrella if he was so worried about her tolerance for rain :shrug:

Anyway, it's creepy to offer help or assistence to people who don't ask for it.

Scratch that, anything you'd do for your choice of sex, that you wouldn't do for another sex in terms of chivalry or politeness is an instant creep flag.

Was gonna say I've helped out or offered to help out people in hundreds of everyday situations and don't see how I was being creepy lol. Nothing wrong with asking if someone needs help with something.

 

[EloquentM]

What if he insists?

if they insist I say “no, really I’m fine”. Most people aren’t pushy in these situations and insist to be polite. Why is politeness such a foreign concept. I’m not sure if this is people being cynical or socially inept at this point.

 

[pigeon]

if they insist I say “no, really I’m fine”. Most people aren’t pushy in these situations and insist to be polite. Why is politeness such a foreign concept. I’m not sure if this is people being cynical or socially inept at this point.

Let me explain a social concept to you that you don't seem to understand: it's actually very weird to suddenly change your route and plans in order to hold your umbrella over a person for an indeterminate length of time. That is not politeness at all, that's a level of weird martyrdom that would make almost anyone uncomfortable.

 

[DavidDesu]

Sounds weird. He needs to be educated on boundaries. Might seem like a good deed to him but I think the vast majority of people would find it incredibly uncomfortable having a stranger come up to them and impose themselves on you like that. Sharing an umbrella means getting closer to the other person than you would anyone else in virtually any other day to day scenario. It's downright weird. Nevermind the awkward small talk required. Most people just want left the fuck alone in peace and not be thrust into a scenario like that against their will with the extra downside being that you feel bad telling the other person to go away so somehow you end up feeling like you're the bad actor because some douchebag was a creep.


You definitely need a TL;DR summary here btw..

 

[SkeptiMism]

Damn. How will I hook up with girls now with this gem of wisdom in the back of my head?

But you don't do that specifically because they're a woman. You do it because you're attracted to the person.

 

[zbarron]

Probably. It comes from a time and place where women were considered lesser (even more so than now) and it's treatment of women is based on that. That said you can find sexism in most things, and chivalry leans more towards the harmless side of the scale. So on the list of things to change about how society treats women it'd probably be a lower priority.

I personally try to be a gentleman with my wife and in my life but what you pointed out to your friend is important. Empathy goes a long way and you need to consider what would help others and not just make yourself feel good. Just giving her the umbrella would be the better solution.

 

[EloquentM]

Let me explain a social concept to you that you don't seem to understand: it's actually very weird to suddenly change your route and plans in order to hold your umbrella over a person for an indeterminate length of time. That is not politeness at all, that's a level of weird martyrdom that would make almost anyone uncomfortable.

You seemed to lack to lack the social understanding of not being an ass. I’m still not understanding how this would make almost anyone uncomfortable, or how it’s escalated to a level of martyrdom (hyperbolic much?) but thanks for the input.

 

[pigeon]

You seemed to lack to lack the social understanding of not being an ass. I’m still not understanding how this would make almost anyone uncomfortable, or how it’s escalated to a level of martyrdom (hyperbolic much?) but thanks for the input.

I understand it fine, I just try to use the appropriate social behavior for the context I'm presented with.

 

[BlackRainbowFT]

In my opinion you can't have benevolent sexism without negative sexism. Both should be equally eradicated.

Personally I try to be very kind to anybody, because I believe this is how things should be.
On the other hand, I noticed that sometimes I "hold back" because the other person is a young woman...
This is true for both strangers and colleagues.

Sadly I can cite a few instances were a woman was visibly annoyed because she thought I was treating her differently than I would have otherwise (it's even worse if they're attractive).

I understand that this is because of what women have to go through, but from my own point of view, it's rather annoying.

Last week my hospital's research lab got two new PhD students and I showed them around and told them I was available in case they needed something. The woman quickly managed to casually slip the fact that she was married in the conversation (a bit abruptly too)... And I hate when they do that, setting boundaries even though I couldn't care less about going out with them.
The guy, on the other hand, he accepted anything I could offer without blinking... He even accepted I'd teach him about some of the devices we use.

So, again I understand why this has come to be. But I can't help personally hating the fact that other people assume something about me just because I'm a man and she's a woman.

My SO uses this kind of tactic only once it's extremely obvious the guy is interested (i.e., asking for the phone number, social media, or being downright obnoxious)... Never as a pre-emptive strike.

Thankfully in my profession I work in a context where being extra-kind with patients (without being annoying or infantilizing them) is expected.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I’m still not understanding how this would make almost anyone uncomfortable, or how it’s escalated to a level of martyrdom (hyperbolic much?) but thanks for the input.

You sound like a Jeff.

 

[Steel]

You seemed to lack to lack the social understanding of not being an ass. I'm still not understanding how this would make almost anyone uncomfortable, or how it's escalated to a level of martyrdom (hyperbolic much?) but thanks for the input.

Context: You're walking to your destination wearing a hoodie in the rain, minding your own business, then someone gets close to you and puts their umbrella over you. This person, a complete stranger, continues to stand within one foot of you, silent, as you continue to your destination for a period of time.

How is being uncomfortable with this even a question?

 

[ClosingADoor]

You seemed to lack to lack the social understanding of not being an ass. I’m still not understanding how this would make almost anyone uncomfortable, or how it’s escalated to a level of martyrdom (hyperbolic much?) but thanks for the input.

How is it not uncomfortable to have a random stranger suddenly go walking beside you on your way home. Let alone in the dark at night, while his friend is apparently following you also.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

You seemed to lack to lack the social understanding of not being an ass. I’m still not understanding how this would make almost anyone uncomfortable, or how it’s escalated to a level of martyrdom (hyperbolic much?) but thanks for the input.

op and his friend were basically indistinguishable from serial killers targeting their next victim

 

[kingkaiser]

I always give women the advantage, open the door for them and provide help with carrying heavy things. The smile I get almost every time in return is worth it alone.
I have worked in women dominated work places pretty much my entire career and overheard countless conversation between them, and trust me, almost all embrace good old chivalry, especially in this day and age with morals declining everywhere.

 

[Alucrid]

op, if jeff kept walking with her would you have left him? i would

 

[Aureon]

Damn. How will I hook up with girls now with this gem of wisdom in the back of my head?

It's fine to hit on girls.
Just don't pretend you're doing selfless altruism when you're very much doing it for yourself. Not to yourself, and certainly not to the girl involved.

 

[TheSpoiler]

I always give women the advantage, open the door for them and provide help with carrying heavy things. The smile I get almost every time in return is worth it alone.
I have worked in women dominated work places pretty much my entire career and overheard countless conversation between them, and trust me, almost all embrace good old chivalry, especially in this day and age with morals declining everywhere.

Would you help a dude out though in the same way?

I used to do that shit, but then I caught onto the fact that it's choosy as fuck. I'll hold the door open for people, help anyone who's struggling, and just be chill with people in general. On the flipside, I'm not giving up my seat for someone unless they are old, expecting, have a child, or injured.

 

[wazoo]

Damn. How will I hook up with girls now with this gem of wisdom in the back of my head?

That is a real problem (or risk ?) for our society. Men completely castrated of doing something "sexist", so they end up not talking to women. And women so obsessed of being "right" that they end up alone.

But society invented dating services and we are all good.

I am happy to meet my wife at university before, because in the current work system, I would not even know how to talk to a girl without a feeling of going to far, the girl being outraged or claiming for harassment.

 

[wazoo]

In my opinion you can't have benevolent sexism without negative sexism. Both should be equally eradicated.

I hold the door for anybody, men or women. And I do not have an umbrella ...

 

[eso76]

Doing something nice for someone is creepy?

Dude, girl walking alone at night is suddenly approached by (drunk?) stranger who wants to walk her home.

Add OP following them on a car and yeah, unfortunately the situation just gets understandably frightening for a girl.

(Edit: lol reading that again sounds like a good sketch for something like dumb and dumber )

I won't get into the sexism argument but anyone who reads the news would instantly recognise that as a situation to run away from. Unfortunate but these days no one, and girls especially, can afford to trust strangers.

When she refused, Jeff should have offered her the umbrella and left.

 

[Joni]

I wouldn't call it sexist, it is just insanely creepy. Maybe if you're already walking in the same direction and a have a big umbrella you can suggest sharing it. But jumping out of the car? Yeah, that is scary to me, as a big dude.

 

[wazoo]

Dude, girl walking alone at night is suddenly approached by (drunk?) stranger who wants to walk her home.

Add OP following them on a car and yeah, unfortunately the situation just gets understandably frightening for a girl.

(Edit: lol reading that again sounds like a good sketch for something like dumb and dumber )

Yes, said like this, it is creepy. The bad thing is that in the 50's, the girl would have not been scared. In our current society, feeded by horror news, definitely.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Yes, said like this, it is creepy. The bad thing is that in the 50's, the girl would have not been scared. In our current society, feeded by horror news, definitely.

I think you've bought into it yourself if you fear claims of harassment so much.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Yes, said like this, it is creepy. The bad thing is that in the 50's, the girl would have not been scared. In our current society, feeded by horror news, definitely.

I am going to guarantee you that a single girl in the city in the 50s would have been just as scared when a random stranger jumps out of his car and starts walking her home. She might not have turned him away out of fear actually.

Don't hold up the 50s or other eras as these magical times when men and women got along perfectly and everyone was nice. It's bullshit. There was more sexism, harassment and assault back then. Just unreported because they weren't taken serious.

 

[KernelPanic]

A lot of problems with this "modern chivalry". The people who do this lack self awareness and don't realize there's a time and a place for this stuff and following someone home with an umbrella is creepy as hell. They also don't pick up on what should be obvious signs that they're making someone uncomfortable and should back off.

And yes there's the awkward "nice guys" who expect something in return, who have perhaps ruined this concept.

 

[Jobbs]

Doing something nice for someone is creepy?

Pretty sure that women don't want to be followed around by strange men. She didn't ask for help, just leave her alone. It was fucking creepy as hell.

My ex has all kinds of stories she can tell about randoms saying things/doing things/following her and none of it was fun for her.

Don't follow women you don't know

 

[SpaceWolf]

Sometimes when I'm traveling with female friends/acquaintances, I ask if I can carry their suitcases for them. I just ask because I like helping them out and feel more comfortable when I'm doing so. This thread is kind of making me worry whether that instinct is sexist in and of itself.

 

[DeathyBoy]

She's already wearing a hoodie, so why did Jeff go to her to cover her? Clearly not for practical reasons. You might not think he's a sexist, but ask him his general opinion about women, then you might get some quite conservative answers

Is this a missing episode of Coupling?

 

[g11]

By the dictionary definition, it is sexist. That said, as long as it's nothing too weird or you back off if the woman makes it clear she doesn't want your help, I'd say it's innocuous sexism.

 

[tanooki27]

There ain't nothing sexist about paying on a first date.

expecting something out of someone solely because of their sex seems pretty sexist.

 

[Pagusas]

Wow... how much more creepy can you get.

Like does common sense just go out the window with some men?

 

[Steel]

Sometimes when I'm traveling with female friends/acquaintances, I ask if I can carry their suitcases for them. I just ask because I like helping them out and feel more comfortable when I'm doing so. This thread is kind of making me worry whether that instinct is sexist in and of itself.

You know them, that's fine. What would be the equivalent of the OP is going up to someone in the baggage claim area randomly and saying "Hey, can I help carry your suitcase?"

 

[ironmang]

You know them, that's fine. What would be the equivalent of the OP is going up to someone in the baggage claim area randomly and saying "Hey, can I help carry your suitcase?"

When riding the amtrak it's pretty common for me to offer putting the large carryon of some 50+ year old short woman in the overhead rack. Is there anything wrong with that?

 

[Joni]

When riding the amtrak it's pretty common for me to offer putting the large carryon of some 50+ year old short woman in the overhead rack. Is there anything wrong with that?

No, you have a reason to be there and you see a problem - older person with heavy carryon - that you can solve.

 

[wazoo]

There ain't nothing sexist about paying on a first date.

So paying is sexist but not paying is cheap.

 

[Jawbreaker]

Just fucking split the bill on the first date. Problem solved. No one feels like they're potentially being taken advantage of if you're both putting in an equal amount.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Out of curiosity, how many people experienced being on the opposite end of the spectrum? Meaning 'chivalry' is demanded of you?

 

[wazoo]

And yes there's the awkward "nice guys" who expect something in return, who have perhaps ruined this concept.

Then it is not chivalry anymore, but sexual predatory activity.

I remind a few years ago, the very same story, only in the full light. The girl was walking under the rain, I was in a car, I stopped and proposed to bring her to the station (she had a big bag). She said no. I did not ask more. So she went alone under the rain. i met her again at the station where I was also going. She was completely wet and exhausted. She probably got cold too.

 

[Pizoxuat]

If some dude suddenly came over to me with an umbrella and the intention of walking me to my next destination, my creep meter would be pinging on overdrive and I'd do anything to shake him off of me.

As for chivalry, I think it's better to just do polite stuff for everyone. If it's a habit that you do with both men and women, you won't subconsciously expect more thank a "thanks" or a nod of recognition. And if the action is something you would never do to a man, like telling him to smile, you shouldn't do it to women either.

 

[megalowho]

As far as public situations, it's not difficult to remain courteous regardless of sex when it comes to holding doors, giving space on the sidewalk and such. Targeted and over eager acts of chivalry towards random women does fall on the creepy side, reinforcing patriarchial attitudes despite intentions.

You can also still respect the agency of others while using common sense to read when a helping hand or act of kindness would be appreciated. If I'm the person walking next to a mother that needs to carry a baby stroller up a flight of stairs, of course I'll offer to help. Give up my seat on the subway for a pregant woman or elderly passenger, sure. Small selfless acts, and moving right along if declined.

 

[SpaceWolf]

Then it is not chivalry anymore, but sexual predatory activity.

I remind a few years ago, the very same story, only in the full light. The girl was walking under the rain, I was in a car, I stopped and proposed to bring her to the station (she had a big bag). She said no. I did not ask more. So she went alone under the rain. i met her again at the station where I was also going. She was completely wet and exhausted. She probably got cold too.

In all fairness, she was probably pretty wise not to clamber into the car of a complete stranger.

 

[wazoo]

In all fairness, she was probably pretty wise not to clamber into the car of a complete stranger.

And she died of cold ...

I did not blame her, but our society.

 

[King Tubby]

I try to be courteous toward everyone, man or woman. I might do things for a woman that I wouldn't do for a man, like offer to walk them home late at night (if she's someone I know) or help them carry a heavy box up the stairs or whatever. Maybe that's chivalry, but idgaf, and I wouldn't insist if she said no.

I definitely would not hop out of a car and get ride up alongside a stranger and hold an umbrella for them in the rain. That's just really creepy.