Support NeoGAF

[Aion002]

Not really.

I respect the creators ideas and I judge games exclusively on how much I enjoy playing them.


For example, I hate Aloy from the Horizon games because she is extremely boring and a insufferable Mary Sue.

Aloy being ugly or chubby (according to some people) and being a woman isn't an issue for me.

If a studio wants to push inclusivity or whatever ideology they have, I simply judge on how well they do it.

 

[Quezacolt]

Never cared about inclusivity in a game. I want cool characters, well designed, well writen, with charisma. If its a "mute" characters, at least i want them to be good looking.

Even when i play games with character creators, most of the time, i just go with the default look, since most of the time, it will look better than anything i would make. And if its a game where i can wear full armor, i dont even care if the character looks good or not, it will be covered from head to toes.

 

[bitbydeath]

Inclusion should be about skills and interests.
Something your born with or have no control over doesn’t make you special.

 

[shamoomoo]

Inclusion means quotas, it's not a natural creation/making/hiring process, etc. Imagine a world full of mediocre people who don't deserve the position the quotas gave them.

What's the opposite then? Exclusion occurs because a person or group doesn't want competition or the want to maintain their privileges. Exclusion does have benefits in a certain context.

 

[Danjin44]

I judge the game based on my taste and my taste alone, I dont give rat ass about other reviewers or even GAF's opinion.....I will play what I want.

I have zero interest in "woke" or "anti-woke" nonsense.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

No.

When I buy stuff, I look for a good product at a good price. Simple.

I'll evaluate political topics when it's time to vote for a prime minister.

 

[Markio128]

I don’t look for it, so I very rarely notice it. I just see them as games, simple as that really.

 

[Arsic]

I’m white as Casper the ghost.

I’ve said it before and I just don’t want to play as women or black women. It’s become the new shaved head white guy trope of the Xbox 360 era.

Please God start casting Latino male leads, black male leads, red headed Irish male leads, Indian male leads, etc.

We never even came close to tapping male leads before swapping to black women as the most dominate IP lead the last few years. It’s insane.

 

[lh032]

i just want a good game.
its that simple.

 

[onQ123]

To be honest, I do not give a rats ass about what race or gender of the player I play as. Make it a good fucking game and I will play it. The story is a big part of the experience. However, when they force this "inclusive" ideas down our throat it is obvious and becomes cringy or detracts from the stroy. The Point I hate is when they force this "inclusive" bullshit down our throats and it is fairly easy too see. The only thing I want to include is my balls against their chin for pushing Political Agenda's into videogames.

Some May be confused what a sign of inclusive is. It's not putting X race or X gender into a videogame. It's Forcing X race or X gender into a video game to virtue signal and putting said Gender/Race into a total unrealistic or stupid situation .

Ex: I do not want to see a White slave in roots or see Black emperor in Japan. It's just not realistic and tell it's forced.
I also hate Girlbosses: I do not mind powerful women but Girlbosses are flat out bitches that are far from anything authentic.

The greatest videogame character of all time is an Italian plumber that goes around stomping turtles after getting his girlfriend taken by a gigantic snapping turtle/ dragon every few months that haven't fixed 1 toilet in the last 40 years.

Enjoy the games & stop making everything about yourself.

 

[AJUMP23]

It isn’t important in anything. Just tell a good story.

 

[ByWatterson]

It's not a binary question.

"Non-binary," if you will.

Diverse stories and perspectives mean that we're more likely to find great ones - if everything is on the table, the likelihood of diamonds in the rough goes up.

But when it's shoehorned in, it's only diverse in its attempted (and often failed) commercial appeal.

But it's cool AF that Miles gets to be authentically Puerto Rican. More of that!....organically.

 

[Madonis]

It's not important to me in general, either way, unless the setting or the story would benefit from inclusion.

 

[jason10mm]

Loved this game.

Diversity isn't the issue, its FORCED diversity, often only in one direction, to fit an ulterior agenda. Checklists are the death of creativity and vision. Knowing I'm gonna get "a talking to" during the game because I'm the dominate audience but I'm "the wrong type of person" also annoys me. If you are gonna preach to me, at least have some tittays.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Did ANY Nintendo games care about Inclusion?
No, and this is because Nintendo games is about gameplay. Everything else is just cosmetic.

And what did that get Nintendo? Games that sell, no matter how much the company annoy us in a myriad of other ways. Because gameplay is king.

"But how about having Gameplay AND inclusion"?

But that is never what we get, do we? We never get both. Because one has to be the priority, because making games is hard. So hard, that if you don't focus on Gameplay then your game fails. You don't have the luxury to divert a studio's attention away from making the funnest game they can make, because even in the best of times it is a flip of a coin if your game even makes money.

Game studios never had the luxury to take the eyes away from the ball, and "Inclusivity" is one such way to drop the damn ball.

 

[paolo11]

Games are inclusive already. The reason why it was not controversial because inclusion was not forced and there is no political agenda. The characters also look good too.

Metroid, RE1, Tomb Raider, Silent Hill 3, Bayonetta, etc were well received even if the character is female. Why ? Because the games were fun and the designs are top notch

Now the designs (from Western games) suck. Look at the new Dragon Age game or this Star Wars Outlaw game. It’s so bad. Sometimes I think they are trying to get out of the video game industry by purposely making the game look bad or something.

 

[TropicanaTwista]

It is very important to me
On a scale of 1 to 10 it's at 0 for me.
And I 100 percent agree with you op.
One of the biggest forced inclusion is Abby from last of us 2.
Are there big strong muscular man looking girl in the world ??? Yes
But does it fit in the story I don't think so it takes u away from the experience that it's not realistic

Ok so I overall agree with you and OP, IDC just make compelling stories or characters and I'm in. I've never not bought a game because of the sex or skin color of the lead. But this stuff about TLoU 2 always struck me as odd.

How does Abby not fit in the story? Its a post apocalyptic world. I would argue the few women who DO survive are probably stronger and more in shape. Like there is 1000% wokeness in some video games, no doubt about it. I think if you can even make the case in TLOU 2, but Abby really isn't it for me. She's the perfect example of being not a traditional character lead that makes sense (even moreso when you look at her whole revenge angle).

 

[TropicanaTwista]

Did ANY Nintendo games care about Inclusion?
No, and this is because Nintendo games is about gameplay. Everything else is just cosmetic.

Uhh not completely. Isn't birdo a gay or trans character? They also just released a new Zelda game with Zelda as the lead, not link and I think it was earlier this year a peach game. The "issue" or " reason" Nintendo gets away with this is they don't really make games with stories, for better or for worse.

 

[Three]

Did ANY Nintendo games care about Inclusion?
No, and this is because Nintendo games is about gameplay. Everything else is just cosmetic.

Isn't the whole point of diversity and inclusion purely 'cosmetic'? Unless we're saying they should start attributing gameplay stats to ethnicities, sex, or disabilities.

Nintendo have some of their games go through this. You weren't there for the Pokemon Go controversy?



Including games with Princess Peach and Zelda as the main characters now is also about a inclusive movement in much the same way.

 

[TGO]

Two Questions
1) What's favourite Game/Film/book
2) Does the main character look anything like you.

You don't have to look like someone to relate, you're human...that's enough.

 

[MujkicHaris]

It is important in a way that I use it to filter out and ignore games that are pushing it.

Besides this, I don't usually like games with female leads. Mirror's Edge and FFVI might be only exceptions just because the roles fit so well and are presented in a plausible way.

 

[Crayon]

It's important but we've had too many high profile examples of it being done wrong for so long now.

 

[Three]

How does Abby not fit in the story? Its a post apocalyptic world. I would argue the few women who DO survive are probably stronger and more in shape. Like there is 1000% wokeness in some video games, no doubt about it. I think if you can even make the case in TLOU 2, but Abby really isn't it for me. She's the perfect example of being not a traditional character lead that makes sense (even moreso when you look at her whole revenge angle).

Not only is she a woman in a post apocalyptic world she's a soldier of the Washington Liberation Front. Her fitness fits into her background story fine. People just like to hate on her for some reason (probably because of their attachment to Joel).

 

[shamoomoo]

The greatest videogame character of all time is an Italian plumber that goes around stomping turtles after getting his girlfriend taken by a gigantic snapping turtle/ dragon every few months that haven't fixed 1 toilet in the last 40 years.

Enjoy the games & stop making everything about yourself.

I'm not sure about the creation of Mario,but Nintendo is a Japanese company. I was recently told this but Anime characters aren't supposed to represent Japanese people directly, it's the attitude and mannerism that reveal race/ethnicity.

I bring that all up because I was always confused by why some Japanese gaming companies that make games for the West don't have Japanese characters as their leads. I partially understand why,but most games made in the U.S have characters that usually look like the people designing the games.

The example for me would be Resident Evil,that game could've taken place in Japan or be a Japanese Americans. I feel like the success of foreign games should be because they are made by teams not in the U.S and in genres that some may find interesting.

 

[Three]

Remember this exchange adamsapple ?

It means they specifically wanted to place a black female lead into a game about a white male called Alan Wake. They've even said so in interviews that they did this for representation. The guy thinks this is "woke" and believes it turned off some fans who wanted the game to be predominantly Alan Wake. How many people did you hear complaining about playing a butch woman instead of Joel, a small section as Mary instead of spiderman. You're playing obtuse here trying to stir it up as racism.

4. I don't know what playing as a 'butch woman' or MJ has anything to do here? The MJ sections are minutes long and the 'butch woman' outlash was not because people weren't playing as Joel, it was mostly because of the game making you play as the character who killed a beloved fan favorite. It could have been a clown with the best one-liners and the outcome would have been the same.

Now look at this thread if you think it was not related to people complaining about the inclusion of a butch woman with Abby.

 

[onQ123]

Did ANY Nintendo games care about Inclusion?
No, and this is because Nintendo games is about gameplay. Everything else is just cosmetic.

And what did that get Nintendo? Games that sell, no matter how much the company annoy us in a myriad of other ways. Because gameplay is king.

"But how about having Gameplay AND inclusion"?

But that is never what we get, do we? We never get both. Because one has to be the priority, because making games is hard. So hard, that if you don't focus on Gameplay then your game fails. You don't have the luxury to divert a studio's attention away from making the funnest game they can make, because even in the best of times it is a flip of a coin if your game even makes money.

Game studios never had the luxury to take the eyes away from the ball, and "Inclusivity" is one such way to drop the damn ball.

Nintendo gave us Metroid & Zelda

Sure you're not playing as Zelda & Samus is in a suit most of the time but Nintendo was inclusive from the start.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Uhh not completely. Isn't birdo a gay or trans character? They also just released a new Zelda game with Zelda as the lead, not link and I think it was earlier this year a peach game. The "issue" or " reason" Nintendo gets away with this is they don't really make games with stories, for better or for worse.

Birdo was created in the West based on a different game that wasn't even Mario.

And they literally used Zelda to justify why you wouldn't use swords. They tried to use Link initially, but then the player just kept slash and spin on everything and ignored the new game mechanics. So they decided to change to Zelda to take the sword away. That's how Nintendo works; they DON'T care that Zelda is female, they do care that play testers were ignoring the Eccho powers and sticking to Link's abilities because they are already so good at playing as Link. Hence gameplay is the priority and NOT inclusion.

Nintendo gave us Metroid & Zelda

Sure you're not playing as Zelda & Samus is in a suit most of the time but Nintendo was inclusive from the start.

The one Metroid game that had Samus' gender matter was "Other M', which people hated because she was being treated like an obedient female who get scared of monsters. The one version of her that is the most gender focused is the one that sucked the most.

And as I just mentioned earlier, Zelda being playable was due to gameplay decisions. Nintendo does NOT care about the gender of their characters.

 

[Drell]

Uhh not completely. Isn't birdo a gay or trans character? They also just released a new Zelda game with Zelda as the lead, not link and I think it was earlier this year a peach game. The "issue" or " reason" Nintendo gets away with this is they don't really make games with stories, for better or for worse.

You know, having a bit of diversity isn't bad either. As long as it's not to the extent of Ubisoft wanting to make an "extremely gay" assasin's creed or putting a black samurai in shadow just because of BLM. It's not like Peach and Zelda, in their games were suddently blackwashed, became gay or trans and suddently were ranting about all white men being trash.

Of course Zelda's and (even less) Mario's stories aren't very complex, but the plots would have enough room to insert all the toxic politics blackrock loves to pay published for if Nintendo wanted to go that way.

 

[EDMIX]

You don't have to look like someone to relate, you're human...that's enough.

Love this, I agree.

Hopefully folks get this and stop this weird thing of attacking games based on the demographic of its main characters, like AC Shadows, Ghost Of Yotei , Alan Wake 2 etc

 

[SantaBanana]

Not only I dont care for it, I despise it when it's altering a character/story with different ethnicity/sexuality for absolutely no reason

 

[DeafTourette]

What if there's a game with all black or all Latino or all Indian characters? There's plenty out there right now with all white or all Asian characters

 

[Hawk The Slayer]

Definitely don't care about it especially if the Devs themselves didn't plan to make it inclusive in the first place. Devs should make whatever they want. But I'm not racist so I also don't mind if the game includes characters from multiple races either as long as it fits organically into the story.

 

[IFireflyl]

Inclusion is bad.
Exclusion is bad.

Stop making games using either of these ideologies. Make a game that YOU want. If the game fails then you at least put your heart and soul into something you cared about; that is something you can be proud of. If it succeeds then congratulations are in order for turning your dream into reality.

 

[TropicanaTwista]

You know, having a bit of diversity isn't bad either. As long as it's not to the extent of Ubisoft wanting to make an "extremely gay" assasin's creed or putting a black samurai in shadow just because of BLM. It's not like Peach and Zelda, in their games were suddently blackwashed, became gay or trans and suddently were ranting about all white men being trash.

Never said it was. In fact, in my post I mentioned how I don't care and have never in my life refused to buy a game because of the way the main character looked. With that being age, sex, race, etc.

My overall point was, people call anything wokeness. One could make the case Nintendo did that this year. Maybe I'm missing a game but I can't recall Zelda or peach having a mainline game very often, if ever.... Do I think Nintendo is being woke? Na, I think they just try different things and are trying to innovate with some characters that are long standing. So I don't really care, the peach game wasn't for me, but I love Zelda so I bought day 1. My response though was to a poster who said Nintendo was never woke or tried to push an agenda but I think if someone really wanted to, this year could be an example of that.

 

[Toons]

Absolutely.

Its certainly better than exclusion.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

What if there's a game with all black or all Latino or all Indian characters? There's plenty out there right now with all white or all Asian characters

You can do that when you figure out how to make a GOOD GAME. People who know how to make good games, earn the right to make the game the way they like it. Kojima know how to make good games so he puts in the game his hobbies and preferences, as his privilege of being the game maker.

If you like games a certain way, then make a good game out of it so people would buy it. if you can't even figure out how to make a good game, don't complain that people wouldn't pay you money to buy it. To insert your personal taste into a game is reserved for those who actually know what they are doing, not amateurs.

Do I think Nintendo is being woke? Na, I think they just try different things and are trying to innovate with some characters that are long standing.

It is neither. Nintendo used Zelda as a gameplay restriction so the playtesters would stop using the damn sword all the time. Nintendo doe NOT think about gender, only gameplay. The game was originally played as Link, the game just didn't work that way so changes were made to make a better game.

That's the key, it is all about making a better game, inclusion or exclusion gets in the way of that.

 

[Tams]

Isn’t it enough that every other thread devolves into this topic, do we really need another one? I’m on GAF to talk about games.

It devolves into this because they are making games worse partly because of this. Whether it be directly or because they waste resources on diversity instead of making the game better.

 

[EviLore]

 

[DeafTourette]

You can do that when you figure out how to make a GOOD GAME. People who know how to make good games, earn the right to make the game the way they like it. Kojima know how to make good games so he puts in the game his hobbies and preferences, as his privilege of being the game maker.

If you like games a certain way, then make a good game out of it so people would buy it. if you can't even figure out how to make a good game, don't complain that people wouldn't pay you money to buy it. To insert your personal taste into a game is reserved for those who actually know what they are doing, not amateurs.

It's complicated but there's very few, if any, big devs that are owned and run by black people in the US. Not because of player demographics... Like I said, it's a complicated issue. At least when it comes to devs/writers being able to get games made THEY want to make. Even fewer are Latino

 

[Tams]

Isn't the whole point of diversity and inclusion purely 'cosmetic'? Unless we're saying they should start attributing gameplay stats to ethnicities, sex, or disabilities.

Nintendo have some of their games go through this. You weren't there for the Pokemon Go controversy?



Including games with Princess Peach and Zelda as the main characters now is also about a inclusive movement in much the same way.

Pokémon GO's characters was Niantic's doing, who are utterly up their arses and rather woke.

And the characters were just plain ugly.

 

[adamsapple]

Remember this exchange adamsapple ?



Now look at this thread if you think it was not related to people complaining about the inclusion of a butch woman with Abby.

I don't think there's enough users here to make a sample, on top of that there's almost as many users here saying things like it doesn't matter to them if the game is fun to play etc

Like I said, most people's disdain towards the abby character was not because she's a buff woman, it was because her introduction is killing a fan favorite character without any explanation whatsoever, and the game actually getting to that almost 15~ hours after the fact, by which time most people's opinions had been cemented.

 

[Shakka43]

It's important for me to avoid the games lol. "Inclusivity" should be something to celebrate but has been weaponized by loons so i don't like it.

 

[TGO]

Love this, I agree.

Hopefully folks get this and stop this weird thing of attacking games based on the demographic of its main characters, like AC Shadows, Ghost Of Yotei , Alan Wake 2 etc

That's a different can of worms my friend.
Ghost Of Yotei can go both ways as the actress is the problem, not the character.
Just because she's like that doesn't mean it'll make into the game.
But can we really be that naive, and that's the problem they have created.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

It's complicated but there's very few, if any, big devs that are owned and run by black people in the US. Not because of player demographics... Like I said, it's a complicated issue. At least when it comes to devs/writers being able to get games made THEY want to make. Even fewer are Latino

And yet do you want someone who are alien to your culture to make a half-assed portrayal of that culture? You end up with Assassins Creed Shadows.

Making games is hard, and to portray cultures with respect is hard if you are not a part of it. Chinese mythology really hadn't been done right in games for decades until Black Myth Wu-Kong, but I am glad they made it.

There is a first time for anything. If you want a South-American themed game made in Brazil, you can certainly try. Just because no one had done it before doesn't mean it can't be done. Hell, people didn't even believe Wu-Kong was a real game for many years.
I didn't believe Wu-Kong wasn't a scam and is a real game until 6 months before launch, myself.

But the old rule still applies; if you want it done right, do it yourself. Or in this case, your own society need to make that game about yourselves. Wu Kong is VERY Chinese. Un-apologetically so. And it was only possible because the studio understands the culture from the inside.

 

[SantaBanana]

 

[DeafTourette]

And yet do you want someone who are alien to your culture to make a half-assed portrayal of that culture? You end up with Assassins Creed Shadows.

Making games is hard, and to portray cultures with respect is hard if you are not a part of it. Chinese mythology really hadn't been done right in games for decades until Black Myth Wu-Kong, but I am glad they made it.

There is a first time for anything. If you want a South-American themed game made in Brazil, you can certainly try. Just because no one had done it before doesn't mean it can't be done. Hell, people didn't even believe Wu-Kong was a real game for many years.
I didn't believe Wu-Kong wasn't a scam and is a real game until 6 months before launch, myself.

But the old rule still applies; if you want it done right, do it yourself. Or in this case, your own society need to make that game about yourselves. Wu Kong is VERY Chinese. Un-apologetically so. And it was only possible because the studio understands the culture from the inside.

That's kinda what I'm saying... Sorta. But as it stands, there's no black or Latino (or even afro-latino) owned and ran videogame studio.

Edit: in the US. And certainly not one with serious money behind it

 

[TGO]

there's very few, if any, big devs that are owned and run by black people in the US

That's because the majority of US devs are own by China now

 

[Dirk Benedict]

I never played a video game to see myself or even have any sort of semblance to a desire to be represented in a fucking game. That's for Fragiles -1.

 

[lughnasadh123]

I think it's nice putting in characters that reflect people who aren't represented in games as much as others. Doesn't do anything for me as a straight white dude, but no doubt it makes other's happy, so yeah, that's nice. I do have disabilities that while not needed to enjoy a game, would be immensely appreciated for normalizing things as a reminder that we're still human too.

Put another way, as long as we have a diverse group of people to make more people happy, then nothing is being taken away from me. I get something, others do as well.

 

[stickkidsam]

Like any sensible man, I hate playing as chicks. They’re gross. At the end of the day though I can tolerate, maybe even enjoy, any character.

Once a dev opens their mouth about inclusion as a focus though that’s a big red flag. DEI is dumb as hell. Yeah let’s end racism by encouraging our tribal inclinations rather than redirecting them. That’ll solve everything.