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Is "inclusive" important to you in gaming?
- Thread starter Gamer79
- Start date
darrylgorn
Member
Only if the actual context of the media is about inclusion. But we all know that it's almost always performative and that's why we find it infantile.
GigaBowser
The bear of bad news
got barned from famiboard for saying i dont care about this crud
daninthemix
Member
Whatever they do, I just want it to feel natural. Too often I feel less like I'm playing a game, and more like I'm being preached to by self-righteous idiots.
Judge Magister
Member
No censorship is more important to me. I hate changes of the original idea just to be more polite.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
You care about inclusion, I care about quality games.
The fact that you are happy with shitty games that are inclusive, is just proof that you want the games to exist but to not BUY them. That you just want inclusive games made but REFUSE to open your wallets to fund them. That is called being a hypocrite.
I care about quality games, and will not buy garbage that just happened to be inclusive.
The numbers are plain and simple, games made for inclusivity as a goal are both of lower quality as a game AND lose money as no one buys them.
Another thing, I hate GAAS. But clearly people are having fun with them and paying for good GAAS games. So I let them have their fun. People should get what they paid for. And games that don't have an audience deserve to die.
If your perfect game doesn't exist, make it. But don't expect someone else to make it for you to the exclusion of the actual paying customer.
You reminded me of the people who complained about a lack of support for women's sports, but the person complaining do not attend female sports events themselves.
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Loboxxx
Member
It is certainly important, but it must be natural, as opposed to imposed, as that creates rejection.
I think most people nowadays want a variety of genres and for everyone to be represented to a greater or lesser extent, and that's a wonderful thing for obvious reasons. The problem arises when entertainment megacorporations (like Disney...) insist on indoctrinating the world through their fandom products, creating trends across the industry. They do it poorly, hastily, forcefully, and on a massive scale. When this persists over time, conflicts begin to emerge. Where diversity was once being naturally assimilated by society, these megacorporations now manage to create problems and radicalization within society.
We have reached a point where diversity generates rejection. Now it’s time to regain lost ground. Thank you, Disney...
I think most people nowadays want a variety of genres and for everyone to be represented to a greater or lesser extent, and that's a wonderful thing for obvious reasons. The problem arises when entertainment megacorporations (like Disney...) insist on indoctrinating the world through their fandom products, creating trends across the industry. They do it poorly, hastily, forcefully, and on a massive scale. When this persists over time, conflicts begin to emerge. Where diversity was once being naturally assimilated by society, these megacorporations now manage to create problems and radicalization within society.
We have reached a point where diversity generates rejection. Now it’s time to regain lost ground. Thank you, Disney...
SiegeDamage
Member
Do not care whatsoever
kubricks
Member
I find those producers who use "Inclusivity" and "Minority" as a human shield to promote their radical ideas to be fucking disgusting.
Whether a game is "inclusive" or not has always been a strawman argument.
A good story that resonates with the population has always depicted struggle and achievement of people from different origins, regardless of whether the story is interracial.
A shit story will always be a shit story no matter how many social agenda you throw into it.
This comes from someone who is not American and not white.
Whether a game is "inclusive" or not has always been a strawman argument.
A good story that resonates with the population has always depicted struggle and achievement of people from different origins, regardless of whether the story is interracial.
A shit story will always be a shit story no matter how many social agenda you throw into it.
This comes from someone who is not American and not white.
Mr Reasonable
Completely Unreasonable
Nobody is happy with shitty games.
Here’s the thing; inclusion is absolutely a good thing. But it’s also important to understand; people want to play as characters they relate to. And yes, sometimes that means characters that look like them. I was bullied as a kid for having red hair, so it meant a lot to me on the 2-3 occasions I found a game with a male character with red hair (pretty much just Chrono Trigger and Diablo 2 come to mind).
So I think it’s important to have games for everyone, where everyone can have cool characters they want to be like.
The important thing to understand is that, almost by definition, no game can appeal to everyone in that way. And so trying to appeal to everyone at the same time is a fool’s errand, and can risk alienating your core audience as well.
Every game doesn’t need to star a straight white male. But there were a lot of games that did in the 90’s and early 2000’s, so it attracted a lot of straight white male gamers. There’s a reason that is the common stereotype of a “gamer”, for better or worse. So you have to understand that those gamers still want to play as straight white male characters, at least generally speaking (everyone can appreciate a cool character that falls outside your own personal norm).
I think it’s just kind of an important factor to keep in mind; that players often want to play as characters that look like them, or act like them. That’s the ultimate player-fantasy, to feel like *you* could be the hero of the story.
So I think inclusion is important, but again, it’s just important to understand who your target audience is.
So I think it’s important to have games for everyone, where everyone can have cool characters they want to be like.
The important thing to understand is that, almost by definition, no game can appeal to everyone in that way. And so trying to appeal to everyone at the same time is a fool’s errand, and can risk alienating your core audience as well.
Every game doesn’t need to star a straight white male. But there were a lot of games that did in the 90’s and early 2000’s, so it attracted a lot of straight white male gamers. There’s a reason that is the common stereotype of a “gamer”, for better or worse. So you have to understand that those gamers still want to play as straight white male characters, at least generally speaking (everyone can appreciate a cool character that falls outside your own personal norm).
I think it’s just kind of an important factor to keep in mind; that players often want to play as characters that look like them, or act like them. That’s the ultimate player-fantasy, to feel like *you* could be the hero of the story.
So I think inclusion is important, but again, it’s just important to understand who your target audience is.
MALpractice311
Member
Bingo.
I've enjoyed media, to include games, that have had characters that are white, black, Asian, Latino, Native American, male, female, straight, gay, etc. Likewise, I've also hated media to include all of those things.
It all comes down to the writing. And that has been my problem with so much of Western developed games in the last 5ish years. The writing is all awful and juvenile. It just seems like the vast majority of current writers for games, TV, and movies grew up on nothing but Joss Whedon writing and are doing shitty impressions of him. Over. And over. And over.
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Mr Wonderstuff
Banned
Inclusion for inclusion's sake is not a good look. However, representing the world and social make-up we live in is no bad thing (even if that is uncomfortable for people). Living in a bubble and echo-chamber of a forum like this can certaintly warp your sense of perspective and creates an 'us vs them' mentality which is unhealthy. I'm more curious why people are so triggered by certain representations and react so strongly to, say, Abbie from the Last of Us being too masculine and "not fitting the story" or "realistic" - utter bollox.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
? Ok...so....lets start by replying based on what the person is saying.
No where in this persons post are they saying that, you are just assuming it and you whole post is wild assumption and generalization.
They said they refuse to spend money on those games? Where?
Or, you can just talk to them, ask them truly how they feel about this, stop with this weird "you are" or "you just want" or "you care" or "You reminded me"
They are right here to confirm and answer any of that instead of this wild rage posting, nothing in their post is saying this...
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DeltaPolarBear
Member
What matters isn't someone being triggered or not. What matters is that gaming is a product that cost money to buy, and if you forget you are suppose to please your CUSTOMERS, you can go be a starving artist in a street corner.
Any kind of product that has things added to it deliberately to make it less desirable, is suicidal to the product. We have established that those who demand the recent changes to gaming, don't actually BUY these games. This means they have no right to make those changes to begin with.
A vegan does not get to tell other people how a good steak is suppose to taste. People who buy games, get to decide what kind of games get made. And if the games that were made were not fit for consumption then that game studio DIES. Justifiably.
Gaming is an optional hobby, people do not need to purchase it. If you make a bad gaming product, it would FAIL.
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No, I don't give a shit. I just want the games to be good, I don't care if the characters are black, white, hetero, homo, etc.
What I don't like is having this pushed down my throat. When it is clear that a certain char is x, y, z just to appeal a certain audience, then that's a bit ridiculous.
What I don't like is having this pushed down my throat. When it is clear that a certain char is x, y, z just to appeal a certain audience, then that's a bit ridiculous.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Even this is a myth!!
Case in Point! Hollywood.
Hollywood has been making films starring gorgeous white people, about mostly gorgeous white people for literally decades, and it has grown to global prominence, literally printing billions in theatrical ticket sales in countries where the majority population is not white.
It's frankly an insane, insulting myth that POC NEED to feel represented in the media they consume.
I'm a black man, and never once have I felt a burning desire to see black people represented in media. Nor do I even find it notable, exceptional or special when they are; with the sole exception of when movies or media is made set in black majority communities to specifically tell black stories.
Like, I love Tyler Perry movies and the African American rom-coms from the 90s. But those aren't big Hollywood movies. They're smaller indie movies made by black people for black people.
I don't need majority white devs living up in California, shoehorning in token black characters in their games because they somehow think I will commit suicide if I don't see a black face on my screen every 5 minutes while playing their games.
Inclusion in the games industry should come naturally from companies fostering developer talent from non-white countries in the world. Japanese making Japanese games, Korean making Korean games, Chinese making Chinese games, Indians making Indian games, and African studios making African games. That's the kind of inclusion I'd like to see. Because those living in those regions and cultures are the best people to speak to their cultural experiences and share the stories that form their cultural heritage. Anything else is just inauthentic and trite.
nush
Member
Agree. Us gamers play a metric shitton of games with Asian protags. However because Asians are ranked low on the oppression pyramid that somehow doesn't count.
cireza
Member
Inclusivity is irrelevant. It is unrelated to a game being good or bad, thus, I don't care about it and it is off topic when explaining to me why a game is good.
This is the same thing when you hire people. You start failing as soon as you start looking at irrelevant aspects such as this one, instead of hiring based purely on the skills of the person for the job.
This is the same thing when you hire people. You start failing as soon as you start looking at irrelevant aspects such as this one, instead of hiring based purely on the skills of the person for the job.
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EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
.....ummm I mean global as in for different countries they have different demographics
Like India has its films about its people etc.
So...I think you may have jumped the gun on this one as nothing you are saying is what I'm implying by that statement.
Unless you think German people making films, books and games about Germany is forced inclusivity or something lol So yea, its important to the industry in a global way as different markets will attract different things
(keep in mind the thing you are saying near the end of your post is my point....)
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DeltaPolarBear
Member
It is interesting that all the talk of Inclusivity over the years, and yet it took a Chinese company to make a truly AAA game about Chinese myths. No one is stopping people from making a game about a 400 year old novel that had entered public domain since forever. And yet no one in the West touched it... I guess it isn't actually Inclusive unless it is about what is popular on ticktok.
PatientGamer
Member
No. Whilst I think it's good to have variety in MC designs, forcing through 'diversity' into existing franchises just exacerbates the tonkenisation issue we have in the west.
Nobody complained about Adewale existing in AC: Freedom Cry. Whilst I'm sure people in here were making racist remarks during the time of release, the vast majority of people were of sane mind. Can you imagine having a white guy going around freeing black slaves in that game lol?
But literally rewriting characters to make them into something they're not, is just offensive. And is arguably just as bad as the racism they're trying to combat.
It all began when Naughty Dog changed Chloe's face... "oh look she's Asian now. Didn't you know?"
It's been a slow decline ever since.
Nobody complained about Adewale existing in AC: Freedom Cry. Whilst I'm sure people in here were making racist remarks during the time of release, the vast majority of people were of sane mind. Can you imagine having a white guy going around freeing black slaves in that game lol?
But literally rewriting characters to make them into something they're not, is just offensive. And is arguably just as bad as the racism they're trying to combat.
It all began when Naughty Dog changed Chloe's face... "oh look she's Asian now. Didn't you know?"
It's been a slow decline ever since.
Ojeteespacial
Neo Member
Inclusive is forcing, not representing reality.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
What I really dislike isn't inclusivity but how obvious it so often is, how its pushed where its not needed or doesn't make sense.
Men and women are fundamentally different with regards to emotions, mentality, physical strength, job choices, etc. but in modern western video games there's a tendency to make female characters not just looking less feminine but as aggressive and strong as men. In the Horizon series there are just as many female as there are male warriors and the most accomplished pit challenge fighter of them all is an old woman. It would be logical to expect the best fighter of all to be man but it's politically incorrect to say or show that these days.
Stereotypical gender representations have to be subverted, so characters who work in typically masculine professions (weaponsmiths, miners, etc) are now female in western games. It's more important to show that "women can do everything!" than to reflect the actual job choices the vast majority of men and women make. It's all so obvious and it annoys me no end.
Men and women are fundamentally different with regards to emotions, mentality, physical strength, job choices, etc. but in modern western video games there's a tendency to make female characters not just looking less feminine but as aggressive and strong as men. In the Horizon series there are just as many female as there are male warriors and the most accomplished pit challenge fighter of them all is an old woman. It would be logical to expect the best fighter of all to be man but it's politically incorrect to say or show that these days.
Stereotypical gender representations have to be subverted, so characters who work in typically masculine professions (weaponsmiths, miners, etc) are now female in western games. It's more important to show that "women can do everything!" than to reflect the actual job choices the vast majority of men and women make. It's all so obvious and it annoys me no end.
RPCGamer
Neophyte
I think a lot of these types of topics have been blown completely out of proportion by those on both sides highlighting the worst cases of it for their point. We then have those on social media etc using it to fuel their own popularity. Yes, there are some horrible people making comments and actions etc on both sides, but I don't think it's that common in reality - people are too busy dealing with their own lives etc to be bothered by some random internet crap. Pretty much every source of media has inclusion and I think most people are fine with.
Just an observation, but the pattern seems to be people don't like a character or moment etc in media and it then becomes an "issue". The social media "experts" then amplify the drama around it and then it eventually blows over. Meanwhile, we have learnt nothing as to why people people didn't like the character or moment as it was pushed aside by assumption. There are plenty of examples throughout history showing people are typically fine with media regardless if it has a strong inclusion factor. What people usually don't like is when it's done badly and sticks out in the story or world.
Just an observation, but the pattern seems to be people don't like a character or moment etc in media and it then becomes an "issue". The social media "experts" then amplify the drama around it and then it eventually blows over. Meanwhile, we have learnt nothing as to why people people didn't like the character or moment as it was pushed aside by assumption. There are plenty of examples throughout history showing people are typically fine with media regardless if it has a strong inclusion factor. What people usually don't like is when it's done badly and sticks out in the story or world.
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Negotiator
Member
Chloe was Australian/Caucasian in Uncharted 2 (2009) and suddenly in The Lost Legacy (2017) she became Asian/Indian...
I was very vocal to mention it from the very first day back then, but few people were willing to listen to me.
Naughty Dog has become a shell of its former self.
Moriarty1889
Member
Inclusive and diverse have become the most overused and irritating words as of late. Just make good games and stop talking about this shite. Games always had their share of diversity and weren’t forced like it is today in everything.
Sure,but where's the proof of that?
If you are in a position of power, then you could choose how many people will be accounted for in a quota system.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
Nether matters. Because regardless of your attempt at ignoring the matter, the result is horrible games that people don't purchase.
You are trying to talk about morality, when the problem is economics. DEI is trying to take a business, that of making software to sell to consumers, and trying to make it a propaganda tool.
The issue with propaganda tools, is that they tend to be handed out for free because no one is willing to PAY for pamphlets. DEI is trying to spread politics and killing the games they are using to spread their politics. And the reason is that DEI game developers are stupid and incompetent, thus not being able to understand that games need to sell.
So here we are, game studios are struggling because games they spent 6 years making ended up crashing and burning, people are being laid off and once legendary game franchises die... And here you are trying to say " there is fault on both sides".
No there is not. If DEI game devs were competent at their jobs at making good games we wouldn't be in this position. The problem isn't DEI or anti-DEI, it is that DEI game devs should never be allowed to make game dev decisions ever gain because THEY SUCK.
winjer
Gold Member
A few years ago, I was watching TV and while switching channels, I noticed there was an Angolan series on one of the channels. And the production quality was good, this was not some amateurish thing.
And as expected, all actors in that Angolan series were black. And suddenly, I see the token white Portuguese woman.
It was funny to see the roles reversed, but it makes sense, because that is how the real world is.
I think that most western companies that make tv, films and games, think they are the only ones that are making these.
It might be true for the huge blockbusters. But there are so many countries making their own art, with their own culture.
S0ULZB0URNE
Member
No it's both.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
Good games are good games. I don’t care about anything else.
Both sides of this issue are whiny snowflakes.
Both sides of this issue are whiny snowflakes.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
Only one side is making bad games that don't sell and drive massive losses on game studios. The other side walk away with heavy wallets that they can spare to spend on some other product they would actually enjoy.
Skill Issue.
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EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
As a fan of lots of international television (speaking a few different languages) its fun to see how different cultures have films and shows that are massive overseas and just almost non-existent in the west. You even see lots of the same themes repeated universally which is kinda funny
So I agree with most of you post, but the highlighted...I'm not so sure. I think in all those mediums, other culture are deeply known, maybe more in those mediums then almost anything. Film, Tv, Games, they are so deeply internationally, its not even funny. Think about it like this, if you are in Germany and you take a class on game design, who doesn't know Mario? If you are in France and they are doing a class on film, it would be odd that they didn't over Citizen Kane or something, so those mediums for what ever reason seem to transcend internationally more then most imho
If anything, look at how the west takes from different countries or how different countries take from the west lol
Like the Let Me In western version
The Departed aka Infernal Affairs
True Lies
Insomnia
:max_bytes(150000):strip_icc()/MCDOLNS_EC001-7258211dcaef44d8bbb5221f22b3135c.jpg)
edit (honorable mention, a Colombian Version of Breaking Bad exist)
I feel visual mediums like gaming, film and tv, they seem to be more aware of whats going on around the world, even more so now with the internet, so.....yea, they 100% know and aware of whats happening overseas. I'd say its rare to find any company that has all of its staff completely unaware of the rest of the world, that would be odd and strange lol
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Tajaz2426
Psychology PhD from Wikipedia University
I have never cared who the character is, as long as the game is enjoyable. I’ve never went to a movie because a guy or girl was the lead, but because I was interested in the story. I never cared who the sex or sexuality of a character was as long as the story is written detailed enough to put myself in the book with my imagination and I am still like that.
I didn’t care a woman beat an alien in her underwear, as she went through all the trials and tribulations of a main character. What I do not read or watch is Mary Sue type characters whether they are men or women and have no issues in their lives, they have all moral high ground, they need no training and are already better than the master like the Hill and She Hull, or the new Star Wars. Those things I stay away from.
I also stay away from heroes or characters that have to make men or women look bad to look good themselves.
I do not care for diversity, or inclusiveness because I just care about the story and how the character is driven through their heroes journey.
I could sit here and go through all the characters that I have enjoyed that are black, Asian, female, orange, guerrilla, etc, etc, etc, but I do not care to signal my virtue, because I actually never think about it and just don’t give a fuck about it.
I only care to be entertained if I am spending money I worked my ass off for. Not for some message.
I didn’t care a woman beat an alien in her underwear, as she went through all the trials and tribulations of a main character. What I do not read or watch is Mary Sue type characters whether they are men or women and have no issues in their lives, they have all moral high ground, they need no training and are already better than the master like the Hill and She Hull, or the new Star Wars. Those things I stay away from.
I also stay away from heroes or characters that have to make men or women look bad to look good themselves.
I do not care for diversity, or inclusiveness because I just care about the story and how the character is driven through their heroes journey.
I could sit here and go through all the characters that I have enjoyed that are black, Asian, female, orange, guerrilla, etc, etc, etc, but I do not care to signal my virtue, because I actually never think about it and just don’t give a fuck about it.
I only care to be entertained if I am spending money I worked my ass off for. Not for some message.
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PeteBull
Member
And it somewhat gotta make sense, same reason u wont cast Luke Cage(superhero from Harlem) as some1 else but big buff black dude, same way u shouldnt cast only male protag of japanese AC as black slave who miracolously managed to live in japan of that era.
There is a reason Geralt is a white guy, witcher books/games/tv series setting is basically middleages poland sprinkled with our slavish fables/fairy tales/legends/magic etc and we are like 99% white country(for the very simple reason poland wasnt conquering countries with ppl of colour, we had our own slaves- peons/serfs, they were white just as nobility but simply poor instead).
Serfdom in Poland - Wikipedia
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
? Ok...so....lets start by replying based on what the person is saying.
No where in this persons post are they saying that, you are just assuming it and you whole post is wild assumption and generalization.
They said they refuse to spend money on those games? Where?
Or, you can just talk to them, ask them truly how they feel about this, stop with this weird "you are" or "you just want" or "you care" or "You reminded me"
They are right here to confirm and answer any of that instead of this wild rage posting, nothing in their post is saying this...
I actually read the post and wasn't sure what was happening there.
winjer
Gold Member
As a fan of lots of international television (speaking a few different languages) its fun to see how different cultures have films and shows that are massive overseas and just almost non-existent in the west. You even see lots of the same themes repeated universally which is kinda funny
So I agree with most of you post, but the highlighted...I'm not so sure. I think in all those mediums, other culture are deeply known, maybe more in those mediums then almost anything. Film, Tv, Games, they are so deeply internationally, its not even funny. Think about it like this, if you are in Germany and you take a class on game design, who doesn't know Mario? If you are in France and they are doing a class on film, it would be odd that they didn't over Citizen Kane or something, so those mediums for what ever reason seem to transcend internationally more then most imho
If anything, look at how the west takes from different countries or how different countries take from the west lol
Like the Let Me In western version
The Departed aka Infernal Affairs
True Lies
Insomnia
edit (honorable mention, a Colombian Version of Breaking Bad exist)
I feel visual mediums like gaming, film and tv, they seem to be more aware of whats going on around the world, even more so now with the internet, so.....yea, they 100% know and aware of whats happening overseas. I'd say its rare to find any company that has all of its staff completely unaware of the rest of the world, that would be odd and strange lol
You are right that western media has a certain prevalence around the world. But it's far from being the sole form of production.
For example, India and China now have huge film productions, that can rival some western movie studios. And they tell their stories in their own perspective, with their own culture. And these films are watched all around the world.
The real big problem today, is that a lot of western companies have a white knight complex, so they think they must save the whole world and all the races. Which in itself is very stupid and extremely racist.
Worst yet, a westerner won't be able to fully understand the total significance of the culture and art from another country.
Here is an example, whenever there is an event in a western country, celebrating China, we always go overboard and put golden dragons everywhere.
The problem is that the dragon in China is a symbol associated with nobility, especially the emperor. So the dragon should only be used in special cases.
But even the example you said about Mario, that is a Japanese made game, with an Italian character. And it's famous all around the world.
And then we can take Journey to the West, which is a huge in Asia. And is also well known in western countries, mostly because so many Asian games, tv and films are inspired by it.
The thing is, every country and every people are capable of creating art. Even if they don't have huge budgets, they can still create influential work.
EDMIX
Writes a lot, says very little
This is truth.
You can find hidden gems all over the world, for a few years all I did was just watching foreign shows and films.
Killjoy-NL
Gold Member
Couldnt give 2 shits.
TropicanaTwista
Member
Yes there would most likely be more men. That does not mean there would be zero women... And on top of that, the women they were still around would most likely been more built in order to survive. Its not a stretch to act like Abby was some abnormal character given the circumstances