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Is "inclusive" important to you in gaming?

Is inclusion important to you in videogames?

  • Yes

    Votes: 38 4.9%
  • No

    Votes: 744 95.1%

  • Total voters
    782

Kamina

Golden Boy
Fuck no; at least not the type Sweet Baby is trying to enforce.
There are too many mindsets, opinions and traits to make everyone happy at all times, so the safest bet is to go for what the majority wants. Videogames are nobody’s safe-zones, they are products for entertainment. Artificially added things in games or movies just to tick DEI boxes is always something that will stick out like a sore thumb.
 
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Game designers can make whatever type of game they want, with whatever type of character they want. I wasn't saying they shouldn't so I am confused how you reached that conclusion from my post. I am simply speaking of when game designers do something "for the sake of it" or put another way "token inclusion", where a game designer is doing something because they want to be seen as "inclusive" and not because that was their original goal or what they wanted to do. When it's like that, it is very obvious. You completely missed my point.
How do you know thats not what they want?

Since its so obvious why dont you give me some examples of games where someone forced game devs to put a dyke or whatever in game.
 
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Lethal01

Member
Lets see, at 42yo now and loved gaming since i discovered it so around 7yo when started going to school- communism just fell in our country and on the way to/back from school we had nasty arcade saloon where bunch of thugs gathered, but for a 1stgrader it was place closest to heaven- looked somewhat similar to this
images


Out of tens of thousands of games i always play male characters, exceptions being when im actually forced to play as female, so tomb raider games, both og ones and new trilogy, other than that characters with fixed sex in diablo series(altho rogue in d1 had fraction of playtime my sorc and warrior had, maybe 1/100th), forced lil bit of ellie in first TLOU, obviously couldnt stomach part2 even tho i love amazing graphics and owned ps4 from early 2014 to this very day, other than this oldie games with female protag i barely remember but were good- fear effect, and dino crisis, ps3 gen ones- pretty solid hack and slash heavenly sword.

Thats kinda it, years of playing WoW, so many souls and souls alike games, morrowind/oblivion/skyrim and so many other games with char creator and never fellt even slight need of making female character- 100% times its just buff white dude, yes even if i play as a mage i want it to be gymrat mage :)

So your saying inclusivity is important since you need a specific skin and gender to be included to enjoy it
 

PanzerAzel

Member
No, I don’t seek personal validation in life from superficial checkboxes ticked off to supposedly acknowledge and encapsulate my existence and identity. Attempts to “include” have done nothing of the sort. They never did, and they never will.
 

PeteBull

Member
So your saying inclusivity is important since you need a specific skin and gender to be included to enjoy it
Im saying fk so called "inclusivity" from DEI that we see in almost all western AAA games nowadays, it never made game better and many times it made game worse.
When its crucial for the devs to "cast" specific type of character it means no DEI is needed, instead common sense simply takes over(gave examples too so woke clowns cant pretend they are dumber than they are;p).

Fake edit: Another example of sanity instead of inclusivity is Jin from Ghost of Tsushima- or Delsin from Infamous SS-it simply makes sense, for every1 and both games were great coz whole dev trouthput was focused on making actual high quality games instead of forcefully putting into them characters that dont make sense/dont seem plausible in there:messenger_ok:
Bonus since im a Pole: BJ motherfucking Blazkowicz in all good Wolfenstein games, including Wolfenstein 3d from 1992 =D
They even used few snippets of that game in super popular polish police comedy series called 13th Precinct in late 90s

Funny anecdote, CNN from 1992 would probably be considered far right/mysogonist by todays clown world standards after they saw their coverage of the game back from the day ;p
 

nick776

Member
I think the results of this poll are most interesting, however, I would like to know the reasoning behind why 28 people said it is important. Why is it important to some people?
 

PeteBull

Member
PeteBull PeteBull

Prove me wrong. Most games in the West are geared towards straight white men. Games like Concord or that Star Wars game that flopped are NOT the majority... They're a very small minority
U wanna see true game that catered to straight dudes, here u go, sony's gow3/remaster

Show me game with such a cutscene, recent western dev big budget one, no bears/ugly females etc
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
PeteBull PeteBull

Prove me wrong. Most games in the West are geared towards straight white men. Games like Concord or that Star Wars game that flopped are NOT the majority... They're a very small minority
I know you got me on ignore, since youre a total baby in the OT section, whose gotten banned before for keeping up the victimhood game.

But maybe for once stop talking race. Or just keep it in the OT tab. For everyone who posts ad reads the OT threads, we all get it. You pump up the black and white debate all the time.
 

nick776

Member
What's the opposite then? Exclusion occurs because a person or group doesn't want competition or the want to maintain their privileges. Exclusion does have benefits in a certain context.
I think you make the fallacious assumption that exclusion is intntionally done for a benefit at all. What people may interpret as "exclusion" is their own bias coming through. If someone is hired because they are qualified and highly competent it should not matter their skin color. So, if company A hires 50 highly qualified, competent people who all happen to be white it is just lunacy to expect them to fire ten of them only to hire someone of a different race or sexual orientation who may be borderline incompetent. If a company is hiring someone because of their race, LGBTQ status, etc. then the company and/or its product deserves to fail. I think that is largely what we are seeing here with games these days.
 

PeteBull

Member
You said you cant stomach playing games without a dude so again, inclusivity is very important to you, what you want is just always included.
Dont twist my words bro, i coulndt stomach TLOU part2 coz of wokeness, like many fans of the original, thats what i said, and its the truth.

In same post i named few great games with female protags i had no problem with.
Next time read to understand, not to respond or i will start to think u are one of those western male feminists - lowest of the low, since they are guys so can observe on their own example their whole life women and men arent the same and feminism is and allways was big fat lie :p
 

PeteBull

Member
I know you got me on ignore, since youre a total baby in the OT section, whose gotten banned before for keeping up the victimhood game.

But maybe for once stop talking race. Or just keep it in the OT tab. For everyone who posts ad reads the OT threads, we all get it. You pump up the black and white debate all the time.
I got no1 on ignore, bro, putting some1 on ignore would mean to me im weakminded/cant handle my feelings/words on the net from a rando guy could hurt me.
U sure u didnt misquote me with some other guy maybe?
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I got no1 on ignore, bro, putting some1 on ignore would mean to me im weakminded/cant handle my feelings/words on the net from a rando guy could hurt me.
U sure u didnt misquote me with some other guy maybe?
Not you. Deaftourette.

I forget what topic we were chatting and that baby posted for everyone to see he put me on ignore and ran away from any further discussions..
 
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PeteBull

Member
The fuck?!? Dude... I gave examples of games that are NOT the majority like you and some others act like they are ... And you go and show me a game that proves my point.
Catered means focused on that particular group, im pretty sure straight males loved gow3/remaster a lot. including that scene and overall feel of the game, show me something similar big budget western dev studio made recently (brutality+sex) and i take the L, otherwise u can pretend to get outraged :messenger_ok:
 

Lethal01

Member
Dont twist my words bro, i coulndt stomach TLOU part2 coz of wokeness, like many fans of the original, thats what i said, and its the truth.

In same post i named few great games with female protags i had no problem with.
Next time read to understand, not to respond or i will start to think u are one of those western male feminists - lowest of the low, since they are guys so can observe on their own example their whole life women and men arent the same and feminism is and allways was big fat lie :p

Down with the patriarchy bro. 🎉
Glad not to many games are forcing you to be female.
 
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PeteBull

Member
Not you. Deaftourette.

I forget what topic we were chatting and that baby posted for everyone to see he put me on ignore and ran away from any further discussions..
U accuse me of something i didnt do, so either ask mod to post here to prove ur statement or stop liyng.
U think 42yo male from eastern europe would need to ignore ppl on gaming forum coz he is too weak to handle few words? Come on ;)

Fun fact- i never put any1 on ignore ever, not in any game i played/ any forum nor in any possible scenario, it can be alien concept to weakminded ppl tho, i was pker in some small community mmorpgs so u cant even image wordsalads i got from ppl i "gentlly missclicked"(and took their loot) back in the days, pr0 tip- its actually funny to see ppl losing their mind over online stuff after u fk them over coz u know it actually hurt them on the double :)
Edit: ok now i saw whats up, sorry almost 2am here in Poland rofl, time 2sleep4me ;p
2nd edit- i think i got confused coz he put my username in his post, it got quoted/i got notification of it etc - again sorry for confusion, my bad here xD
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
U accuse me of something i didnt do, so either ask mod to post here to prove ur statement or stop liyng.
U think 42yo male from eastern europe would need to ignore ppl on gaming forum coz he is too weak to handle few words? Come on ;)

Fun fact- i never put any1 on ignore ever, not in any game i played/ any forum nor in any possible scenario, it can be alien concept to weakminded ppl tho, i was pker in some small community mmorpgs so u cant even image wordsalads i got from ppl i "gentlly missclicked"(and took their loot) back in the days, pr0 tip- its actually funny to see ppl losing their mind over online stuff after u fk them over coz u know it actually hurt them on the double :)
Edit: ok now i saw whats up, sorry almost 2am here in Poland rofl, time 2sleep4me ;p
2nd edit- i think i got confused coz he put my username in his post, it got quoted/i got notification of it etc - again sorry for confusion, my bad here xD
I never put anyone on ignore either. It's a forum after all and at the end of the day it's just good laughs to kill time.

But for anyone who doesn't know DF's posts from the OT section, he loves any thread having to do with racial stuff. Be warned.
 
She looks pretty clearly mixed. It's crazy to look at that woman and say she is definitely 100% caucasian.
Unless you mean she's an asian id
I know how mixed women look like and she's nothing like that...

But yeah, feel free to do historical revisionism if it makes your day.

ps: I was playing religiously Uncharted 2-3 during the PS3 era and not a single person ever mentioned she has Asian heritage.
 

NotMyProblemAnymoreCunt

Biggest Trails Stan
Catered means focused on that particular group, im pretty sure straight males loved gow3/remaster a lot. including that scene and overall feel of the game, show me something similar big budget western dev studio made recently (brutality+sex) and i take the L, otherwise u can pretend to get outraged :messenger_ok:

Wish these Western Game Developers would go back to that 👀
 
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Clintizzle

Lord of Edge.
I am all for inclusivity. I want all types of people to feel represented and enjoy playing games. What I'm not keen for is the takeover of established franchises to cater for a specific narrative.

Create new experiences. Create new stories. Don't change existing stories and character and call it natural evolution.
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
I know how mixed women look like and she's everything like that...

Exactly. A mixed woman can look more or less like either parent. Sometimes NOTHING LIKE either parent. Kristin Kreuk comes to mind. So does Hailey Steinfeld.

Edit: same with Rashida Jones
 
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shamoomoo

Member
I think you make the fallacious assumption that exclusion is intntionally done for a benefit at all. What people may interpret as "exclusion" is their own bias coming through. If someone is hired because they are qualified and highly competent it should not matter their skin color. So, if company A hires 50 highly qualified, competent people who all happen to be white it is just lunacy to expect them to fire ten of them only to hire someone of a different race or sexual orientation who may be borderline incompetent. If a company is hiring someone because of their race, LGBTQ status, etc. then the company and/or its product deserves to fail. I think that is largely what we are seeing here with games these days.
Depending on who is doing the exclusion,the person/group excluding others benefits from that. Now, there's a context where exclusion is necessary.


These are the biggest lies some of y'all bring up. That was the point behind the various anti-discrimantion laws in the first.
 

EDMIX

Writes a lot, says very little
Then that's not inclusion.

"Inclusion" implies a majority group making an intentional effort to include a minority group.

German game devs making german games featuring Germans isn't inclusion, as it's the same as white American devs making American games that feature mostly white americans. Do you see the point now?

When you use the term inclusion, you're exclusively referencing majority demographics including minority demographics.

So, on the wider point about regional devs making regional games, I'm glad we agree. But yeah, I guess I did mis understand your meaning when using the word inclusion, but only because you were misapplying the term.

I'm not saying the term means this, I'm pointing out why its important because the industry is global.

As in, a show that shows many different demographics in America, would make sense because the actors in those shows can capture an audiences in other countries, on top of how America is as a melting pot, having many different demographics shows culturally how the country is, this is also allows even Americans that might share this demographic to be connected to the story on a deeper level of they can understand the character, like if a show is about a second generation Korean in America, not only can people who share this understand the show on a deeper level, but the market in Korea can understand it as well, either knowing family members that did this or imagining if they did it themselves

So my point is not saying the term means this, its saying the concept of inclusion makes a lot of sense in American art forms cause we are a melting pot in the first place, but also that a global market that exist can also gravitate towards the show.

Look at the Walking Dead's Steven Yeun. So inclusion makes sense cause clearly this comic and show is based in America, which means it would not be odd to find any different demographics.

glenn-from-walking-dead-comics-and-show.jpg



lol, a random image of a crowd in America...

00SIDEWALKS1sub-videoSixteenByNineJumbo1600.jpg


Now, here is Steven in a Korean film I seen a few years back.

Screen-Shot-2018-10-12-at-12.54.48-PM-copy.png


Now consider, the show Walking Dead is about a zombie apocalypse in America, has inclusion as clearly, its happening in America. This demographic can understand his character a great deal if they live in America, BUT overseas the show can capture appeal as well, as clearly this has made him popular to the point of being in other films in Korea.
 
I'm not saying the term means this, I'm pointing out why its important because the industry is global.

As in, a show that shows many different demographics in America, would make sense because the actors in those shows can capture an audiences in other countries, on top of how America is as a melting pot, having many different demographics shows culturally how the country is, this is also allows even Americans that might share this demographic to be connected to the story on a deeper level of they can understand the character, like if a show is about a second generation Korean in America, not only can people who share this understand the show on a deeper level, but the market in Korea can understand it as well, either knowing family members that did this or imagining if they did it themselves

So my point is not saying the term means this, its saying the concept of inclusion makes a lot of sense in American art forms cause we are a melting pot in the first place, but also that a global market that exist can also gravitate towards the show.

Look at the Walking Dead's Steven Yeun. So inclusion makes sense cause clearly this comic and show is based in America, which means it would not be odd to find any different demographics.

glenn-from-walking-dead-comics-and-show.jpg



lol, a random image of a crowd in America...

00SIDEWALKS1sub-videoSixteenByNineJumbo1600.jpg


Now, here is Steven in a Korean film I seen a few years back.

Screen-Shot-2018-10-12-at-12.54.48-PM-copy.png


Now consider, the show Walking Dead is about a zombie apocalypse in America, has inclusion as clearly, its happening in America. This demographic can understand his character a great deal if they live in America, BUT overseas the show can capture appeal as well, as clearly this has made him popular to the point of being in other films in Korea.

Ok I understand what you mean now.

Sure, I agree that inclusion in the form of properly realised characters is something that I don't think anyone would object to or be upset about.

Would I still say it's important, however? I'm not sure I would, tbh.

Like as you say, America is a melting pot, but only really the more metropolitan parts of the country. There are parts of the country that are still 99% white, and there are parts of the country like Chicago where it's virtually majority black.

I think it's important that distinct settings are properly realized, in that a game set in Chicago shouldn't be mostly while people, nor should a game focus on the racial challenges of the Asian American community in the 1950s star a black protagonist.

Settings and the characters that make them up should represent their real-world counterparts. Sure. And some of the most interesting stories come from minority communities that are oft less represented (e.g. GTA San Andreas).

But I would say that in games not set in the real world, but an entirely fictional setting, is it important that multiple ethnic groups are represented in that fictional setting merely for the sake of pandering to real-world contemporary US politics? Abso-fucking-lutely not... and that's where I draw the line. Games like FFXVI or the Witcher should not be bring criticized for not including none-white ethnic groups in their settings. That's the kinda shit that takes "inclusion" way too far.
 
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Alebrije

Gold Member
No , in the sence is impossible to be 100% inclusive, these days inclusive is just about gender but what about autism or neurodivergent people in general or starving people around de world , 1% rich people vs homeless, etc


Game = fun

You play Games to have fun not to solve the human problems or differences, for that there are another places like sicience, goverments, academy.

Videogames have just a simple misión, give us fun, no more no less.
 

EDMIX

Writes a lot, says very little
, nor should a game focus on the racial challenges of the Asian American community in the 1950s star a black protagonist.
^ depends on what the work actually is lol You could have a story about this topic and the black person could be at odds with an Asian character and the point of the story could be that they are both facing injustice or something in a pre-civil rights era and they should be joining forces.

So as an artist, its why I normally reframe from absolutes.

It depends on what the story is about.
Settings and the characters that make them up should represent their real-world counterparts.
Even this is a big some times for me. I think it should if the concept of the story is to represent a reality like our own, BUT if its a concept where this is not relevant to the story, that is ok too.
is it important that multiple ethnic groups are represented in that fictional setting merely for the sake of pandering to real-world contemporary US politics? Abso-fucking-lutely not... and that's where I draw the line.

I agree, but we rarely if ever even have any actual evidence of any of this, merely claims. Its important to note here, if the setting is fictional, the creators decide who makes up that world, so who is to say something is "pandering" and not merely the artist interpretation of that world? So I agree it should not be done SOLELY for the sake of pandering like some activist ad or something, but I find theses claims that the sole reasons something exist is for that don't have much basis other then someone saying thats why it exist.

Like Lee is black in Walking Dead to pander
Mirror's Edge is made to pander
Like Cortana is blue to Pander, a female AND SHE IS BLUE? I wonder what color that is suppose to symbolize lol

When we can prove it was done "merely for the sake of pandering" then I feel we can have a solid point, but for the most part, I don't see much actual evidence for a lot of those claims. What the character is suppose to look like is up to the artist and this is rarely an objective thing where someone can point to it and be like "this is wrong and should be" this or that etc

Games like FFXVI or the Witcher should not be bring criticized for not including none-white ethnic groups in their settings
I agree, its their fiction, their setting and they can choose what goes into their games and shouldn't be criticized for such things, but understand I feel that about all works, let the developer create. They do not need to explain to anyone why they made FFXVI or Witcher the way they did, but neither does any developer that wishes to have inclusion in their works.... (keep in mind, the only issue I had with FFXVI's developers was the claim it was based on the medieval time frame, this time was not exclusively white btw so I'm not sure where he got any of that form or what they were talking about lol)

I don't even get how when this is done to other developers, they should not be criticized, but when someone feels they've included something to pander, suddenly an inquisition is compeltely fine lol

How about this, developers should be allowed to create how they feel just regardless if its not including or including any demographic. It is their work and interpretation, not really an census or a claim about the majority of any one place.
 
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How about this, developers should be allowed to create how they feel just regardless if its not including or including any demographic. It is their work and interpretation, not really an census or a claim about the majority of any one place.
Good. And Consumers have a right to judge the quality of their outputs and vote with their wallets accordingly. And when low quality games fail as they should, developers should stop demanding that we buy their game to prove our moral purity.

Game devs are free to make games. But Consumers are free to NOT buy them. And if the games end up sucking that is on the Devs being bad devs, stop blaming consumers for not being mindless drones who buys garbage.
 

EDMIX

Writes a lot, says very little
Good. And Consumers have a right to judge the quality of their outputs and vote with their wallets accordingly
. But Consumers are free to NOT buy them.
stop blaming consumers for not being mindless drones

lol thats wild, where the fuck am I saying otherwise? How did you come to this conclusion from anything being stated above? lol

Look man, a lot of your post either fail to read or fail to understand the point being made or literally inventing entire points no one is actually stating, to the point of some of us re-reading other people's post to figure out how the fuck you are coming up with any of those responses

Listen...its time to just place you in that ignore shadow realm bud.

stop-it-get-some-help.gif
 

manfestival

Member
Inclusiveness doesn't really matter to me. The only time I really saw a puerto rican character in any major media that I can think of is Miles Morales but nobody ACTUALLY cares about that. They somewhat mention that but they made him mixed so both aspects can be used whenever something is convenient. I pretty find 0 relatability to any real characters based on any immutable characteristics for the most part. None of that has ever mattered to me in gaming. Funny enough, maybe a character sharing the same name(I have a latin name) has always been something I find amusing and enjoy way more despite them being pretty much mexican 95% of the time.

Just rather play some aweseome character in a game and have that experience. Most recently, I LOVED the time I had playing as Titus in Space Marine 2. Felt so awesome and wish more games had that experience these days.
 

EDMIX

Writes a lot, says very little
They somewhat mention that but they made him mixed so both aspects can be used whenever something is convenient.
True, but to be fair, this is how he is in the comics and this is not uncommon in New York or Puerto Rico (or really anyway in the United States tbh)

semi OT, I'd love a Far Cry in Puerto Rico!
 
lol thats wild, where the fuck am I saying otherwise? How did you come to this conclusion from anything being stated above? lol

Look man, a lot of your post either fail to read or fail to understand the point being made or literally inventing entire points no one is actually stating, to the point of some of us re-reading other people's post to figure out how the fuck you are coming up with any of those responses

Listen...its time to just place you in that ignore shadow realm bud.

stop-it-get-some-help.gif
You want to talk about morality of not buying the product. You want to say that because the product has political messaging of some kind that if i don't buy it it means I am against it.
I am simply ignoring your argument that was entirely false. No one buy game for its politics. You might as well ask if we care if there are more Redheads in game characters.

On the other hand, if there WAS a real push to insert more redheads into video games, and there was also an obvious decline in quality of these games compared to those that didn't try to control hair color, then we can make the conclusion that Red Heads = bad games, thus we stop buying games that had Redheads in them.

So yes, I am ignoring what you are asking because what you are asking is stupid. I am instead saying there is a real link between DEI and games sucking, and THAT is the real crux of the issue that turn people away.

Look, there was a REAL push at some point to boycott BlackMyth Wukong because of anti-China sentiment that was justified and real. And BlackMyth Wukong even has Denuvo, another source of hate. And yet neither stopped the game from being a success because it is a GOOD GAME.

Make a good game and people would pay for it. Inclusivity is just excuses one way or another.
 
^ depends on what the work actually is lol You could have a story about this topic and the black person could be at odds with an Asian character and the point of the story could be that they are both facing injustice or something in a pre-civil rights era and they should be joining forces.

Right, but then that's not a story about the challenges of the Asian American community in the 1950s. It's something else.

Is it worthwhile? It could be. Depends on how well the final product is realized.

I agree, but we rarely if ever even have any actual evidence of any of this, merely claims. Its important to note here, if the setting is fictional, the creators decide who makes up that world, so who is to say something is "pandering" and not merely the artist interpretation of that world? So I agree it should not be done SOLELY for the sake of pandering like some activist ad or something, but I find theses claims that the sole reasons something exist is for that don't have much basis other then someone saying thats why it exist.

Like Lee is black in Walking Dead to pander
Mirror's Edge is made to pander
Like Cortana is blue to Pander, a female AND SHE IS BLUE? I wonder what color that is suppose to symbolize lol

When we can prove it was done "merely for the sake of pandering" then I feel we can have a solid point, but for the most part, I don't see much actual evidence for a lot of those claims. What the character is suppose to look like is up to the artist and this is rarely an objective thing where someone can point to it and be like "this is wrong and should be" this or that etc

That's not really what I'm talking about. Very rarely do people complain about the inclusion of racial minorities in fictional worlds. Rather the shitty myopic media constantly shits on games for not including enough inclusion. That's my problem.

I agree, its their fiction, their setting and they can choose what goes into their games and shouldn't be criticized for such things, but understand I feel that about all works, let the developer create. They do not need to explain to anyone why they made FFXVI or Witcher the way they did, but neither does any developer that wishes to have inclusion in their works.... (keep in mind, the only issue I had with FFXVI's developers was the claim it was based on the medieval time frame, this time was not exclusively white btw so I'm not sure where he got any of that form or what they were talking about lol)

I don't even get how when this is done to other developers, they should not be criticized, but when someone feels they've included something to pander, suddenly an inquisition is compeltely fine lol

Pandering is a very specific thing. You claim there's rarely any evidence of it when it does occur. I disagree.

When you have a story which is not supposed to be focused on some banal example of far left identity politics, where the writing is utterly shite, and the "included" minority characters are given no development whatsoever, but are merely there to be tokenizen platforms for pushing some obvious political messaging... then it's clearly pandering.

E.g. most of the side quest stuff in Spider-Man 2, especially the Miles Morales missions regarding the music centre, his deaf GF and stupid gay student proposal thing. None of that was interesting, well-written, engaging, nor even fit with the theme of a game about an alien existential threat to the world called Venom. It was evidently put there to pander to certain communities and for no other reason. It's undeniable.

On the other hand, the inclusion of the gay romance plotline between Elle and her friend in TLOU2 wasn't pandering at all. It was smartly told, central to the main game story and an important part of both character's development.

So, to me, it's blatantly obvious when a game is pandering or not. Especially given the fact that games have included minority representation for decades, but only since wokeism became a thing and took over the entertainment media hubs of California since 2014 did we start to see this trite, vapid pandering shit start appearing in games.

How about this, developers should be allowed to create how they feel just regardless if its not including or including any demographic. It is their work and interpretation, not really an census or a claim about the majority of any one place.

Devs can and do make what they want to make. That's not what this discussion topic is about, though.

The OP's question was to us as gamers, and he asked is "inclusion" important. I insist that it's not, universally, and for all the reasons I've stated.

I don't condemn inclusion in all its myriad forms. I only categorically reject the propagandizing, pandering form that has appeared in games, TV, movies and comics since 2014.
 

EDMIX

Writes a lot, says very little
. Very rarely do people complain about the inclusion of racial minorities in fictional worlds
On the other hand, the inclusion of the gay romance plotline between Elle and her friend in TLOU2 wasn't pandering at all. It was smartly told,
People complain about anything, even what you are saying about The Last Of Us 2, I agree with you on this btw, but that doesn't mean someone will not make the same claim about that game with pandering

You might not see it that way and neither do I, BUT the claim of other games having some message to pander can be claimed about The Last Of Us 2 as the lack of evidence of anything this means lots of what you are saying about those other titles, one can just apply to the Last Of Us 2 and say " Elle had gay sex with her girl friend, None of that was interesting, well-written, engaging, nor even fit with the theme of a game about a zombie outbreak from spores" lol

So in Spiderman defense, none of it needs to be interesting to every player to suddenly be NOT Pandering or something weird like this, as this isn't evidence of anything other then thinking the story wasn't good, but if someone wants to see that as a message of some sort, whats stopping them from seeing anything in The Last Of Us 2 as some message?


If its really overt, like a whole ass speech is made about it many times or in the end or something, then maybe i can see that, but with how loose this term is thrown around, I no longer care what folks claim is or isn't "woke" , folks will call anything that now days with the same reasoning you gave to Spiderman 2.
I don't condemn inclusion in all its myriad forms. I only categorically reject the propagandizing, pandering form that has appeared in games, TV, movies and comics since 2014.
I don't disagree.

If its done for this purpose and only for this purpose, it questions the work itself, art has been used in activism for eons, if it will be about brining attention to a cause or a people, I have nothing against it, so long as its known that is the point of the work itself.
 
I'm Asian American and not once has it's ever crossed my mind when I see a character and be like, "why don't they look like me?" I've spent most of my life hanging with other friends outside of my race (I hardly have any Asian friends ironically enough) so it's a non-issue to me.
 
I actually don't care if the main character is black, a woman, or any other shite. All of this stuff has existed in games, movies, and tv shows for years. What I do have a problem with, is taking an already established franchise and using it to push your bullshit. If you want to push shit, just make a new product. Don't shoehorn it all into something and change it for the worse. It's like if the next Elder Scrolls turned out to be "the gayest Elder Scrolls yet!" with a fortnite colour palette and art style. Then you just know this shit has been infiltrated.
 
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