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[Robin64]

The Yoshi's Island one especially. It's so authentic, I'll give you that. It looks superb if you are going for how it looked when you were a kid. But otherwise, it's pretty much a mess. I think looks much better:

(Taken from the RETROARCH thread)

 

[HDgaming42]

So I imagine, because of the custom SF and the "official" mod which connects the Super Famicom directly to the TV's board, the SF1 beats an RGB mod.

Oh good--you've compared them both with your own eyes and arrived at this conclusion?

I don't have an RGB-modded SNES/SF so I can't compare the two directly--

Wait a second...

if we're talking about SNES and only SNES games at their very best, then the SF1 is the definitive answer.

The definitive answer. Based entirely on assumptions it seems.

To begin with - the cables you mentioned suffer from being unable to send an uncompressed image to the display. The image from the SF1 is uncompressed. It's quite spectacular.

You've gone off the deep end.

Perhaps you just don't know enough about it yet. When you get a chance to see one in-person, you'll understand why no other solution compares.

Except that it doesn't appear you have seen what people are comparing it to--RGB to a better CRT.

Allow me to explain why the SF1 is leagues beyond a SNES modded for RGB output.

Oh, please do.

Getting the clarity right is step 1. The RGB mods get that step right, or as close as they can to Sharp/Nintendo's efforts.

But it goes far beyond that. The next step involves colour calibration, for instance. Black levels. Hues and saturation.

You just don't reach that level with a SNES (RGB or not) and any other CRT.

Are you trying to sell your unit at the moment? What is with all this baseless god-tier cheer-leading?

The very notion of championing the calibration of a consumer CRT to that of a broadcast monitor is so laughable...I honestly don't know where to begin.

Not sure how a rgb scart cable could 'compress' a images quality, seeing as it's an analog connection, compression only usually occurs with digital connection types, fair enough you could introduce interference with certain type of analog connections (such as a scart cable) but compression no.

Just to clarify a point--"compression" is indeed possible with analog signals. It is the basis of Component Video.

The sf1 itself is a standard, middle of road television with an SFC built in. It is by no means an excellent, or even good monitor. I would gladly take a broadcast monitor over it any day.

Also a cable hooked up via rgb is transferring the exact same information as the sf1. There are no artefacts from using a cable.

Finally, some sanity.

Perhaps you should have a look inside of one before making assumptions.

I suggest you try one out yourself, as the SF1 really is in a league of its own.

And perhaps you should entertain the idea that the SF1 isn't actually all that special. I agree, people shouldn't jump to conclusions. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it doesn't seem like you have directly compared an RGB SNES to a broadcast monitor. If you haven't, then you are in the same boat as the people who have seen that, but not your SF1.

The only discussion to be had is on potential capabilities at this point, and I'm sorry--Nintendo most likely did not design some uber secret sauce for that unit. A broadcast monitor will stomp that CRT every day of the week. RGB is lossless, so unless you have a complete shit cable, you are not losing anything.

There is no way this showdown ends the way you think it does. I'm sorry.

And OP--just buy it. Deal with it if you don't like what you see. Or don't and resell it--SNES prices are nuts right now and you'll make your money back.

 

[KojiKnight]

Opinions, how do they work?

A person can like eating a pile of dog poo, that doesn't mean their personal approval of the taste should have any sway in a conversation I have with them on what to have for lunch.

The Yoshi's Island one in particular is horrifying since it emulates the color bleed that most people are recommending OP how to get rid of.

 

[Lettuce]

PALis are used to the stretched look anyway,
because most unoptimized games (read: almost all of them)
ran at an ascpect ratio of about 1,6:1

most of my youth I used a PC monitor for TV and gaming, so I could control the geomitry anyway

Well PAL games actually have a squished look not stretched. Its down to PAL 50hz CRT having 576 lines of pixels that make up the height of the screen and NTSC 60HZ CRT TV's having only 480 lines of pixels. So the lazy programs just ported the game over to PAL TV and as there was more lines of pixels on our PAL TVs those extra lines were just used to made up the borders and the top and bottom of the screen. On the plus side our PAL games had better resolution, but thats a mote point when Ken and Ryu looked like they had been pigging out on Buggers and Hotdogs!

These don't look nearly as good as you two think they do... Intentionally mimicking the shitty parts of CRT/NTSC standard does not make the games look better.

Ummm not really the limitations of CRT displays more so the actual console itself. They were after all 240p/i resolution based consoles so to make the actual game fill the screen they had to fill the picture up with 'blanking' lines to give a 480p display which gives us the side effect of scanlines, which is a historical part of retro gaming that alot of retro gamers like to see

 

[Lettuce]

DP

 

[HDgaming42]

Ummm not really the limitations of CRT displays more so the actual console itself. They were after all 240p/i resolution based consoles so to make the actual game fill the screen they had to fill the picture up with 'blanking' lines to give a 480p display which gives us the side effect of scanlines, which is a historical part of retro gaming that alot of retro gamers like to see

Isn't their objection the colour bleed? Scanlines are good IMHO. Colour bleed is a mess and unnecessary.

 

[KojiKnight]

Ummm not really the limitations of CRT displays more so the actual console itself. They were after all 240p/i resolution based consoles so to make the actual game fill the screen they had to fill the picture up with 'blanking' lines to give a 480p display which gives us the side effect of scanlines, which is a historical part of retro gaming that alot of retro gamers like to see

I wasn't talking about scanlines. Your image wasn't as bad as the other, but it does have the intentionally warped screen which is a negative that does not need to be "simulated".

What I was mostly talking about was the Yoshi's Island image I also quoted which mimics the NTSC/composite color bleed (look especially around the title where you can see the colors bleeding badly into the whites).

I grew up with an NES and a SNES on CRTs using composite. I know how they looked on my cheap TV, I don't want to simulate a cheap TV playing those games on my shiny big TV. When I do emulate older games, I do use very light scan lines (playing FF8 on steam the last week and using a custom shader that adds them into the game).

 

[Lettuce]

Isn't their objection the colour bleed? Scanlines are good IMHO. Colour bleed is a mess and unnecessary.

Oh could be maybe but colour bleed can be sorted by calibrating the guns on the tube....granted that it way past mosts ability or comfort zone to be fair, but yeah defo an area where digital displays are better

I wasn't talking about scanlines. Your image wasn't as bad as the other, but it does have the intentionally warped screen which is a negative that does not need to be "simulated".

Ah ok, guess its just a matter of taste, but CRT screen were curved so it just simulating that aspect i guess. There is a shader that has the CRT curve greatly reduced, i post a pic i a bit....

 

[Betta Lines]

A person can like eating a pile of dog poo, that doesn't mean their personal approval of the taste should have any sway in a conversation I have with them on what to have for lunch.

The Yoshi's Island one in particular is horrifying since it emulates the color bleed that most people are recommending OP how to get rid of.

I understand, but your sentence read very much like fact.

When it comes to retro visuals, there is plenty of room for varied opinions as nostalgia plays a big part.

 

[Lettuce]

 

[Quaz51]

or http://youtu.be/H6d3fUHZfOo

 

[Carl]

I have my NES hooked up to my 42" HDTV and it looks fine, completely playable and nothing wrong with it

 

[Professor Renegade]

Go to a thrift store and pick up a cheap crt

 

[KojiKnight]

I have my NES hooked up to my 42" HDTV and it looks fine, completely playable and nothing wrong with it

With what? Cause I recently restored my NES and the composite output is bad... like I can't make out the details in the mega man stage selects bad (I'll try and get a picture later). I can play it for sure, but it lacks a lot of clarity.

 

[Rich!]

sup guys

here's some shots of my RGB modded SNES mini, on my 42" HDTV via an XRGB Mini.

and some with the XRGB scanlines:

That's all running off real SNES hardware on a modern 1080p TV. So yes, OP - it is a very good idea to play SNES on an HDTV.

 

[Rich!]

To begin with - the cables you mentioned suffer from being unable to send an uncompressed image to the display. The image from the SF1 is uncompressed. It's quite spectacular.

The SF1 uses standard SFC video chips, so there is nothing stopping you from soldering the SNES Mini video chip onto the SF1 board (assuming it uses the older chip), if you'd like to do such a thing.

And to counter your point - this was not simply a licensing deal. The SF1 is comparable to the Panasonic Q or the Famicom Station. It is a collaborative effort, with custom parts provided by Nintendo to Sharp. Both parties were clearly heavily involved in the development of this system, as is evidenced the moment you look inside an SF1.

I am not sure why a connesseur of SNES games such as yourself would write off the SF1 as quickly as you have. Perhaps you just don't know enough about it yet. When you get a chance to see one in-person, you'll understand why no other solution compares. Unfortunately, because of the scarcity of this product, it's quite a rare occasion to be able to enjoy such an occasion.

Allow me to explain why the SF1 is leagues beyond a SNES modded for RGB output.

Getting the clarity right is step 1. The RGB mods get that step right, or as close as they can to Sharp/Nintendo's efforts.

But it goes far beyond that. The next step involves colour calibration, for instance. Black levels. Hues and saturation. There is more to "perfection" than clarity alone, and you will understand this once you have tried an SF1 for yourself.

The SF1 is an RGB-modded SNES hooked up to a custom-built display that Nintendo and Sharp have fine tuned for colour balance themselves.

You just don't reach that level with a SNES (RGB or not) and any other CRT.

This is all conjecture. You cannot just swap one PPU for another from two different boards dude, for obvious technical reasons I'm not going to explain here. The SF1's hardware contains the original 1990-1993 V1/2 PPU which is far inferior to the V3 1-CHIP in the later models and the SNES Mini.

I don't know why you keep bringing up RGB modding either - every SNES model apart from the mini outputs RGB natively out the box using a SCART cable, and Nintendo released cables for that purpose both here in the UK and in Japan. You mention the SF1 is "an RGB-modded SNES hooked up to a custom-built display that Nintendo and Sharp have fine tuned for colour balance themselves". Well, that's bullshit because the SFC outputs RGB natively regardless, and the image is not as fine-tuned on the display as you believe it to be.

The SNES Mini outputs a better image when modded for RGB than any other SNES, including the SF1 which is based on the original PPU, not the 1-CHIP released in later SNES models and the Mini. The image from the SF1's SNES hardware is not the best, and to say so is literally wrong. Sorry.

 

[mothball]

I hope you're at least using this with a LightBoost monitor, otherwise it's like watching a 120 FPS video on a 60 Hz monitor.

People forget that the scanlines are only one part of a CRT's quality. I myself had forgotten how ridiculously well they handle motion until I got my PVM a few weeks ago and saw Sonic on it.

 

[Khaz]

I hope you're at least using this with a LightBoost monitor, otherwise it's like watching a 120 FPS video on a 60 Hz monitor.

People forget that the scanlines are only one part of a CRT's quality. I myself had forgotten how ridiculously well they handle motion until I got my PVM a few weeks ago and saw Sonic on it.

That's a very good point and I'm guilty of forgetting it too. I play a bit with emulators on my laptop when deciding which game to add to my collection and I always noticed how choppy the game sometime is, especially when there is scrolling. It could be because or ghosting or something else, but there is no dip in framerate so it's not due to the emulation itself. I never really cared for it, assuming it was normal / nostalgia goggles, and just a minor annoyance until I got my CRT back. I used a Master system and some games can be ugly as shit but wow the picture quality itself is so impressive, in stills and in action. So smooth.

 

[Bill Rizer]

sup guys

here's some shots of my RGB modded SNES mini, on my 42" HDTV via an XRGB Mini.


and some with the XRGB scanlines:

That's all running off real SNES hardware on a modern 1080p TV. So yes, OP - it is a very good idea to play SNES on an HDTV.

This is GLORIOUS

 

[Conor_Fool]

Very surprised at the replies in this thread. I have only ever really used my SNES with my HDTV and never noticed anything for real. No noticeable lag and the graphics look like what you would expect from a 16-bit game

 

[lensoftruth]

Very surprised at the replies in this thread. I have only ever really used my SNES with my HDTV and never noticed anything for real. No noticeable lag and the graphics look like what you would expect from a 16-bit game

Lots of people have crap TVs without even realising it. A badly scaled LDTV image can look horrible.

 

[Khaz]

Very surprised at the replies in this thread. I have only ever really used my SNES with my HDTV and never noticed anything for real. No noticeable lag and the graphics look like what you would expect from a 16-bit game

What exactly are you expecting from a 16-bit game? There is a difference between the technological limitations of the original hardware (colour limit, low resolution) and the rendering of these limitations. We are talking about the latter. You would expect that technology evolving, just like it allows us to emulate perfectly the oldest computers, would also allow us to recreate their rendering. Sadly this is not the case*. Flat-screen technology is worse than CRT in all the relevant points (colour density and depth, sharpness, movement smoothness, resolution scaling, etc) and only wins in weight, bulk and, well, flatness. Had the industry allowed the evolution towards HD-CRT, the LCD technology would have been wiped out a long time ago.

* Unless you pay a massive amount of money on top of your already expensive HDTV in order to acquire a proper upscaler. And again even though results with those look quite nice, they are note quite the same as the original deal. Maybe the move towards 4K may allow for phosphore emulation, which would solve the scanline and phosphore size problems we have now. Maybe 120Hz can help with smoothness and I hope technology will further reduce ghosting and improve blacks depth. However I doubt we will ever solve the input lag problem, which is non-existent on a CRT.

 

[BubbaMc]

Looks so complicated. ):

Not at all.

SNES to XRGB via SCART cable, XRGB to HDTV via HDMI cable.

 

[Lettuce]

That's a very good point and I'm guilty of forgetting it too. I play a bit with emulators on my laptop when deciding which game to add to my collection and I always noticed how choppy the game sometime is, especially when there is scrolling. It could be because or ghosting or something else, but there is no dip in framerate so it's not due to the emulation itself. I never really cared for it, assuming it was normal / nostalgia goggles, and just a minor annoyance until I got my CRT back. I used a Master system and some games can be ugly as shit but wow the picture quality itself is so impressive, in stills and in action. So smooth.

I hope you're at least using this with a LightBoost monitor, otherwise it's like watching a 120 FPS video on a 60 Hz monitor.

People forget that the scanlines are only one part of a CRT's quality. I myself had forgotten how ridiculously well they handle motion until I got my PVM a few weeks ago and saw Sonic on it.

Dunno I guess I always must have had decent LCD displays as I have never notice this effect and I also have a massive 28" Hantarex CRT wall monitor and don't notice a difference in scrolling/smoothness between the 2 really