Support NeoGAF

[PaintTinJr]

It's the worst 3D mario by some way.

Ask anyone who ranks it highly if they played it at or near release and they'll almost certainly say yes. Rose tinted goggles aside, it's not a particularly good game at all.

Of those that I know that don't like it, it is a difficulty issue and they aren't skilled enough gamers. The camera was always their issue because they couldn't counter control the camera at the same time as the control stick for the adanced traversal with Fluud.

Most Mario games start easy and only get really difficult for completionists, but still allow the game to be completed by joe average, whereas Sunshine incorporates levels that border on that level of difficulty within the main story objectives. Some of the levels requiring the most skill also require more than reaction platforming skills and required planed strategy to tackle along with the reaction platform skills prerequisite, which I suspect tints the game far more for those that disliked it.

 

[apple_of_enlightenment]

There are no bad mainline Mario games

 

[SeasonedInTheAbyss]

It is a underrated game. But beating all the levels over time triggered dopamine receptors and I wish you guys beat it too.it was basically mario 128. And finishing it was very rewarding

 

[RayHell]

No, Odyssey's probably the worst. As a general rule of thumb, the 3D Mario games have gotten worse over time (with maybe the exception of 3D Land; I haven't played 3D World).

For a while I thought it might have been me not liking Mario or something, but last year's Mario Wonder is really good. Definitely not me changing tastes and not liking 3D platformers anymore either as A Hat in Time is spectacular and came out the same year as Odyssey. Nintendo just haven't been shooting for the stars (ironically, given you literally shoot through stars in Galaxy).

 

[EviLore]

Yes, by far

 

[Švejk]

IMO, it was fine for the time.. It was still more memorable and fun than 3D World.

Devil's advocate, I think it's still better than Odyssey too. Odyssey wasn't bad at all, but it was SEVERELY over hyped by Switch-flation. Most boring boss battles I've every encountered in a 3D Mario game.

Edit: Galaxy 1 & 2 were peak 3D Mario... Astrobot has dominated the 3D platforming crown now. Everything else is piss.

 

[EwwLink]

Yes it is

 

[SpiceRacz]

If 3D Land is included in this conversation, that would be my answer. The levels, and game as a whole, are shockingly short. There's not much meat on the bone, so to speak. It's terrific, but I'd rather play any of the other games over it.

 

[Happosai]

It was disappointing. GC was the first Nintendo console to launch with a Luigi game (Luigi's Mansion) which was great. I remember Sunshine promos and was not sure if this wss it or not. Someone mentioned it feeling unfinished and it most certainly does.

 

[Ozzie666]

Short answer yes at least compared to other Mario games, it's still a qaulity fun title.
We got Luigi Mansion franchise as a launch title, which gaves us god's gift of a game in Luigi's Mansion 3.
It all worked out.

 

[Kabelly]

I absolutely love the voice acting in Sunshine. I wish Nintendo kept it going. When I picture what Mario and gang would actually sound like that's what I picture.

 

[Robb]

Most boring boss battles I've every encountered in a 3D Mario game.

Really? I thought there were some real highlights in there. The dragon was great imo. I also really loved the Mayan-themed one where you had to actually possess the hands and use them against him. The one that used the bird power-up/possession was also great imo. I think the ones I liked the least were the ones with those bunnies.

I should re-play Odyssey now that I think about it, it’s such a fun game.

 

[Neff]

It's the worst 3D game, but it still has a unique charm about it, and it's fun.

The worst mainline Mario would be NSMB on the DS.

 

[Shut0wen]

I enjoyed them all, would definitely say sunshine out of all the 3d games has its biggest problems though fighting the giant manta ray in one of the ghost hotels was and still is a stand out boss fight for me, will always remember it

 

[calistan]

The pinball level. Never forget.

 

[Punished Miku]

I feel like most people complaining about Sunshine thought it was too difficult.

 

[NeptuneCL]

Hell no, it's one of my favs.

The atmosphere is superb and the gameplay is pretty good. The difficult is also very good.

At least I, I love it.

 

[Robb]

The pinball level. Never forget.

Considering Nintendo has an employee retention rate of 98.8%, the person(s) who designed that nightmare is likely still present at the company. Hopefully imprisoned in the dungeons deep below the Nintendo headquarters.

 

[EruditeHobo]

I can't believe how much the Galaxy games are disliked here. They are 3D Mario in its purest form imo.

This... doesn't make sense.

Like or love the Galaxy games all you want, they are both by definition and by design "3D Mario, but with a gimmick". Mario 64 is obviously 3D Mario in its "purest form".

As for Sunshine, I liked it at the time, it certainly is not without issues but I personally much prefer it to 3D World which feels incredibly lazy, and Odyssey which utterly bores me.

I don't count anything handheld as "mainline" Mario, so I've never played 3D land and likely never will.

 

[calistan]

I can't believe how much the Galaxy games are disliked here. They are 3D Mario in its purest form imo.

The main thing I didn't like about them is that Mario is very frequently obscured by scenery and just shows up as a shadow. I mean, WTF is that?

In Mario 64 they brought all that 2D Mario feel to 3D and designed a camera system that the user had to control in part. You never really lost sight of the character, and if you weren't too comfortable with judging distances in 3D you could fix the camera in a side-on 2D position.

Sunshine was like admitting they couldn't actually design more complex levels with a fully automated camera, so you got a shadow Mario visible whenever he got lost behind scenery.

Galaxy, that was basically all the time. 100% automated camera, and when scenery gets in the way, fuck it, just show a shadow. I mean, in two generations they went from pioneering 3D gameplay to, well, we can't actually solve the camera problem or design 3D levels where characters don't get obscured by scenery.

 

[Griffon]

I was gonna say yes Sunshine is the worst but then people on this thread reminded me that 3d World exists, and this one is much much worse.

In a vacuum Sunshine is alright, it's still a good game on its own.

 

[LRKD]

The biggest problem for me, is that there aren't enough of the floodless stages. Despite that major flaw, it's my favorite 3D Mario.

From what i've seen of people who don't like Sunshine, is an autistic hatred for like 3 or 4 of the option stages, and blue coins, that are also optional. I can only assume they got their opinion from a youtuber, and likely never played, or at least never even gave it a chance. Or for people who do play I often see a pattern where they get flittered incredibly hard on the floodless stages. Makes me wonder if Mario fans are actually fans of 3D platformers, or if they've just been babied by Nintendo too long.

 

[F0rneus]

WTF is some of y'all smoking lol. 3D World is a masterpiece and might be my favorite 3D Mario game. Hell everybody loves 3D World, some people are doing some good drugs in here! Sunshine is a travesty in general. Bad concept, bad execution and just an unfun mess in general.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

I hated hated the water pack. Always will.

 

[VeganElduderino]

It's not a bad game, but it just feels like it could and should have been so much more. There's not as many levels as Super Mario 64. Level design is a bit of a step back from Super Mario 64. The blue coins are pure padding. The voice acting feels cheap. That final boss was a joke.

I like it, but it feels so lackluster compared to other Mario games. At least Lost Levels is pretty straightforward about what it tries to be, and does feel rewarding when you beat it.

Odyssey is , In my book!
Sunshine is very memorable, Odyssey is really not!

 

[F0rneus]

Odyssey is , In my book!
Sunshine is very memorable, Odyssey is really not!

I disagree. Odyssey has tons of imagination and wonder which is something that Sunshine severely lacks. Hell 3D Land isn't exactly a masterpiece but for a handheld, bite sized focus Mario game it sure knew how to work with it's parts. Sunshine is the Secret Invasion of Mario. It just sucks.

 

[VeganElduderino]

I disagree. Odyssey has tons of imagination and wonder which is something that Sunshine severely lacks. Hell 3D Land isn't exactly a masterpiece but for a handheld, bite sized focus Mario game it sure knew how to work with it's parts. Sunshine is the Secret Invasion of Mario. It just sucks.

I still sing sunshine's music to this day
I don't remember anything catchy from Odyssey! Odyssey as a few cool levels like the 2d mario stuff! Mario in new york was weird!
I liked it , it's the worse for me!

 

[Deerock71]

It'll be one of those New! Super Mario Bros. before Wonder came out. Those seemed pretty cut and paste.

 

[MLSabre]

Curse these coins. I haven't started a replay of Sunshine in years largely because of these accursed abomination. What were Nintendo thinking by rushing this game into production?!

 

[Red Crayon Aristocrat]

Personally I love it, it's really special to me for 2 reasons...

1 the tropical atmosphere is lovely, the game really makes you feel like you're on vacation, it's also special because none of the other Mario games quite are like this.

2 it was the only Mario game I got play as a kid as it was brand new, every other one was coming in years after the fact.

It's the same reason with Wind Waker and all the GameCube games, their "mine", the first ones I got to play as they were new, so you can debate over them as they compare to other entries in the respective series, but they're special to me for that reason.

 

[West Texas CEO]

I would say Super Mario 2 because it's not a real Mario game.

Putonahappyface , give me that trigger reaction.

 

[nkarafo]

From the 3D games, 3D Land/World are the worst for me. They are basically isometric platform games, not free roam 3D. No camera control, no exploration, nothing. The boxy level design is also boring.

From the 2D games, dunno. One of the NSMB games, they are all too generic to separate.

 

[CS Lurker]

It's not just a bad Mario game. It's simply a bad game overall. The nice water is the only thing worth

 

[NikuNashi]

Top 2 are a tie between Galaxy and Galaxy 2. Third is Mario 64.

This.

Odyssey
Sunshine

Are the worst 3D mainline Mario games.

 

[Trab-Pu-Kcip]

I agree with the OT but IMHO Odyssey is worse. Such a boring game

 

[gaming_again]

This... doesn't make sense.

Like or love the Galaxy games all you want, they are both by definition and by design "3D Mario, but with a gimmick". Mario 64 is obviously 3D Mario in its "purest form".

As for Sunshine, I liked it at the time, it certainly is not without issues but I personally much prefer it to 3D World which feels incredibly lazy, and Odyssey which utterly bores me.

I don't count anything handheld as "mainline" Mario, so I've never played 3D land and likely never will.

It makes sense to me in that it's 2D platfotmer action and mechanics in a 3D environment. The other games could be action adventures. Nintendo solved a twenty year problem with Galaxy.

 

[AV]

Of those that I know that don't like it, it is a difficulty issue and they aren't skilled enough gamers. The camera was always their issue because they couldn't counter control the camera at the same time as the control stick for the adanced traversal with Fluud.

Most Mario games start easy and only get really difficult for completionists, but still allow the game to be completed by joe average, whereas Sunshine incorporates levels that border on that level of difficulty within the main story objectives. Some of the levels requiring the most skill also require more than reaction platforming skills and required planed strategy to tackle along with the reaction platform skills prerequisite, which I suspect tints the game far more for those that disliked it.

The only harder parts I remember are the bits where they take Fludd away, honestly. Apart from that 64 is probably a more difficult game overall if I had to guess, but I've also played 64 a lot so my view on that is skewed. One day I'll replay all of the others...

 

[Lokaum D+]

Its better then Odyssey, at least sunshine had some difficult stars to get.

 

[Putonahappyface]

I would say Super Mario 2 because it's not a real Mario game.

Putonahappyface , give me that trigger reaction.

That's the constipation reaction.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

I haven't play Sunshine in years, and I remember liking it, but I completely agree with you, the best levels were when your water pack was stolen.

Which is a bit like saying that the QTEs are the best parts of Resident Evil 4.*

*now somebody is definitely going to say that they are

I feel like most people complaining about Sunshine thought it was too difficult.

It’s not difficult, it’s clunky as hell.

Getting to grips with Mario 64’s controls was hard because it was one of the first of its kind. I guess I’d be fuming at SM64’s slippery surfaces and insta-death quicksands and all that stuff if I never played it in the 90s. It would all seem so random and ”artificial difficulty”. But I could forgive it in a pioneering game from 1996. Sunshine came out 6 years later and it’s unreasonably clunky in comparison.
The camera alone serves the gameplay much worse than SM64’s rudimentary camera ever did, and a lot of movements just feel heavier than they should be, like when riding a manta ray or trying to maneuver that shitty boat in the volcano.
The physics are buggy and unpredictable; even if we don’t want to mention the horror that is the pachinko, Gelato Beach has plenty of instances where your success feels more due to luck than skill.
The camera is plain horrible in many instances, the most egregious one being the underwater boss fight, a visual mess worthy of some badly designed games of today.

Anyway, it’s the level design that takes several steps back from SM64.
Most missions alter a level’s design completely, making them a straightforward A to B trip with custom, fixed rules and no room for exploration.
The hotel is just a disaster from start to finish. The casino boss level is horrible game design through and through. I wouldn’t want that in a Paper Mario game, but this is in a platformer.
That extra shine in that pipe in the open sea that you need Yoshi to reach is pure torture. Again, bad design through and through. It’s not challenging, it’s just stupid. Having to redo the entire trip to the pipe if you fail is just adding insult to injury.
And the blue coins… hoo boy. That’s what you get when Nintendo chases trends AND is short on time.

Look, you can like the game and that's fine, but there’s a reason people like me - who were there day one - had forgotten every remotely good part of the game and only remembered the horrible parts before replaying SMS on Switch. And you know what, now I've been reminded of some more horrible parts. There were very good reasons I hadn't touched the game for more than 15 years.

 

[Hunter 99]

For me sunshine was good for it's time, oddyssey was the only Mario I didn't really enjoy as much as others. I tried to Like it but nothing compares to super Mario world ,Mario 64 and galaxy was amazing!
I was also that guy who got a Wii u and loved Mario 3d world or land on release.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

Mario sunshine was the best 3d Mario period, SM 64 was a close second. The best Mario game of all time is the OG SMB.

 

[apple_of_enlightenment]

The camera is the best camera of all the 3D marios. Problem is it gives all control to the player and a lot of people couldn't handle that.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Which is a bit like saying that the QTEs are the best parts of Resident Evil 4.*

*now somebody is definitely going to say that they are



It’s not difficult, it’s clunky as hell.

Getting to grips with Mario 64’s controls was hard because it was one of the first of its kind. I guess I’d be fuming at SM64’s slippery surfaces and insta-death quicksands and all that stuff if I never played it in the 90s. It would all seem so random and ”artificial difficulty”. But I could forgive it in a pioneering game from 1996. Sunshine came out 6 years later and it’s unreasonably clunky in comparison.
The camera alone serves the gameplay much worse than SM64’s rudimentary camera ever did, and a lot of movements just feel heavier than they should be, like when riding a manta ray or trying to maneuver that shitty boat in the volcano.
The physics are buggy and unpredictable; even if we don’t want to mention the horror that is the pachinko, Gelato Beach has plenty of instances where your success feels more due to luck than skill.
The camera is plain horrible in many instances, the most egregious one being the underwater boss fight, a visual mess worthy of some badly designed games of today.

Anyway, it’s the level design that takes several steps back from SM64.
Most missions alter a level’s design completely, making them a straightforward A to B trip with custom, fixed rules and no room for exploration.
The hotel is just a disaster from start to finish. The casino boss level is horrible game design through and through. I wouldn’t want that in a Paper Mario game, but this is in a platformer.
That extra shine in that pipe in the open sea that you need Yoshi to reach is pure torture. Again, bad design through and through. It’s not challenging, it’s just stupid. Having to redo the entire trip to the pipe if you fail is just adding insult to injury.
And the blue coins… hoo boy. That’s what you get when Nintendo chases trends AND is short on time.

Look, you can like the game and that's fine, but there’s a reason people like me - who were there day one - had forgotten every remotely good part of the game and only remembered the horrible parts before replaying SMS on Switch. And you know what, now I've been reminded of some more horrible parts. There were very good reasons I hadn't touched the game for more than 15 years.

I'd give you the underwater boss as a level with technical depth cueing and input issues making it feel more luck than skill, but all those others you describe as torture aren't clunky and are the challenge that feels rewarding, because with strategy, expert control of the camera and expert control of Mario you can achieve success in all those levels consistently as a 9/10 skill success ratio, which I suspect the Mario club testers all possessed, so never flagged the issues lesser gamers might have.

It is fine to not like it, but to suggest the world's greatest game designer considered by most didn't intentionally design the game that way, and it was a mistake because you want to call it bad design is just projection IMO. Sunshine(Double dash, and many first part GC games) is probably the pinnacle of gaming in its purest skill form, taking the difficulty learning curve of pure arcade games and blending with modern console production values, and all without the hand holding and pandering of today's blueprint/template games required to be completable by any gamer with just time on their hands. Go back and play some Atari 50 games or their ilk and remember where gaming has come from as a viable business where 30hours of gaming came from learning curves and then ask yourself whether Sunshine's "torture" levels are really that difficult in the context of highly skilled gamers - like you'd expect by the barrel load here on gaf?

For anyone that disliked the game I'd be interested to know by which video cable and output format they played it too, fearing alot of composite/svideo use on 32" or smaller TVs. I played it at US launch (by import via lik-sang) in the UK on 140"-200" projection on a white wall from a progressive scan capable Panasonic PT-AE100 projector and used Dolby Surround on a Sony 5.1 receiver using the Digital AV cable of the cube, and the game looked and sounded better than anything on any console at the time.

 

[RoadHazard]

It and Odyssey are bottom tier. Still very good though.

 

[F0rneus]

Decided to do a Rosalina run of 3D World and yeah, shit's fantastic. See that personality and charm, mixed with rock solid mechanics that Sunshine is lacking? It's here, in spades. And I just love that zippy feel of more condensed yet fun to explore levels that have a lot to offer. Bowser's Fury, is just the cherry on top of the sundae. It's a shame that OG 3D World came out 1) After Galaxy 2 2) On Wii U but I am glad it found it's audience eventually.

It just plain rocks. Inject that shit into my veins.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

I'd give you the underwater boss as a level with technical depth cueing and input issues making it feel more luck than skill, but all those others you describe as torture aren't clunky and are the challenge that feels rewarding, because with strategy, expert control of the camera and expert control of Mario you can achieve success in all those levels consistently as a 9/10 skill success ratio, which I suspect the Mario club testers all possessed, so never flagged the issues lesser gamers might have.

It is fine to not like it, but to suggest the world's greatest game designer considered by most didn't intentionally design the game that way, and it was a mistake because you want to call it bad design is just projection IMO. Sunshine(Double dash, and many first part GC games) is probably the pinnacle of gaming in its purest skill form, taking the difficulty learning curve of pure arcade games and blending with modern console production values, and all without the hand holding and pandering of today's blueprint/template games required to be completable by any gamer with just time on their hands. Go back and play some Atari 50 games or their ilk and remember where gaming has come from as a viable business where 30hours of gaming came from learning curves and then ask yourself whether Sunshine's "torture" levels are really that difficult in the context of highly skilled gamers - like you'd expect by the barrel load here on gaf?

For anyone that disliked the game I'd be interested to know by which video cable and output format they played it too, fearing alot of composite/svideo use on 32" or smaller TVs. I played it at US launch (by import via lik-sang) in the UK on 140"-200" projection on a white wall from a progressive scan capable Panasonic PT-AE100 projector and used Dolby Surround on a Sony 5.1 receiver using the Digital AV cable of the cube, and the game looked and sounded better than anything on any console at the time.

Ah yes, the “git gud” rhetoric. Never fails.
Let’s just ignore a lot of things I wrote, along with the fact that Super Mario 64 still has superior level design and its lows never go as low as that pachinko and its very convenient physics, or “speak to a random guy and pray you’re aligned to the correct pixel when he throws you to a place you can barely see in the distance”. What other Mario game had stuff like that? Exactly. Makes one wonder, doesn’t it?

I’d love to hear the Mario Club testers’s story on this.
However, I suspect that their success ratio with the worst stuff in Sunshine was far from 9/10.
Provided the game was even tested beyond making sure everything held together. Because it isn’t much fun, and when Nintendo actually has the time to make sure a game is fun through and through, they do.

 

[fart town usa]

Double Dash was awful. The gimmick of two riders per Kart got old in seconds and the tracks were average. Thankfully, Nintendo returned to form with MK Wii. Same goes for Mario Galaxy, which is probably the greatest game Nintendo has ever made and infinitely better than Sunshine.

I'm not talking about TP, but WW and the cartoon, cell shaded graphics. Really couldn't get into that art style and it actually causes me stress. TP looks fantastic visually, but again never played it.

It's all good. I personally love Double Dash but to each their own.

 

[fart town usa]

The did the Wii U dirty. I can't find it in me to forgive them.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

1. 64
2. Odyssey
3. Galaxy 2
4. Galaxy
5. 3D Land
6. 3D World
7. Sunshine

Played none of them as a kid. As much as I have no fond memories of it, Sunshine is fine. The rest all range from great to all-timer. It's been a long while since I touched a few of these though, and I might revisit some, but even only playing it for the first time in university, I've finished 64 like 5 times since and could go play it right now.

For some reason Odyssey didnt really click for me. It was fun through the first half and then got kind of repetitive. And I've always taken points off of the Galaxy games for being so linear. Mario 64 still my all time fav though. It's cohesive in the sense that you're exploring a castle while having all the open world exploration a person needs. I'd put sunshine at the bottom as well. Am I the only one that kind of enjoyed 3D World?