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Is Mario Sunshine the worst mainline Mario game?

I want a massive Mario world hub, with a central theme, where a lot of the exploration occurs, and then loads of open world levels that are icing on the cake. See Mario 64 for blueprint. I think this is all many Mario fans have wanted and it's embarrassing that Nintendo hasn't been successful in doing so. Sunshine could have been something without that beyond awful water pack. Too bad.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Ah yes, the “git gud” rhetoric. Never fails.
Let’s just ignore a lot of things I wrote, along with the fact that Super Mario 64 still has superior level design and its lows never go as low as that pachinko and its very convenient physics, or “speak to a random guy and pray you’re aligned to the correct pixel when he throws you to a place you can barely see in the distance”. What other Mario game had stuff like that? Exactly. Makes one wonder, doesn’t it?

I’d love to hear the Mario Club testers’s story on this.
However, I suspect that their success ratio with the worst stuff in Sunshine was far from 9/10.
Provided the game was even tested beyond making sure everything held together. Because it isn’t much fun, and when Nintendo actually has the time to make sure a game is fun through and through, they do.
I still feel you are projecting your experience as that shared experience of highly skilled gamers that like a challenge. In context Japan was still very much a main target in the home console market for Nintendo at the time, and the extreme challenges catered to their home market far more than the wider casual western market. Some of the issues you mentioned needed me to youtube because I blasted through them in each play through (I've played it about 4 times to completion since launch) without any issues. The Pachinko machine is pretty straight forward once you learn to scale the entrance as a succession wall jumps and use fludd to control your descents. The guy throwing you I very vaguely remember, but IIRC it is just a use of the camera to observe each attempt and find the right spot. In the later game you always have access speed booster nozzle or height jet nozzle, so having more goes on things that take a bit of trial and error was a balanced design IMO,

You also have to remember that the game still clung to certain hold overs from Nintendo's old premium rate help lines, but to say the game isn't fun feels like it just missed the mark for you. IMO most games lean heavily on their OST to flavour the fun, and the OST for Sunshine is Nintendo's best IMO. By comparison, and sorry if this burst your Mario 64 bubble, but the camera work and design in the game are largely because of the game hitting performance limits of the hardware and having Lakitu, control the camera constrains the freedom to stay in render budgets. The free camera being mostly available in Sunshine was a major advancement to give the user more, whereas in 64 the camera regular changes to effectively fixed 2.5D perspective to ensure the MODELVIEW transformation matrix remained constant on the geometry to eliminate the need to recalculate values or zbuffer and probably to use sprite background in place of texture mapping everything. It is still unbelievable design in Mario 64 but it isn't technically superior to Sunshine that gives worlds more camera freedom, traversal options, locals and variety of challenges IMHO.
 

EruditeHobo

Member
From the 3D games, 3D Land/World are the worst for me. They are basically isometric platform games, not free roam 3D. No camera control, no exploration, nothing. The boxy level design is also boring.

From the 2D games, dunno. One of the NSMB games, they are all too generic to separate.

Couldn't agree more about World. It's still fun, because of course it is (especially with a few friends). But in terms of how it's designed and inventiveness and use of control/movement, it easily comes in last for me.

It makes sense to me in that it's 2D platfotmer action and mechanics in a 3D environment. The other games could be action adventures. Nintendo solved a twenty year problem with Galaxy.

I still disagree... but I see what you mean now. And I think this is a fair and interesting argument. I could see how you could convince people this is true. (y)
 

Pejo

Member
I did not enjoy either of the Galaxy games which some people consider the best in the series, so I'm probably not worth asking. I thought Sunshine was better than both of those. It should be noted that I >>REALLY<< hated waggle controls.

Super Mario World for the SNES remains my all-time favorite Mario game, with Yoshi's Island and Super Mario 3D World coming in afterwards.
 

Marvel14

Banned
Its definitely the ugliest with the crappiest controls and bugs.

  • The delfino characters could haunt your nightmares and had zero personality.
  • That wave race shine Sprite that was so hard to register that you'd finished.
  • the jump and landing inaccuracies in the challenge sections.

The shadow Mario and expanded hub world innovations were pretty good though so it wasn't all bad..
 

Drake

Member
Galaxy actually gave me motion sickness. It's the only video game to ever do that to me. And I'm not someone who gets that. Actually, the only time in my life I ever got motion sickness was playing Mario Galaxy. So it gets my "worst Mario game" for that reason alone.
 

NeonDelta

Member
I loved it, it was the first Mario game I ever completed as N64 was my first Nintendo console and I don’t think I had Mario 64 until Wii virtual console
 

MarkMe2525

Gold Member
After years of only going through the first 3 doors, I finally am making a push through Mario 64. This came after dabbling in Sunshine. I don't know if it's the GameCube controller and my unfamiliarity with it, but SM64 just feels so much better. I imagine a lot of this reaction comes from the lack of a long jump in Sunshine, but it's amazing what Nintendo was able to pull off in their first attempt at 3d.
 

Shakka43

Member
I would say Mario 3D land or 3D world.

Galaxy started this dumb trend of fixing camera perspectives and then 3D land/world took that trend and ran with it.
The camera controls in Mario 64 and Sunshine sucked donkey balls though. I enjoyed 3D World a lot mostly for the co-op.
 

Muffdraul

Member
Maybe Sunshine is the "worst." That's not saying much, though. The worst mainline Mario game is still better than 99.9% of all of the other games out there, from any era you want to specify. Personally, I loved it.
 

Knightime_X

Member
I 100% this game back in the day.
The last 40% of the game, I believe I beat w\o dying once.
That also includes collecting ALL the coins and challenges.
 
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PrimeX

Member
Am I the only living being that didn't like Odissey?
I sold the sucker when I was half game through. On the other hand, finished 3D World several times.
 
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BlackTron

Gold Member
I actually think it's great that we have such a variety of types of 3D Mario games, and I like them all for what they bring to the table. The downside is that only one style can be your favorite and if a sequel isn't that style you're gonna be disappointed.

A little while after 64 came out, despite its massive accomplishments I found myself wishing it had not replaced the format of a linear platforming game full of levels. Especially since it had so many imitators resulting in the collectathon platformer era. I also wished it had multiplayer and Luigi. So 64 was outstanding, but it delivered a very different experience from prior Mario games which I didn't think, at the time, should be relegated to old systems and handhelds.

Nintendo apparently agreed, and we eventually got both NSMB and Galaxy on Wii. Galaxy was more linear in level design than open 64, in a unique gravity-devying, planet-hopping way to play to the Wii's hardware ability. This was really the dawn of the mash up of 3D with 2D style linearity, likely sparked by nothing but Wii's limitations. Suffice to say though that you won't like this game just because you like 2D, but it was the first time they started looking backwards to go forwards.

When we got 3D Land I thought it was great. It was, at last, a classic 2D style Mario game with linear levels, a flagpole at the end, exploration and power-ups, but in 3D. The sequel gave us all that on the TV and multiplayer. The downside is dealing with smaller moveset and fixed camera. To me, this is a sequel to Super Mario World. In comparison, Mario 64 is like a game in a different franchise doing it's own thing very successfully.

If you absolutely hate the idea of these "3D style sequels to 2D Mario games" and love 64, then Sunshine is going to stand on top of a lot of future games. I personally like them all, but also think Sunshine is the most rough around the edges in what it set out to do, without even comparing it to another game. When I played it, I was pissed off it was the 1 game with a tropical and water theme yet had such bad swimming controls I never wanted to go into the water (after we swam in the 64 courtyard just to gawk). FLUDD was weird and my favorite part were the warp stages where he took it off. I wanted an entire game of warp stages. I still liked it and finished the game, other than blue coins, but it's the rare oddity of a rushed and strangely conceived mainline Mario. If you want a full 3D movable camera big moveset collectathon though it's flaws will seem tiny compared to say 3D World where they simply made the wrong game for you.
 

Hudo

Member
  1. Mario 64
  2. Mario Odyssey
  3. Mario Sunshine
  4. Mario Galaxy
  5. Mario Galaxy 2
  6. Mario 3D Land
  7. Mario 3D World
You can't even move the camera in 3D World since it's mostly built off a template for a 3DS game (and it worked much better with the 3D screen). Any actual real 3D adventure is going to be better than the ones that are more on rails. They're all good, but no, Sunshine is not even close to the worst one.
And that's why you were banned.
 
Sunshine was good enough to finish it with the bare minimum levels needed, but I could not be bothered to do anything more. I appreciate that Nintendo sometimes tries things- certainly more than they do today-, but I rather have them try stuff with new IPs/spin offs. Do it like with Luigis Mansion or Warioware and reserve Mario for no nonsense platforming.
Objectively I can't remember anything actually bad about it though. But back then it felt wrong and just not what I wanted.
 

Krathoon

Member
You can tell Sunshine is rough around the edges. There is some jank in that game.

Still, I love it. It is a classic.
 

SF Kosmo

Al Jazeera Special Reporter
Without question. I got it packed in with my GameCube and I found it to be shockingly bad. Traded it in for Super Monkey Ball. I revisited it more recently with the Switch release and the years had done nothing to improve my opinion.

GameCube had dozens of better platformers. Hell, Billy Hatcher is a better game than Sunshine.
 

BlackTron

Gold Member
And that's why you were banned.

I actually got the idea to make a similar quip when I saw his post but decided against it. If you look carefully at his list, it's basically saying that he prefers 3D hub world exploration Mario with free camera over the other styles. While I don't personally agree with the ranking, I respect that opinion.
 

BlackTron

Gold Member
Hell, Billy Hatcher is a better game than Sunshine.
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