Is this guy who played Smash for a year the most dominant eSports player in history?

There really isn't any point comparing League and StarCraft. The challenges they present, especially for top-level players, are almost completely different.

StarCraft has a ridiculously high execution requirement, and particularly has an absurd execution tempo, requiring constant and consistent accuracy. League, conversely, is almost entirely about "breakpoints" that have incredibly high reaction speed requirements (much higher than the individual actions in StarCraft), but happen far more infrequently and generally require less accuracy in execution.

StarCraft has a very high moment-to-moment cognitive load - actually much more than most players can reasonably keep in "memory" - in terms of the sheer number of things players need to track, many of which are obfuscated (literally or figuratively) by factors like limited screen space. League has a relatively small number of moving parts, by comparison, but most of them tend to display far more complex behaviors. (That is to say, you usually won't have trouble in StarCraft knowing what a given unit is doing or going to do in any given situation, but you have to track hundreds of them simultaneously; in League you really only have to track a handful, but the individual heuristics are much more complicated.)

The main reason League has broader appeal is that aside from the reaction time prerequisite for top-level play, most of the skills can be learned. There's a certain "talent floor" to StarCraft that basically acts as an unspoken "You must have these physiological traits to ride"; if you do not have a brain wired in such a way as to be able to track enough things in short-term memory, or the manual dexterity necessary to commit enough of the rote actions to muscle memory, well... you can maybe get yourself up to Gold just on raw game knowledge and practice, but you're probably going to be pretty bad at the game from now until forever.

The main reason League will eventually be supplanted is that you can still go one better in terms of broadening appeal. Most people can learn all of the abilities of 125+ champions and incorporate them into their moment-to-moment heuristics, but most people probably don't want to. The game that replaces League on the "broad appeal competitive game" heap is probably going to be one that requires an order of magnitude less memorization, while still having similarly low barriers in terms of moment-to-moment cognitive load and physical execution.

TL;DR: Think of it as a spectrum. Fighting games have an enormous reflex requirement and incredibly complex heuristics, but task the player with tracking and managing an extremely small number of factors at any given time. RTS games require the player to track and manipulate an enormous number of moving parts, but are more overall more forgiving in terms of errors or missed windows in execution, and have a lower demand for ultra-fast reaction speeds. MOBA games are somewhere between the two on all counts.

(And, for a bonus, FPS games are even more twitch-focused than fighting games, replacing a great deal of the adaptive heuristics with rote memorization, and in most cases having very little information the player has to track in short-term memory. They would technically be the opposite extreme from RTS, if you wanted a full-spectrum view.)
 
These discussions are always full of cringe. It's not that serious, people.

Is Magic the gathering considered a sport?

Also lol at people getting so defensive at discussing fucking "esports".
Yes a million dollar industry is tofally worth getting dismissive about. These posts make me laugh. The amount of betting, views, etc. Commercialization is getting huge. Especially in SK. ALSO betting... (CSGO lounge) The equvialent would be fantasy football.
 
TL;DR: Think of it as a spectrum. Fighting games have an enormous reflex requirement and incredibly complex heuristics, but task the player with tracking and managing an extremely small number of factors at any given time. RTS games require the player to track and manipulate an enormous number of moving parts, but are more overall more forgiving in terms of errors or missed windows in execution, and have a lower demand for ultra-fast reaction speeds. MOBA games are somewhere between the two on all counts.

(And, for a bonus, FPS games are even more twitch-focused than fighting games, replacing a great deal of the adaptive heuristics with rote memorization, and in most cases having very little information the player has to track in short-term memory. They would technically be the opposite extreme from RTS, if you wanted a full-spectrum view.)

The difficulty in fighting games was mostly artificial, since console versions lacked when compared to the arcade experience. Now this obstacle has been lifted, you see more equity in good players and a huge rise in gameplay quality. Even though Japan still have the edge due to better arcade environments.
While FPS and RTS never really faced that problem. Home computers and tournament computers were the same, so it was easier to transfer knowledge and experience.
 
The difficulty in fighting games was mostly artificial, since console versions lacked when compared to the arcade experience. Now this obstacle has been lifted, you see more equity in good players and a huge rise in gameplay quality. Even though Japan still have the edge due to better arcade environments.
While FPS and RTS never really faced that problem. Home computers and tournament computers were the same, so it was easier to transfer knowledge and experience.

That's not the only factor. They've (mostly) reduced the execution requirement considerably over generations of fighters, with modern games being much more forgiving on inputs and the average combo execution being longer (bizarre one-frame links in SF4 aside). Most inputs are also quite a bit easier compared to the days of 720's and SNK pretzel motion HSDMs. Obviously, Smash (especially Smash 4) is an even more extreme example of this; the execution requirement is extremely small compared to older fighting games, with the vast majority of the game being played with single-motion inputs at generous frame windows.

RTS has actually gone the opposite direction, trending toward exclusion. Warcraft 1/2 actually didn't require a mutant brain to play properly; the raw number of units, different types of units/production buildings, and most importantly the complexity of units were all significantly lower than Starcraft. The most notable example of this is the unit complexity: most WC1/2 units were raw piles of stats that had almost no variance, making for extremely minimal cognitive footprint, while basically every SC2 unit has some sort of activated ability or changeable/alternate state that forces players to track them as active components rather than factoring them out. The end result being that even though UI improvements and intensity curve smoothing have made the games overall more accessible, the top-level play has essentially become impossible for many players to ever access regardless of practice.

The changing fortunes of these genres probably graphs pretty cleanly to the changes in skill floors/ceilings between them. The only real outlier is Broodwar, which was both significantly more complicated than WC2 and yet more popular. (Though, the improved interface did arguably make the skill floor lower, even if the skill ceiling went up by an order of magnitude.)
 
Keeping things fighting game related, I think it's interesting to compare Justin's 4 years in that time period to Zero's now, or any fighting game.

MvC2 took years to develop it's now quite fully developed metagame. With the resources we have now (YouTube, Twitch, online communities, etc), MvC3 was broken in a year. Everyone had single hit kill combos using DHC glitch, and incredibly hard to block incoming mixups. First hit won most games. UMvC3 took a little longer, but still developed considerably faster than MvC2.

How was it when Justin played MvC2? It doesn't seem like players had the same local scenes and online resources to advance their game as they do now. People discovering tech weren't a phone-video-upload-to-YouTube-and-new-EventHubs-post away from sharing it with the entire competitive scene. People didn't travel the country as much as they do now to compete. Was the level of competition really as high as even Smash 4 is now? (Level of competition, not difficulty of the game--not trying to get into that). In metro Detroit we have 100+ player weeklies. Monthlies and regionals bring even more. How do even those compare to a lot of the tournaments in Justin's win streak? (Legitimate question)


Also I'm glad this thread seems to have figured out the difference between dominant and dominate. Took a few pages.
 
This isn't about the best player, it's about the one who dominated the most in their game(s). Justin Wong had a stranglehold on Marvel vs Capcom 2 for four years and continued to be one of the top players after that.

Tokido (he doesn't just focus on SF4) and for fifteen minutes, Infiltration.
 
Also I'm glad this thread seems to have figured out the difference between dominant and dominate. Took a few pages.

That was bugging the crap out of me for some reason, but I didn't want to terrisus it up.
 
Anyone mention the OGRE twins in Halo? They were pretty dominant for a long while.

He's actually right. Sakurai hates competitive gaming, and he did not intend for Smash to be played the way it does. In fact, many of his decision choices are the antithesis to competitive play lol

Smash is designed to be a casual party game.

this is kind of hilarious coming from a halo player that wants to bring up the Ogres. You're not wrong, the Ogres were dominant but..

Bungie absolutely despised competitive multiplayer. Even 343 is pretty shit at it but it's their last hope at making Halo relevant these days so they pretend to embrace it.

So if we determine a games competitiveness on how the developer feels about competitive gaming, then Halo really is babies first shooter.
 
no they're fucking sad lol
This thread is getting better every page
dac15_sad.gif


XJKSGfo.jpg
 
I can't believe I missed it. Why does this always happen to me?!

I wanted to be part of the hype so bad :(

i dont even watch smash except veeeeeerrrryyyyry rarely, but i could hear the crowd yelling on the dota match i was watching so i HAD to switch over and look. i caught the very last game!!!

it was over in like the blink of an eye, i wasn't expecting it to end so fast
 
Are eSports participants called players or athletes? I forget.

Zero-1920x1080-1024x576.jpg


Gonzolo Barrios aka ZeRo aka Scarf Lord has been a notable competitive Smash player for a few years now. However, he didn't truly reach his apex (pun intended) until Smash 4 came out. Since then, he has won 55 Smash 4 tournaments. In a row. Out of 55 tournaments. CHECK IT IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME.

Notable victories:
Smash 4 Invitational aka the first time people got to see the game being played by other people in public
APEX 2015 champion
PAX 2015 champion
EVO 2015 champion, where he also defeated Nintendo World Champion John Numbers (this makes ZeRo the Nintendo World Champion right?)
Falcon Punched mew2king three times in five minutes

Is there anyone else in eSports that comes close to his dominance? Is one person completely dominating all pro competitions good or bad for the game? Can he be stopped? He is truly the Michael Jordan of video games. Or maybe Michael Jordan is the ZeRo of basketball.

Some of those tournaments sound like they were put on in backyards with 10 people attending. Do they even really count if they're not that important?
 
Top Bottom