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[WhateverItTakes]

The players I really appreciate are the ones with crossover. You can be a legend at your game, but if you manage to not only own that, but take down top players at your side game? Then you're a god. By this metric it would be JWong, no goddamn contest. I guess this logic only really applies to fighting games though.

 

[Toxi]

"Well, we don't consider Smash a fighting game, so we are dropping it from FGC majors and EVO."

You see how that would be a problem, right?

This won't happen because tournament organizers don't give a shit as long as Smash gets consistently great attendance and viewership.

The players I really appreciate are the ones with crossover. You can be a legend at your game, but if you manage to not only own that, but take down top players at your side game? Then you're a god. By this metric it would be JWong, no goddamn contest. I guess this logic only really applies to fighting games though.

Justin definitely takes the cake for sheer ass-kicking outside his comfort zone.

 

[Sigismundo]

Must mean that Dota 2 is the most complex ESport of them all. Please man, I love MOBAs but the strategy/tactics involved pale in comparison to SC2.

This all goes without mentioning Brood War, as well.

The players I really appreciate are the ones with crossover. You can be a legend at your game, but if you manage to not only own that, but take down top players at your side game? Then you're a god. By this metric it would be JWong, no goddamn contest. I guess this logic only really applies to fighting games though.

Are there any Known Capcom Fighting Game Players that have any crossover with the Smash scene?

 

[Toxi]

Are there any Known Capcom Fighting Game Players that have any crossover with the Smash scene?

Justin da gawd

 

[Haly]

The players I really appreciate are the ones with crossover. You can be a legend at your game, but if you manage to not only own that, but take down top players at your side game? Then you're a god. By this metric it would be JWong, no goddamn contest. I guess this logic only really applies to fighting games though.

I feel the reason this doesn't happen much with other "esports" is because being a pro player tends to be a full time job. People are reluctant to just drop a game and pick up a new one since it means building up those industry/fan connections all over again. Juggling multiple games is unheard of as far as I'm aware.

Although what does wind up happening is that ex-SC2 players might pick up HOTS and ex-League/Dota/MTG players might pick up Hearthstone, and I think in both of those cases, it's to leverage the larger streaming audience/lower barrier of entry to become "relevant" again, so that's fundamentally different from what Jwong does.

(Still waiting for Jwong to pick up EXVS.)

 

[mnz]

Don't like that so many people say Justin Wong. He dominated MvC2 yeah, but that's kind of it. Is that why people pick him? There are so many better fighting game players alone out there, it doesn't make sense.

 

[Toxi]

Don't like that so many people say Justin Wong. He dominated MvC2 yeah, but that's kind of it. Is that why people pick him? There are so many better fighting game players alone out there, it doesn't make sense.

Who would you say are more dominant fighting game players?

This isn't about the best player, it's about the one who dominated the most in their game(s). Justin Wong had a stranglehold on Marvel vs Capcom 2 for four years and continued to be one of the top players after that.

 

[Kusagari]

Don't like that so many people say Justin Wong. He dominated MvC2 yeah, but that's kind of it. Is that why people pick him? There are so many better fighting game players alone out there, it doesn't make sense.

Justin has been a top tier player in Marvel 2, Marvel 3, Third Strike, SFIV and other games as well.

Where are all these fighting game players better than him?

 

[Shining Sunshine]

I don't even know where to start with this. Are you really saying League "macro" is equal to Starcraft macro?

Are you saying League doesn't have resources? Because it does, and map movement to capitalize on those resources is a huge deal.

 

[mnz]

Who would you say are more dominant fighting game players?

Justin has been a top tier player in Marvel 2, Marvel 3, Third Strike, SFIV and other games as well.

Where are all these fighting game players better than him?

Yeah, I give you Marvel 3 as well, of course. But yeah, Daigo, Nuki and Tokido, for example. Justin got his ass whooped regularly in Japan. He dominated the US in Street Fighter for a while, but there where SBOs where his team didn't win a single game.

 

[Syf]

Are you saying League doesn't have resources? Because it does, and map movement to capitalize on those resources is a huge deal.

Where did I say that? I realize League has resources. But I also realize the difference between how those resources are gathered, managed and used is huge between the two games. Like not even in the same category.

 

[Anth0ny]

"This guy who played smash for a year"

 

[Gorillaz]

Are any Smash 4 players besides Zero recognized as monsters? He feels like the only name I ever hear of in regards to the game which is a definite contrast to Melee.

Even when Justin dominated marvel, the other guys under him were legendary in their own right. Smash 4 feels like it's Zero and nobody else.

there were a few from the last tourney but he is basically "the guy"

said he was gonna fuck around with melee now for awhile too

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I think this is the thread that has given the most compliments to Justin Wong that I've seen in a long time.

 

[Toxi]

Yeah, I give you Marvel 3 as well, of course. But yeah, Daigo, Nuki and Tokido, for example. Justin got his ass whooped regularly in Japan. Justin dominated the US in Street Fighter for a while, but there where SBOs where his team didn't win a single game.

Again, you're missing the point. The thread isn't about "who is better" but "who was basically unbeatable for a long-ass time at their game(s)".

Like Tokido is amazing, but he's never had a period of absolute dominance over a game like that.

 

[Shining Sunshine]

Where did I say that? I realize League has resources. But I also realize the difference between how those resources are gathered, managed and used is huge between the two games. Like not even in the same category.

Not really "huge". CSing, jungling, taking objectives is different from Starcraft resource gathering, but the Macro strategies are the same.

When you're deciding which units or structures to build, it's the same thing as the choices of what item builds that the player takes.

The mechanics behind these games have a lot more similarities than you think. The fact that one has more unit management is just making you believe otherwise.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Yeah, I give you Marvel 3 as well, of course. But yeah, Daigo, Nuki and Tokido, for example. Justin got his ass whooped regularly in Japan. He dominated the US in Street Fighter for a while, but there where SBOs where his team didn't win a single game.

I'm not sure you realize what it means to win 4 EVOs in a row, especially in a game like Marvel vs Capcom 2. The thing is, Daigo, Nuki and Tokido are really good players, but did they dominate like Wong ? Nope.

 

[Mr. X]

Pyrolee and LetBloodRun are better than Wong in 3S as far as USA player

 

[EviLore]

Not really "huge". CSing, jungling, taking objectives is different from Starcraft resource gathering, but the Macro strategies are the same.

When you're deciding which units or structures to build, it's the same thing as the choices of what item builds that the player takes.

The mechanics behind these games have a lot more similarities than you think. The fact that one has more unit management is just making you believe otherwise.

League is closer in mechanical complexity to Peggle than Starcraft.

 

[Syf]

Not really "huge". CSing, jungling, taking objectives is different from Starcraft resource gathering, but the Macro strategies are the same.

When you're deciding which units or structures to build, it's the same thing as the choices of what item builds that the player takes.

The mechanics behind these games have a lot more similarities than you think. The fact that one has more unit management is just making you believe otherwise.

Yes, it is huge. Buying an item isn't even comparable to base and unit production. Your argument is just silly.

 

[AnathemicOne]

Not really "huge". CSing, jungling, taking objectives is different from Starcraft resource gathering, but the Macro strategies are the same.

When you're deciding which units or structures to build, it's the same thing as the choices of what item builds that the player takes.

The mechanics behind these games have a lot more similarities than you think. The fact that one has more unit management is just making you believe otherwise.

You can't call them different and the same in the same sentence, make up your mind. Planning what items to build upon is different than planning what building/tech path you want to go. Controlling a hero with 4 (potentially 10) abilities in unison with a team against another team is different than controlling armies with dozens of different units with their own specific abilities/stats against similar enemy armies.

 

[mnz]

Again, you're missing the point. The thread isn't about "who is better" but "who was basically unbeatable for a long-ass time at their game(s)".

Like Tokido is amazing, but he's never had a period of absolute dominance over a game like that.

I'm not sure you realize what it means to win 4 EVOs in a row, especially in a game like Marvel vs Capcom 2. The thing is, Daigo, Nuki and Tokido are really good players, but did they dominate like Wong ? Nope.

Guess you are right, but that's really only true for that specific MvC2 period, then. Meh.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

there were a few from the last tourney but he is basically "the guy"

said he was gonna fuck around with melee now for awhile too

He was supposed to take up and focus on Melee after EVO this year if he won, but he changed his mind. He originally said he was inspired by Leffen to see what he could accomplish in Melee, but decided that his heart wasn't in it and that being a target in 4 was better for that scene than trying his hand at Melee was for that game's scene.

 

[Anth0ny]

Guess you are right, but that's really only true for that specific MvC2 period, then. Meh.

Correct. No one has dominated at a single game harder than Justin during those Marvel 2 years. Zero is on his way but not even close at this point.

 

[SoulUnison]

It's Fatal1ty, and Daigo.
Fatal1ty's face was basically the "brand" of PC gaming for a couple years, and Daigo is the star of probably the most famous fighting game moment ever.

Zer0 isn't even on the same planet as these guys.

If you think Zer0 is the "most prolific eSports player in history" then I imagine you're something like 12 years old and your "history" stretches as far back as maybe two years ago.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Guess you are right, but that's really only true for that specific MvC2 period, then. Meh.

I don't really understand your point when the topic at hand is about one guy's dominance of one game over the span of one year.

 

[Syf]

League is closer in mechanical complexity to Peggle than Starcraft.

I like you

 

[Nibel]

So you're saying it's not a platformer or a multiplayer-centric game? There's a line up for people who are wrong in this thread.

Yeah but you've been blocking that line for a few pages now fam

League is closer in mechanical complexity to Peggle than Starcraft.

Basically, lol. I don't know how one even manages to compare both, like watch some streams of both games and the difference should be quite clear.

 

[RocketRacoon]

I'm sure he's real good, and maybe even the best Smash player from what I'm reading. But there are other players in just the fighting game community that have been tyrants for years at a time, and A-list players across multiple games. Daigo and Wong would both fit "dominant" above him for sure.

OP has a cool point though, there are some players in each area of competitive gaming that just run rampant over the rest of the populous. I'm sure Starcraft is fucked too, along with League and DOTA.

Also to the people saying "well he was only good during that period of MvC2" thats literally the same argument. This kid is only good during THIS period of Smash. That doesn't mean shit. He's dope, Wong was dope, etc etc.

 

[bidguy]

faker

 

[Ghost is Bad]

No it doesn't.

Where Starcraft, you need to worry about micromanaging hundreds of units, League excels in strategies in team composition and being skilled in the 126 champion pool that's constantly growing. Compound that with having to work with or even carry teammates that adds even more complexity to being able to win the game.

Both games have resource management macro strategy.
Both games have objective play.
Both games have skill micromanagement.

League is as complex as Starcraft in terms of eSports.

holy shit you actually don't know what you're talking about

 

[Smooth Operator]

It's Fatal1ty, and Daigo.
Fatal1ty's face was basically the "brand" of PC gaming for a couple years, and Daigo is the star of probably the most famous fighting game moment ever.

We are talking about the most dominant player, and Daigo being the "star" of Street Fighter 4 doesn't mean that he's unbeatable. Daigo didn't even won an EVO since 2010.

 

[Dereck]

 

[Stahsky]

No it doesn't.

Where Starcraft, you need to worry about micromanaging hundreds of units, League excels in strategies in team composition and being skilled in the 126 champion pool that's constantly growing. Compound that with having to work with or even carry teammates that adds even more complexity to being able to win the game.

Both games have resource management macro strategy.
Both games have objective play.
Both games have skill micromanagement.

League is as complex as Starcraft in terms of eSports.

lmao

 

[Yoshichan]

Who is Flash

who is Boxer

who is naDa

Flash, Boxer, Jaedong

Holy fucking shit, these bonjwas

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

Not even close. lol smash

 

[Smooth Operator]

League is as complex as Starcraft in terms of eSports.

 

[Hazaro]

Sunshine stop please

Cheesy intros are fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTjgCdYxDQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiderg1VOlM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTTwOMIzhA8 (Still get chills from this)

 

[Yoshichan]

No it doesn't.

Where Starcraft, you need to worry about micromanaging hundreds of units, League excels in strategies in team composition and being skilled in the 126 champion pool that's constantly growing. Compound that with having to work with or even carry teammates that adds even more complexity to being able to win the game.

Both games have resource management macro strategy.
Both games have objective play.
Both games have skill micromanagement.

League is as complex as Starcraft in terms of eSports.

This might just be 2015s most infuriating post so far for me.

Good job.

 

[mnz]

I want to add someone people forgot about now, but he was ridiculous back in the day. I'm only naming the biggest tournaments.

Christian "GitzZz" Höck

Unreal Tournament
World Cyber Games 2001: #1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWFBxa5Qp5k
World Cyber Games 2002: #1

Unreal Tournament 2003
Electronic Sports World Cup 2003: #1

Unreal Tournament 2004
Electronic Sports World Cup 2004: #2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjFb91x4YVs
Cyberathlete Professional League Summer 1on1: #1
Cyberathlete Professional League Summer 4on4: #1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l69P24-EMlk


Considered the best UT duel player of all time, won world titles in three different UT games and showed probably the highest levels of play ever, especially in UT99.

 

[Sinatar]

League is as complex as Starcraft in terms of eSports.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Maybe it's time you stopped posting, Sunshine.

 

[theprodigy]

Maybe it's time you stopped posting, Sunshine.

That could've been said from the very first post he made in here.

 

[Pureauthor]

The simplified clone of the mod that became so popular because it offered a simpler alternative to the RTS that it was spawned in, is as complex as that RTS' more complex brother.

Yessssss.

 

[petran79]

I'm gonna sound like an asshole for saying this, put I don't think Sakurai is as good as people make him out to be when they cite stuff like him winning a 100 man tournament and stuff like this. First of all, in the stone age of the internet, there really is no record of really old tournaments because they really didn't reach as much people like today. Japan also liked single elimination tournaments, so he probably only needed to face like 5-7 opponents, since there are no losers brackets. Not only that but scrub mentality was pretty prevalent within back then, stuff like tick throws and fireballs being cheap, and the fact that the genre being young had the base fundamentals of a player much weaker since they didn't understand the game as well (when a game comes out today, information about "tech" and the ins and outs of a character spread extremely fast. It takes much less time to "explore" a competitive game today than it was before). Not saying that any scrub would win an SF2 tournament back in the day, but I think SF2 tournament players will have less understanding of the game than something like modern day ST players for obvious reasons.

If you play a lot of fighting games, you will always face many players who are not up to your skill level. The people who play a lot will always run into situations where they might be facing someone who is new to the game, and after beating them, they shrug and move on. Hell it happens to Daigo Umehara a lot in exhibitions like this kid

Why would 1 event like this really stick with him so much? It's like dime a dozen that your run into newbies in the lifespan of a game. And it's not like landing Zanretsuken is an amazing achievement with Ryo. But I digress, no matter how much someone has accomplished in a tournament, it really has no bearing on what their skills are as a game designer, and in a way, I I think these comments were made when people questioned him on balance, but it really is sort of irrelevant (A lot of good fighting game players today don't necessarily have the best opinions on game balance when they are asked, everyone always has some form of bias in these things).

Also it was impossible to have at home an exact replica of the arcade controller you'd see in an arcade cab and train. You had to own the cab yourself or spend a lot of time in the arcades. Not all were willing to go through that ordeal. Console versions (excluding Neo Geo and some SF2T ports) were never seen as an arcade replacement. Both because online was from rudimentary to non-existent and also because depending on the conversion quality, it made the games feel different.

Now you have console and arcade parity and you can buy your own arcade stick and train at home. Back then there were people who could not even perform a shoryuken with a clunky and dirty arcade controller, since they were only used to playing SF2 on the SNES pad.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

I came for the laughs.. staying for the sunshine shining lol!

 

[Skux]

The thing about esports players is that people who don't play their game often have no idea who they are, and don't have the game knowledge to appreciate their skill. If you showed a layman the Faker v Ryu Zed duel from LoL, no one would have a clue what was going on.

So you can't really compare across games. It's like trying to say Jordan is better than Federer, it's a meaningless comparison.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Lol OP is so naive, Justin dominated the run for like years upon years.

 

[Asmodai48]

No it doesn't.

Where Starcraft, you need to worry about micromanaging hundreds of units, League excels in strategies in team composition and being skilled in the 126 champion pool that's constantly growing. Compound that with having to work with or even carry teammates that adds even more complexity to being able to win the game.

Both games have resource management macro strategy.
Both games have objective play.
Both games have skill micromanagement.

League is as complex as Starcraft in terms of eSports.

I guess that makes Dota at least twice as complex then.

 

[Tinfoilhatsron]

Is this thread a joke?

Most hilarious thread backfire EVER.
Take the L OP.

Also expand your horizons. Have you heard of Starcraft? NiP? Other epsorts games? Lol.