Muffdraul
Member
LOL at Palestinian being an ethnicity.
And if Isreal's goal was truly any kind of "cleansing" they could achieve it in a matter of days.
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Israel Sends Troops Into West Bank After Settlers Killed in Terrorist Attack
- Thread starter KimiNewt
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LOL at Palestinian being an ethnicity.
And if Isreal's goal was truly any kind of "cleansing" they could achieve it in a matter of days.
Poodlestrike
Banned
This one stuck out to me:
But really all the whataboutism regarding the settlers is pretty much part and parcel."This sucks, but what about all the terrible stuff they did" is basically just giving a little honey to hide the ocean of vinegar. Yes, the the settlements and the behavior of those who live there is problematic as hell, and the establishment of new settlements should be stopped immediately. But this is a massively complicated region with a massively complicated history, and people pretending that it's a simple black and white problem frustrate the hell out of me.
freeofgreed
Member
So what do you want people to do them?
Do you just want people in this thread to say "oh this was tragic" "RIP" and leave it at that? What kind of thread would that be? I understand your frustration but if you just want people to mourn these deaths and not talk any further about the issue, then guess what? Killings like these are going to just keep on happening. If you just close your ears and go "la la la" and think this is a 100% black and white issue then all you doing is condeming even more israeli settlers to death, because if we don't talk about the elephant in the room, these killings are just going to keep on happening.
Has anyone specifically said these actions are justified? Or are people just trying to put this incident into proper context to properly judge it and the larger situation it is a part of?
I personally become skeptical because I frequent pretty much every thread on this subject and some of you all defending Israel and their peoples actions are conveniently absent in the threads that have been posted that do give a timeline and context for why this is happening. And the abhorrent behavior of Israel.
If you believe the settlements are illegal. If you believe these settlers are essentially breaking international law and illegally occupying another's land, then you can't call these people completely innocent. That doesnt make the actions of these palestenians justified or permissible. Those ideas aren't mutually exclusive.
You're the one who is seemingly wanting to frame this in black and white terms while most everyone else around you is trying to see this through the grey prism it exists in.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Out of interest, what's so massively complicated about Palestine/Israel?
What the shit. What do you think, Palestinians are, some kind of dog breed?
And Israel is on the slow burn to not rile the international community up too much. If they were actually cleansing everyone, not even the USA could protect them reasonably. So they stoop to oppression mostly to push the native Palestinians out or provoke them into action to have an casus belli to attack them. This circle has repeated for decades.
freeofgreed
Member
A lot of people ITT seem tohave a fundamental misunderstanding of what a
whataboutism is.
Re-posting this because apparently people seem to think that discussing Israel's settlement policy in the west bank in a thread about Israel Settlers in the west bank is somehow a deflection.
whataboutism is.
Re-posting this because apparently people seem to think that discussing Israel's settlement policy in the west bank in a thread about Israel Settlers in the west bank is somehow a deflection.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Yes, the rest were very careful to add a "of course this is bad" clause to the front.
Because "this is bad, but they totally deserved it" and "they totally deserved it" are not meaningfully distinct statements, because the former comes off as laughably insincere.
That's what's so frustrating! I know it's not black and white! But so many people around here are convinced that it is, that those poor Palestinians are just fighting the good fight against the big bad Israelis! The tragedy of this entire mess is that both sides are entirely fucked!
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
If you have to ask that question, your mind isn't going to change with one response.
Corronchilejano
Member
a. The land belongs to palestinians, legally.
b. Israel decided to fuck that noise, and displace them.
c. They also started building settlements there.
There's literally no reason for Israel to be there. Whatever complicated history there is there, it's pretty obvious who is fucking up. Nothing the original land owners have done has helped them, and the international community is silent.
Because we know that this incident isn't isolated, and it will happen again because the rightful owners of the land have no legal recourse of any sort. This is literally Israel doing whatever the fuck they want with palestinians. This is apartheid.
Not without losing the support of the West and becoming the biggest military target in the world.
Both sides are fucked but only one side has the ability to fix the situation.
Palestinians aren't violent. Israel expands
Palestinians are violent. Israel expands.
The constant factor is that no matter what the Palestinians do (and there have been plenty of periods of both calm and violence) Israel KEEPS EXPANDING.
Palestinians aren't violent. Israel expands
Palestinians are violent. Israel expands.
The constant factor is that no matter what the Palestinians do (and there have been plenty of periods of both calm and violence) Israel KEEPS EXPANDING.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Lawd, where to start?
Okay, about 5000 or so years ago...
Nah, I'm not doing this. Shouldn't have come into this thread in the first place. I apologize if I offended people.
Miles Quaritch
Member
It seems that everyone throws out the region is massively complicated, but you often find it's actually not that complicated and it's a catchword people throw out to try and add layers to a problems where none really exist.
Reading up on this on Haaretz. oh Naftali Bennet you so crazy.
riiiiiiiiiiiiight.
The people who did the killings are terrorists full stop, but I also think painting Settlers as somehow unstained innocents is misleading, these particular people for example come from a place called Neria which is a community of religious zionists. one of the ideas of religious zionists is that the jews have a god-given right to the land and that it is their obligation to be settlers, to take that land from the palestinians because it is God's will.
So they won't stop, ever, they're on a mission from god.
*looks at jewish home members in ministerial positions*
riiiiiiiiiiiiight.
The people who did the killings are terrorists full stop, but I also think painting Settlers as somehow unstained innocents is misleading, these particular people for example come from a place called Neria which is a community of religious zionists. one of the ideas of religious zionists is that the jews have a god-given right to the land and that it is their obligation to be settlers, to take that land from the palestinians because it is God's will.
So they won't stop, ever, they're on a mission from god.
Corronchilejano
Member
You should do this, and also attempt to understand other posters. We've been having a civil conversation all this time. If you've a point to make, do it clearly.
Zvonimir Boban
Banned
A) Yes it is.
B) This is "Islam isn't a race" levels of deflecting
Dragging it out over decades means less of a headache for/from the international community.
But I suspect you knew that already.
I said it in one of the last threads about the rise of settler terrorist attacks on Palestinians and the expansion of settlements in the face of the West Bank trying to remain peaceful as the likely starting point of the Palestinian people in the West Bank losing hope in the notion of a peaceful process being the key to securing statehood.
I wouldn't be surprised if this continues to escalate until another disproportional confrontation occurs... I hope I am wrong though.
Corronchilejano
Member
...
This argument has always been so self-evidently stupid. It's the salami strategy. It's far more conducive to do it gradually over time so as to avoid any blowback. It's like saying Russia can't be looking to grab east Ukraine because if they wanted to they could sweep across the country in days.
freeofgreed
Member
No don't leave. I honestly do want to hear your perspective. So far this conversation has been heated but civil. I understand that you're a bit outnumber but I think that alos means you have to bigger audience to explain your side.
Honestly from my understanding of the conflict this is largely the case tho. Whatever happened centuries ago between the two groups shouldn't be used as justification today. These killings are definitely wrong and the people who committed them should be held responsible. But as a black man in America, this situation is far too similar to the Baltimore Riots and the whole "why are they destroying their own communities" bs. When a group is being oppressed and they have no legal method of fighting back, sometimes violence is there only option. So I am not going to throw the Palestinians under the bus just for this situation, as I understand it all too well.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
But...they are. It's an ethnic subgroup of the larger panethnic grouping referred to as "Arab."
Wouldn't happen. They'd lose any of the bigger lingering support they have and paint a military bullseye on themselves. They're going for the long-con here. Quieter, less obvious, less costly, safer.
freeofgreed
Member
Trash posts. and people wonder why the Israeli side of the argument is so unpopular here when this is the level of discourse used to defend its actions.
The thing is. The Palestinian were living there for centuries, the state of Israel came later with the casus belli of borders from two thousand years ago and the will and the means to get it all.
mercenar1e
Member
Most of them aren't Israeli citizens.
20cent
Banned
5000 years ago.... so what.
That's the constant story of any civilization/country in this world even more recently. Then native populations from Australia, North & South America should retaliate hundred of years later, reclame their land and keep a grudge forever?
Israel legitimacy comes from a religious book. I respect religions to a certain limit but it is as ridiculous as any extremist interpretation of the Quran.
A land was given by the United Nations, they should accept it as it is (was) and keep low profile without taking out of their asses GW Bush bureaucracy-style theories about Nukes targeting them.
About the Israeli children becoming orphans, that's really sad. At least the other side kill both the parents and the children with white phosphorous in primary schools. "/s"
Corronchilejano
Member
It really doesn't matter since the settlements are sanctioned by Israel itself.
It is not simply about Palestinian oppression to the hard line Israelis that push for policies that actively work against any chance for a two state solution. To ignore the existential threat Israel faces from its neighbors is naive. The endgame to many factions in the Middle East is not a just a Palestinian state free from Israeli influence, but the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people. This is a significant motivator for much of what Israel does, and unfortunately it leads to hateful, irrational, disproportionate and oppressive actions.
Time is running out on a two state solution based on the 1967 borders. We need leaders who understand that a path to peace is the only way forward and are willing to accept the compromises and criticism from the people that comes along with it. Unfortunately the courage isn't there, the trust isn't there, and there is currently no end in sight.
The problem I have with this is that it ignores the fact that Israel has a peaceful border with
Egypt
Jordan
And has a border that is far calmer than the Palestinian one with Lebanon.
The common factor in all three is that Israel withdraw from land that it was occupying. The precedent is clear for the last 4 decades. If Israel stops occupying land and gives up military control calm follows.
For some god forsaken reason that approach is just not followed by Israel when it comes to Palestine.
Edit: And seriously the two other powers in the region Iran and Saudi Arabia hate each other far more than they hate Israel and have too many pressing domestic concerns to mess with Israel in any case. They just use Palestinians as occasional propaganda fodder. There's nothing that Israel needs fear from leaving the West Bank and Gaza strip alone. Other than pissing off the settlers that share a Jewish bloodline. Fuck those settlers.They're not worth the money and blood Israel spends on them.
Crash Station
Member
I do think that people not even knowing about it shows a bias, whether it be related to biased news sources people check or just a lack of interest. As far as threads here go, you'll definitely see a difference in responses and size when it's a Palestinian attack on Israelis as opposed to the other way around.
Not saying there's no reason for that, just an observation. I'm mostly neutral here with a slight leaning toward Israel because I have friends and family there.
It is my understanding at least that the Hamas-Fatah conflict and the differences they share has contributed to the instability of the peace talks over the decades. You cannot have good faith talks with one leader while the other is actively promoting attacks, the act of enforcing a controversial agreement would be impossible should it come to pass.
This is not to say that Netanyahu's government is without blame, I am routinely disappointed with the rhetoric, lies and inaction of his government, but as you said it's not like peace with other Muslim neighbors has not been achieved throughout the history of the country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
All you need to do is read the first sentence and you can stop embarassing yourself.
It's literally the Settler's goal to settle all the land and force the palestinians out, that is ethnic cleansing. It doesn't matter how fast it fucking happens, it is happening, all the fucking time.
if they're protected by the israeli legal and political systems and violence against them prompts massive over-retaliation from the IDF then i don't think the distinction is meaningful
israel is treating these people as their own and is clearly taking responsibility for them
the problem isn't political leaders on the other side, the problem is that israeli politicians are incentivized to continue the conflict. they don't want to give up their apartheid state, and continuing to antagonize and oppress the palestinian populace gives them votes.
palestine as a state can't stop this conflict. israel can.
Hamas didn't exist until 1987. 20 years after 1967. And it's not just the Nehtanyahu government. It's every government since 1967 that's expanded Israel onto Palestinian land and controlled Palestinian borders. I'm sorry megalowho but the common factor has always been Israeli state policy to constantly expand, create civilian 'facts on the ground' via settlers, and push Palestinians out.
Edit: And what do you need talks for anyway to stop occupying? If need be just do what Ehud Barak did with Lebanon and just pull back without any peace talks.
Peace talks have lead to settlement withdrawals in the past. According to Israel, under the current borders they are building settlements on Israeli territory. The lines must be redrawn and agreed upon on an international stage, with withdrawal being part of the agreement. The political climate is not there for an act of good faith, certainly not with the current Israeli leadership.
I can't go down this conversation much further, I'm not enough of an expert on the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict required to debate every point, but it is a complicated issue that shouldn't be oversimplified due to emotions. Basically I agree with the poster that said it's far from black and white and wanted to back them up.
Peaceful borders with Egypt and Jordan?
You do know why these borders are more "calm". For one, before they were calm Egypt, Jordan and Syria had a battle with Israel in 1967 that led to Israel seizing West Bank and Gaza while destroying Egypt's Air Force . The borders are "calm" now because Egypt and Jordan see that Israel can defend itself, especially since they have fortified their borders. Before that Egypt and Jordan controlled Palestine and kept their citizens at a distance. They didn't want the refugees and because of the 1967 battle many Palestinians were displaced. You can blame Egypt and Jordan for that. Meanwhile many Arab countries kicked their Jewish population out of their country for the heck of it and Israel and Europe had to adopt them.
None of that refutes the idea that when Israel gives up occupied land that things become much more peaceful. If Israel can defend itself against Egyptians then it can certainly defend itself against Palestinians and there is no good reason not to withdraw to 1967 borders with Palestine in the same manner that Israel withdrew from the Aravah and the Sinai Peninsula.
meaglowho: If there are complications than raise them. I don't see them. All I see is that Israel for some unknown reason prefers to spend blood and money on settlers rather than not spend blood and money on settlers in exchange for withdrawal to 1967 borders and peace. An approach that has worked with Egypt and Jordan and even Hezbollah.
Spend blood and money to maintain war vs not spend blood and money for a tried and tested approach to get peace. Seems obvious and not at all complicated to me to be honest.
Edit: All it takes is not giving a shit about the settlers and why should anybody give a shit about the settlers?
TheRealTalker
Banned
after they take all of Palestine (since that is clearly happening with no real opposition to defy it) then what is next?
Maybe parts of Syria... Jordan has some significance
Maybe parts of Syria... Jordan has some significance
ethnic cleansing, aka, anyone who's not jewish.
For the record I don't quite agree it's necessarily ethnic cleansing, just think you should understand the argument being made.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
I think they can blame the killers too.
Leyasu
Banned
Ask any Frenchman if they think that the resistance in WW2 were terrorists and see what they say.
The history books all say the same. Yet Palestinians are called terrorists. Very strange
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