Stop. Italy is not Greece at all, it is not on the verge of bankruptcy by any means...Let's be reasonable for just a second here. If even a jerk like Berlusconi managed to maintain the domestic budget in correct shape, it will be perfectly fine with Mr. Monti, Ravanelli, Mona Lisa or even Cthulhu.
Italy Bond Yields Spike, Bankruptcy Looms
- Thread starter zomgbbqftw
- Start date
- Status
el retorno
Member
radioheadrule83 said:
Its funny isn´t what your discribing (the individual states going hogwild) the exact same thing that happened in the US under the articles of confederation? There wasn´t enough of a central power and states ran up debts and went crazy. It took the consitution with a strong federal power, which can at times tell the states to shut up and do what it wants, to fix it.
I could be wrong I´m not really thinking too much this afternoon....
el retorno
Member
Funky Papa said:
I keep seeing that many of the Southern European countries don´t have a lot of external debt, its all internal, but German and French banks seem to have went crazy buying up Italian, Spanish and Greek debt. I think they should have been smarter and realized these weren´t that safe of investments
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
In the end, it's the same old tale of greed. They knew our growth wasn't sustainable at all, but the money was too good to stop or even suggest some sensible reforms, and when the reckoning came, they were caught with their pants down.el retorno de los sapos said:
Spain, Italy and Greece should take full responsability for electing shit leaders and not purging their countries when they had the chance, and both Germany and France should shut the fuck up and start working in real reform instead of pointing fingers and not recogninzing that they are in the crosshairs because they decided to look the other way. Otherwise we'll keep committing the same mistakes over and over again.
Again, as a Spaniard I fully believe that we are responsible of our own failure and I won't claim that our current misfortune is the result of other nation's meddling. What really fucking grates me is Sarkozy and Merkel's arrogance. That attitude is not going to make their countries any favours.
radioheadrule83
Banned
Funky Papa said:
If the rest of the Eurozone was content to look the other way as you put it, then they are culpable, and should each share in that 'full responsibility'. The scapegoating (not saying you are scapegoating personally) is both sad and dangerous imo.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Even the EFSF is faltering now. A good primer in how the funding mechanism works for it and a look into how well "attracting Asian investors is going":
http://blogs.channel4.com/faisal-is...e-world-says-nein-danke-to-euro-bailout/15488
http://blogs.channel4.com/faisal-is...e-world-says-nein-danke-to-euro-bailout/15488
el retorno
Member
Funky Papa said:
I´m not saying the southern economies aren´t guilty of bringing a lot of this on themselves but that the Northern European banks and economies are responsible for much of the "contagion." They knew full well and as you said were blinded by the good years.
Also I want to know how Scandinavian countries have such good politicians? I disagree with their government philosphy (the giant government) but still I have to give them props that their politicians seem to be actually conserned with the actual health of the country rather than being reelected.
you're exactly right. The EU right now is in the same state as the US was under the articles of confederation. It's not a centralized authority, but rather a bunch of sovereign states bound together, like hte US under the articles. Modifications to the articles required unanimous approval by all state legislatures, as did most other decisions by congress. Congress also had no taxation power, it oculd only request money from the states (states had their own currencies which were converted to continental dollars for congress to use). Of course, the states seldom made payments and it forced congress ot depreciate the dollar.el retorno de los sapos said:
el retorno
Member
GaimeGuy said:
Ok glad to see I wasn´t imagening things or drawing conclusions out of thin air.
I just don´t see europe though as federalist. There are way to many languages, cultures, economies, distrust, history to make it last IMO. At least right now. I do think in the future it will be better though since things like the Euramus program are creating a new type of generation.
I just think the EU moved way to fast, epecially into the monitary union. They thought bringing and tying all the countries would prevent war and promote cooperation but I think by moving to fast they provoked the distrust and eurosceptics.
Yep. It was too hasty, and not enough care was given into making sure countires that were allowed in were "ready" for it.el retorno de los sapos said:
It should have started out as limited to the scandinavian countries and the major european powers (mainly france, germany, and the UK).
The euro in particular needed to be handled with more care.
fortified_concept
Banned
Bento said:
If by fiscal responsibility you mean the pillaging of their natural resources through debt extortion, yes, it is rather sad. But that would happen anyway since debt is only the excuse, the real reason is corruption of politicians that agree to that extortion. And btw if fiscal responsibility results in that quality of life for the population I'd prefer it if the whole world was fiscally irresponsible.
Learn2read
Member
No we wouldn't, that's really at the heart of the matter.TedNindo said:
RukusProvider
Banned
I'm in Florence on vacation right now (last day). So far, no one is showing any signs of stress. Does the general population just not care?
JzeroT1437
Member
So...if I'm going on a European vacation in about a month, would this be the ideal time to buy Euros?
RukusProvider said:
I think it's just too soon to see consequences of what will actually happen in real life.
Not that there isn't a crisis here, but I think it's just that...and also that not everyone care for now.
However, in Media Create charts the old Dragona (XD) used to post a chart of how much fucked Wii was.
Let's see if I find it, so we can put Italy on it.
el retorno
Member
GaimeGuy said:
Eh I don´t think that would have worked either. Promotes division. They should have made the EU between the same states but just not have expanded its powers as rapidly. Started out like an arab league or OAS and as all the countries were ready for more power they could have expanded it. They could have always done bilateral things on the side.
Sure, but neither claim makes sense at all. I mean, those Spanish exclaves have been Spanish (or Portuguese) for over half a millennium.clemenx said:National pride goes a long way. Couldn't you say the same about Falkland islands? If you said that to an Argentinian that feels strongly about them they would punch you in the face
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Best outcome is for the Euro to disappear, let countries use their own currencies, as they should.
That's the best remedy. No reason for everyone to try to save each other's ass when they can't do it anyway on anything else than a short time frame, and when it means more suffering over the longer term.
This feels like WWII, except the destruction is happening only in paper.
That's the best remedy. No reason for everyone to try to save each other's ass when they can't do it anyway on anything else than a short time frame, and when it means more suffering over the longer term.
This feels like WWII, except the destruction is happening only in paper.
So, if the Euro *were* to fall, what'd be the *mechanics* of it? What would happen to people's investments in Euros, what would happen to the actual coins and notes, and how would countries go about starting to print and distribute their own currency again?
Weird random thought: Could a country 'steal' the Euro? That is, everyone else drops out in principle and starts printing their own money, but one country stays in, technically, and continues to only trade in Euros. Surely that means any established Euros in other countries could only be spent trading with that one country?
I'll admit, this is only a vague understanding by learning about countries going off the gold standard in the run up to WW2, but the principle seems roughly the same.
Weird random thought: Could a country 'steal' the Euro? That is, everyone else drops out in principle and starts printing their own money, but one country stays in, technically, and continues to only trade in Euros. Surely that means any established Euros in other countries could only be spent trading with that one country?
I'll admit, this is only a vague understanding by learning about countries going off the gold standard in the run up to WW2, but the principle seems roughly the same.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Greedy bastard bankers and shitty politicians are going to ruin Europe. Even Scandinavia will be devastated by this. The situation is of course fucking up the poor and middle class like always.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Beam said:
That can't be a good solution for the longer term, it will be employed over the short term until it backfires so hard that governments will have to take action to support the middle class.
This is 10000000% certain. For how long governments will pretend otherwise is the only variable here.
Unwinding the Euro would involve dissolving or reorganizing the ECB. The path for any individual country to move off the Euro would mean the re-establishment of national sovereignty over currency creation and trade; this is, necessarily, dilution of the ECB's monetary functions.mclem said:
There are two ways forward from there: Either the Eurozone continues without the countries that have left, or the Eurozone is entirely dissolved and all countries must reclaim sole sovereignty over currency. If the first happens then the ECB in some form must persist and no country may "hijack" the Euro. Countries outside the Euro could, I think, peg their new drachma or lira or whatever to the Euro, much as some Central and South American countries have pegged their currency to the dollar; they would not have any control over the expansion or contraction of the money supply, though. If the second happens then the ECB's monetary functions would be disbanded unless all the countries agreed, for some insane reason, to let one country confiscate it ( I can't imagine it happening). If the ECB goes then existing Euros become dead paper EXCEPT by the policy of the individual countries leaving the Euro to exchange the old Euro for the new franc and mark at exchange rates likely set by the governments and for a set length of time; they would do this to conserve wealth from the old system to the new. No new Euros could legally be produced under the backing of the ECB (since it wouldn't exist) and any country trying to print Nu-Euros or forgeries would get huge pushback from the countries guaranteeing a stable Euro exchange rate because it would essentially represent transfer of wealth from the countries with new currencies to the country pirating the Euro.
Loonz
Member
Oozinator said:
Spain's demise would be rather bad for your country, as Spain is one of the (if not the) biggest investors in Morocco. And as for Ceuta & Melilla, they've been Spanish enclaves hundreds of years before Morocco even existed. People there want to be part of Spain and abide by Spanish laws, as well as receive civil rights guaranteed by Spain's Constitution. This issue is quite more complex than you think.
Ether_Snake said:
I don't know whether it's the best outcome, but it's probably what's going to happen. The EU is giving a pathetic image, is unable to solve the littlest of the problems let alone this huge debt issue. I would even say that if the Euro currency is going to break that could lead to huge tensions in the EU itself. I'm not optimistic about this.
I see the sad state of our politicians in Spain and it's hard to see how this so called "elite" is going to manage to get us through the effing crisis, hopefully they can (I've never voted for the party that currently governs the country, BTW). The only reason we are doing less bad than the italians right now in the debt markets is because we have elections next Nov 20th, and international investors are expecting to see a political change. In Italy, apart from Berlusconi, what are the choices?. To lead the economic recovery I mean.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Sure the best would be for the euro to remain, but only if it could actually realistically work out, and it can't. The EU isn't a country, so imposing the same currency on everyone reduces everyone's ability to take actions that are in their best interest when crisises occur, such as this one, which then leads to a greater burden to be shared by all of the EU.
It's a terrible idea to have a common currency among various countries. If the EU was one country, fine, but it's not, and it cannot be in the foreseeable future. If you want to limit the spread of the damage, you need to allow countries in crisis to operate on their own to the full extent of their abilities, and with a common currency you cannot do this.
If Greece had just defaulted day one, we'd be better off over the longer term. Right now they are just making the car crash play in slow motion.
It's a terrible idea to have a common currency among various countries. If the EU was one country, fine, but it's not, and it cannot be in the foreseeable future. If you want to limit the spread of the damage, you need to allow countries in crisis to operate on their own to the full extent of their abilities, and with a common currency you cannot do this.
If Greece had just defaulted day one, we'd be better off over the longer term. Right now they are just making the car crash play in slow motion.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
This is the most pathetic post I've seen in a while.Oozinator said:
As much as I dislike your goverment I don't wish any ill on the Moroccan people. Quite the contrary, since the betterment of the country would lead to less immigration and more political progress. But hey, keep chugging on the hatorade, that sure has worked beautiful so far.
Loonz
Member
Acidote said:
Fixed
.I have to confess I have no idea about that supposed fishing issue. As for what Oozinator says about trade restrictions, well, plenty of countries outside the EU have them. That's nothing new. Not that I say that's fair, in fact I am totally against that kind of policies (but discussing this would further derail the thread).
Rourkey said:
Note quite. Ceuta was part of Portugal(go check their flag) in 1415 and then to Spain in 1640ish (after the union broke, Ceuta was filled with so many Spaniards that it's the only Portuguese colony to have sided with Spain). Ceuta was never actually part of Morocco since Morocco is a relatively recent nation. Gibraltar on the other hand was always part of Spain until the 1700s. Ceuta was integrated into Spain before some of it's regions.
You lose some, you win some.
Fusion Pizza
Member
Ether_Snake said:
Thanks for explaining, Economics makes my brain fry.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
The UK violates the Treaty of Utrecht every other day, though. And I'm not talking about that funny clause about not allowing jews to take residence in the rockRourkey said:Fine just interested!
Right now our biggest issue with Gibraltar is that it's an unassailable tax haven and money laundering machine that operates with the complicit blessing of the British government. It has become the de jour financial destination for eastern european syndicates and unsavoury characters of all kinds.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Oozinator said:
Yeah, we are such a terrible country. So terrible in fact your youth is beating each other for a chance to come.
But don't worry, we're taking good care of them. Here they learn how awesome wine, beer, ham and bacon are. Bit unsighty to watch'em drunk on the streets, it's like they never had alcohol before.
Sickboy007
Member
Mario Monti was just appointed by President Napolitano senator for life. Seems like the technocratic government is getting closer. And thank god for that, another electoral campaign in the middle of the crisis, with the shadow of Berlusconi looming would have been a disaster.
speculawyer
Member
There is no one big enough and willing to bail-out Italy.cyberheater said:
Loonz
Member
Ether_Snake said:
Good post. And quite right. If the debt crisis shows us something, it's how far from the USA model we are. We've tried and failed. We can't be a federal state because we don't share the same homogeneous culture americans have. This economic failure will probably have consequences in the EU as it shows that many of its objectives are not achievable in the near future, perhaps never.
It's possible that as a result of inability to solve problems the EU shatters in some years' time. Right now I see it as a redundant institution, something more for the sake of the political class (as they perceive huge salaries from it, and feel that they do something), than for the real citizens of the continent. The only 2 really good things that came out of it IMO are the freedom of circulation for EU citizens within its borders and the Schengen treaty.
- Status