Support NeoGAF

[Loonz]

Mario Monti was just appointed by President Napolitano senator for life. Seems like the technocratic government is getting closer. And thank god for that, another electoral campaign in the middle of the crisis, with the shadow of Berlusconi looming would have been a disaster.

If that's true, well, good for you fellow italians. I think in this grave economic situation a technocratic government (akin to China or Singapore but with human and civil rights) would probably work better than the typical democracy. Hope the best for you guys.

 

[Mpl90]

Mario Monti was just appointed by President Napolitano senator for life. Seems like the technocratic government is getting closer. And thank god for that, another electoral campaign in the middle of the crisis, with the shadow of Berlusconi looming would have been a disaster.

It seems we only needed our money to be in trouble to accelerate everything.
Now the mega-emendament could be ready not in two weeks as originally decided, but on Sunday.
Finally something is moving on.

 

[Sickboy007]

If that's true, well, good for you fellow italians. I think in this grave economic situation a technocratic government (akin to China or Singapore but with human and civil rights) would probably work better than the typical democracy. Hope the best for you guys.

Well we are a parliamentary republic so any govern approved by parliament is democratic. Not that it makes much sense given our current electoral law, but that's a whole nother story.

 

[Loonz]

Well we are a parliamentary republic so any govern approved by parliament is democratic. Not that it makes much sense given our current electoral law, but that's a whole nother story.

I didn't mean otherwise, my excuses if that's what it seemed. What I tried to say is that a typical democracy acts too slow, and now we need faster and more decisive decision making. Just that. I hope our current politicians understand that as well.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Good post. And quite right. If the debt crisis shows us something, it's how far from the USA model we are. We've tried and failed. We can't be a federal state because we don't share the same homogeneous culture americans have. This economic failure will probably have consequences in the EU as it shows that many of its objectives are not achievable in the near future, perhaps never.

It's possible that as a result of inability to solve problems the EU shatters in some years' time. Right now I see it as a redundant institution, something more for the sake of the political class (as they perceive huge salaries from it, and feel that they do something), than for the real citizens of the continent. The only 2 really good things that came out of it IMO are the freedom of circulation for EU citizens within its borders and the Schengen treaty.

Do you think the freedom of mobility across the EU could remain even without a common currency at all?

 

[StuKen]

Do you think the freedom of mobility across the EU could remain even without a common currency at all?

Doubtful given the level of social welfare integration and European court rulings on the matter that have already occurred.

 

[Loonz]

Do you think the freedom of mobility across the EU could remain even without a common currency at all?

No idea. Probably not. But it would be great if at least those 2 things remained, if the situation goes really south I mean.

 

[Sickboy007]

I didn't mean otherwise, my excuses if that's what it seemed. What I tried to say is that a typical democracy acts too slow, and now we need faster and more decisive decision making. Just that. I hope our current politicians understand that as well.

No worries, i was just getting a little technical for people who might not know the system here. I agree completely with what you said, and it actually happened here in italy before. We have a knack for what people here call "emergency mentality".

 

[fortified_concept]

Mario Monti was just appointed by President Napolitano senator for life. Seems like the technocratic government is getting closer. And thank god for that, another electoral campaign in the middle of the crisis, with the shadow of Berlusconi looming would have been a disaster.

Just googled the guy, he's a neoliberal and member of the Bilderberg group. If he's any indication you're royally screwed.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

The UK violates the Treaty of Utrecht every other day, though. And I'm not talking about that funny clause about not allowing jews to take residence in the rock

Right now our biggest issue with Gibraltar is that it's an unassailable tax haven and money laundering machine that operates with the complicit blessing of the British government. It has become the de jour financial destination for eastern european syndicates and unsavoury characters of all kinds.

There is new legislation out today that gives the government power to start collecting taxes in crown dependencies and cut down on tax evasion and fraud. Hopefully it will help in Gibraltar as well.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Do you think the freedom of mobility across the EU could remain even without a common currency at all?

We had it for years before the Euro.

 

[Rourkey]

Looks like Merkel has vetoed a reasonable idea to me...

Angela Merkel has a habit of falling out with people. First, it was the G20 and EU-27 when she refused to let the European Central Bank resolve the eurozone debt crisis by stepping in with a huge bond-buying programme or even some quantitative easing as, say, Irish finance minister Michael Noonan is demanding.

Now she's fallen out with her "expert council" or "economic wise men" who today proposed a "European Redemption or Settlement Pact" instead of ECB intervention. This would see eurozone countries with a debt-to-GDP-ratio above the Maastricht ceiling of 60% (most of them) put the over-the-limit amount into a redemption fund with shared guarantees. Wolfgang Franz, the council's head, said strict procedures would see this fund dissolve itself in 20 to 25 years along with all outstanding debt.

Too much for Merkel -- who slapped the idea down immediately as Franz handed over their autumn report which, by the way, foresees German growth next year sliding below 1%. This, she said, would require a huge number of treaty changes. Ha: we thought she wants treaty change...Well, she does but not that amount...Merkel is more interested in enabling posses of witchfinder-generals to impose German-style fiscal rigour and budgetary surveillance on sinner states such as the PIIGS and even, eventually, France once the spendthrift socialists are back in power....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/blog/2011/nov/09/greece-prime-minister-italy-berlusconi-resigns

 

[fortified_concept]

Merkel works for the banks, the only thing that's surprising about this story is that people are surprised by her behavior.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

HOLY SHIT!

RUMOUR: GERMANY MOVES TO INTRODUCE RULES TO EXPEL MEMBERS FROM THE EURO BUT STAY IN THE EU!

This is the solution then, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Greece out of the Euro, France will follow once their banking liabilities are properly exposed and the losses kill their borrowing rates.

It is unclear right now, I just got a rumour in a text, apparently Handelsblatt have it as well.

 

[speculawyer]

I like how we agonize over Greece for months and then BLAMMO! Italy is going to default and bring the whole show down. It seems like all that positioning over Greece was just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

[Wazzim]

HOLY SHIT!

RUMOUR: GERMANY MOVES TO INTRODUCE RULES TO EXPEL MEMBERS FROM THE EURO BUT STAY IN THE EU!

This is the solution then, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Greece out of the Euro, France will follow once their banking liabilities are properly exposed and the losses kill their borrowing rates.

It is unclear right now, I just got a rumour in a text, apparently Handelsblatt have it as well.

We better start tomorrow morning then, no time to lose.

 

[Kurtofan]

HOLY SHIT!

RUMOUR: GERMANY MOVES TO INTRODUCE RULES TO EXPEL MEMBERS FROM THE EURO BUT STAY IN THE EU!

This is the solution then, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Greece out of the Euro, France will follow once their banking liabilities are properly exposed and the losses kill their borrowing rates.

It is unclear right now, I just got a rumour in a text, apparently Handelsblatt have it as well.

France out of the Euro, yeah right.

 

[alstein]

I like how we agonize over Greece for months and then BLAMMO! Italy is going to default and bring the whole show down. It seems like all that positioning over Greece was just re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

The Greek mess was what toppled Italy.

It all comes back in the end to extreme global laissez-faire capitalism at the roots. The only way we solve that is by a lot of rich people going broke and the system breaking. It's time for the rich to learn some responsibility.

If France leaves the Euro, Germany might as well call the Euro the Deutshmark because almost no non-German will use it. Also, you'll see anger towards Germany not seen since WWII.

Merkel's ruining her own country with her greed.

I really think Obama should threaten to pull our German bases over this.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

France out of the Euro, yeah right.

I remember people saying "Euro, break up? Yeah right!"

 

[forknknife]

If it's for the best of the people, fuck the euro, but I really hope this doesn't worsen the relations between future former eu countries. On the other hand, I don't trust rumors, so we'll see.

 

[Tacitus_]

HOLY SHIT!

RUMOUR: GERMANY MOVES TO INTRODUCE RULES TO EXPEL MEMBERS FROM THE EURO BUT STAY IN THE EU!

This is the solution then, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Greece out of the Euro, France will follow once their banking liabilities are properly exposed and the losses kill their borrowing rates.

It is unclear right now, I just got a rumour in a text, apparently Handelsblatt have it as well.

I'm all for kicking Italy and Greece out of the euro but how credible this rumour of yours is?

 

[Funky Papa]

The Greek mess was what toppled Italy.

It all comes back in the end to extreme global laissez-faire capitalism at the roots. The only way we solve that is by a lot of rich people going broke and the system breaking. It's time for the rich to learn some responsibility.

If France leaves the Euro, Germany might as well call the Euro the Deutshmark because almost no non-German will use it. Also, you'll see anger towards Germany not seen since WWII.

Merkel's ruining her own country with her greed.

I really think Obama should threaten to pull our German bases over this.

Yup. Even if this ends being BS, Merkel is playing with fire. Spain has been a very Germanophile country and a reliable ally for decades (one could argue that long before the EU), but Merkel has soured things really fucking fast.

 

[alstein]

Why can't all the other countries instead band together and kick Germany from the Euro, then stick tarriffs on them so high they have to deal?

 

[Funky Papa]

Why can't all the other countries instead band together and kick Germany from the Euro, then stick tarriffs on them so high they have to deal?

That would be hilarious.

And by hilarious, I mean PCP+MDMA funny.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I'm all for kicking Italy and Greece out of the euro but how credible this rumour of yours is?

So far I have one source from within the BoE, reliable. I think one German newspaper has been briefed by the Bundesbank. If it is the Bundesbank driving the additional rules then it is pretty much rock solid. Merkel can't stand up to the Bundesbank and win. It's not going to happen.

Why can't all the other countries instead band together and kick Germany from the Euro, then stick tarriffs on them so high they have to deal?

Well that's the other idea that Germany will just leave, but without Germany the EMU doesn't really mean very much since they are the driving force behind the Euro (even though they are a massive roadblock to an easy reprieve right now).

 

[Evlar]

Why can't all the other countries instead band together and kick Germany from the Euro, then stick tarriffs on them so high they have to deal?

Because private investors and large trading partners outside the continent (US, China) would side with Germany.

 

[Mpl90]

HOLY SHIT!

RUMOUR: GERMANY MOVES TO INTRODUCE RULES TO EXPEL MEMBERS FROM THE EURO BUT STAY IN THE EU!

This is the solution then, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Greece out of the Euro, France will follow once their banking liabilities are properly exposed and the losses kill their borrowing rates.

It is unclear right now, I just got a rumour in a text, apparently Handelsblatt have it as well.

So... would it be better for Italy or not?
Not that I'm saying we'll not suffer. Whatever happenes, we'll suffer for years. I want only to know if we'll suffer a lot, or AN AWFULLY LOT.

 

[alstein]

Because private investors and large trading partners outside the continent (US, China) would side with Germany.

Germany could crash without an export market though. If Germans think they're immune to this, they're going to be sadly mistaken.

 

[Wazzim]

So... would it be better for Italy or not?
Not that I'm saying we'll not suffer. Whatever happenes, we'll suffer for years. I want only to know if we'll suffer a lot, or AN AWFULLY LOT.

Don't worry, you can always move here and steal our women.

 

[Evlar]

Germany could crash without an export market though. If Germans think they're immune to this, they're going to be sadly mistaken.

Germany knows they need export markets; that's why they've been trying to prop this thing up for two years.

I don't agree with much of what Frankfurt has done in response to this crisis, but I don't think anyone could credibly say they've intended smash the Euro.

 

[Sickboy007]

So... would it be better for Italy or not?
Not that I'm saying we'll not suffer. Whatever happenes, we'll suffer for years. I want only to know if we'll suffer a lot, or AN AWFULLY LOT.

It would be infinitely worse in the short and middle term, and pretty much an unknown in the long term. Plus it's not like Germany can change EU rules on a whim, and doing it right now would be criminally irresponsible. I'm all for a mechanism to VOLUNTARILY exit the eurozone (not expel), but reforming this kind of things now would be catastrophic. I don't believe it.

 

[el retorno]

Yup. Even if this ends being BS, Merkel is playing with fire. Spain has been a very Germanophile country and a reliable ally for decades (one could argue that long before the EU), but Merkel has soured things really fucking fast.

I´m not even european but Merkel seems to just be a jerk through this whole thing. Its all about germany. Everything she has done is pretty much ONLY for Germany. And everybody needs to be like germany.

 

[Tacitus_]

I´m not even european but Merkel seems to just be a jerk through this whole thing. Its all about germany. Everything she has done is pretty much ONLY for Germany. And everybody needs to be like germany.

We wouldn't be having this crisis if everybody was like Germany.

 

[Acidote]

Yup, those decisions are creating some sort of animosity towards Germany (as a state, not towards the Germans) I've never seen in my whole life in Spain.

 

[Funky Papa]

We wouldn't be having this crisis if everybody was like Germany.

You mean investing like mad in horribly missmanaged countries and then freaking out on you when shit hits the fan?

We need reforms and strenght, not some duchess trying to run the show and acting all indignant.

 

[Forsete]

Sweden should bail out while we are ahead. Join up with Norway (in fact, they can annex us if they want.. I want a pension in the future!)

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

The UK violates the Treaty of Utrecht every other day, though. And I'm not talking about that funny clause about not allowing jews to take residence in the rock

Right now our biggest issue with Gibraltar is that it's an unassailable tax haven and money laundering machine that operates with the complicit blessing of the British government. It has become the de jour financial destination for eastern european syndicates and unsavoury characters of all kinds.

Is that part true?

 

[Enkidu]

Sweden should bail out while we are ahead. Join up with Norway (in fact, they can annex us if they want.. I want a pension in the future!)

How exactly would we bail out? We're not in the Euro and how would leaving the EU somehow put us in a better position? Isn't the fear that if the Euro crashes then our exports will take a massive hit, so I don't think we can do more than hope for the best at this point.

 

[Funky Papa]

Is that part true?

We've been pressuring the UK about that for the longest time and their response was always "nah-nah, ask Gibraltar, they are autonomous". And of course, Gibraltar laughed at your face, since much of their economy depends on offshore banking.

Right now Gibraltar is not officially a tax haven as there is a treaty that allows to share information with Spain when we open an investigation linked to any account there, but by the time that information arrives, chances are that everybody has packed and is doing business elsewhere or through a different shell corporation.

We had the same problem with Andorra, but things are getting better, apparently.

 

[Forsete]

How exactly would we bail out? We're not in the Euro and how would leaving the EU somehow put us in a better position? Isn't the fear that if the Euro crashes then our exports will take a massive hit, so I don't think we can do more than hope for the best at this point.

I like to watch the world burn.. Thats all.

No, I wasn't serious. Though, having access to Norways saved up monies would be nice, considering our generation will get a shittacular pension, if things keep heading in the current direction.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

More on the rumour:

"You'll still call it the euro, but it will be fewer countries."

Reuters quoting an unknown German government source.

Also, France:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/11/09/uk-french-debt-idUKLNE7A803D20111109

This is what I have been going on about for so long. If Southern Europe leaved the Euro, France follows them out because France have debts denominated in Euros and suddenly these assets they have are all going to be priced in worthless Drachma, Lira and Pesetas. Without Euros coming in France will have to buy them on the open market with highly inflated currencies not worth anything which means real losses at banks.

Britain and Germany have similar problems, but with just $100bn in debts for the UK banks and $150bn in debts for German banks, they will be able to stand up to losses. French banks can't stand up to $950bn worth of loans (private and public) to GISP nations. Either they go bankrupt or France follows them out and prints money to inflate their debts away like UK/US.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Yup, those decisions are creating some sort of animosity towards Germany (as a state, not towards the Germans) I've never seen in my whole life in Spain.

Wait till you see the reaction of the German politicians when Germany's economy ends up in the dump.

We will soon see a rise of nationalism everywhere in Europe, again. Too obvious not to happen. When the economy crashes, the wheel turns.

 

[la_briola]

Wait till you see the reaction of the German politicians when Germany's economy ends up in the dump.

We will soon see a rise of nationalism everywhere in Europe, again.

come on...

 

[maniac-kun]

You mean investing like mad in horribly missmanaged countries and then freaking out on you when shit hits the fan?

We need reforms and strenght, not some duchess trying to run the show and acting all indignant.

I didnt vote for Angela Merkel

 

[Zaraki_Kenpachi]

So who's left in the Euro then? Wouldn't that still fuck over Germany since apparently they are doing so well because of how weak the euro is? Wouldn't the value of the euro shoot up really high effectively cutting them pretty bad also?

 

[Wazzim]

Wait till you see the reaction of the German politicians when Germany's economy ends up in the dump.

We will soon see a rise of nationalism everywhere in Europe, again. Too obvious not to happen. When the economy crashes, the wheel turns.

WWIII, it's always because of Europe lol.

 

[Ether_Snake]

come on...

Every politician who says "our country first" will see gains. This will be the common tune across Europe.

 

[Speedymanic]

More on the rumour:

"You'll still call it the euro, but it will be fewer countries."

Reuters quoting an unknown German government source.

Also, France:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/11/09/uk-french-debt-idUKLNE7A803D20111109

This is what I have been going on about for so long. If Southern Europe leaved the Euro, France follows them out because France have debts denominated in Euros and suddenly these assets they have are all going to be priced in worthless Drachma, Lira and Pesetas. Without Euros coming in France will have to buy them on the open market with highly inflated currencies not worth anything which means real losses at banks.

Britain and Germany have similar problems, but with just $100bn in debts for the UK banks and $150bn in debts for German banks, they will be able to stand up to losses. French banks can't stand up to $950bn worth of loans (private and public) to GISP nations. Either they go bankrupt or France follows them out and prints money to inflate their debts away like UK/US.

Apologies if you've already covered this, but why does the UK have so little debt in comparison to France or even Germany?

 

[zomgbbqftw]

So who's left in the Euro then? Wouldn't that still fuck over Germany since apparently they are doing so well because of how weak the euro is? Wouldn't the value of the euro shoot up really high effectively cutting them pretty bad also?

Yup. Keeping the weak nations in the Euro makes some kind of sense for Germany, but I suspect they have been asked to foot a $2tn bill today and at that point the appreciation of a NE Euro may be worth the trouble of extra unemployment and deflation.

 

[maniac-kun]

WWIII, it's always because of Europe lol.

The Germans have to start WWIII thats tradition.