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'I've been struggling with it': George RR Martin on The Winds of Winter
- Thread starter bitbydeath
- Start date
DunDunDunpachi
Banned
More like "milking it". He just released a prequel book.
HagglesworthMD
Member
Took me a year to listen to the entire audiobook series on my commute to work. This was directly after season 1 of the show finished and I could never watch any subsequent episodes after that.
I gave up hope of him ever finishing the book series, I honestly think he is going to be dead before anything conclusive is released.
I gave up hope of him ever finishing the book series, I honestly think he is going to be dead before anything conclusive is released.
pr0cs
Member
When I think how much my life has changed since Dance was released it really puts in perspective how long its been since he's written anything in the series storyline.
Disappointed that the show will likely spoil the end for me but I figure it's the closest we'll get to knowing what actually happens to the characters
Disappointed that the show will likely spoil the end for me but I figure it's the closest we'll get to knowing what actually happens to the characters
JimiNutz
Banned
I started the first book a few years back assuming that book six would be soon finished and that book seven would be ready for release soon after I had finished reading through them all.
Glad I stopped half way through book one as this would be incredibly frustrating.
The fact that he's even talking about writing other books before he finishes the series is insulting to all those loyal readers that followed the narrative this far already.
Glad I stopped half way through book one as this would be incredibly frustrating.
The fact that he's even talking about writing other books before he finishes the series is insulting to all those loyal readers that followed the narrative this far already.
Duallusion
Member
You're not gonna live forever, George. Not to mention how growing old affects you(r writing)...
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Kadayi
Banned
Same old BS as before. Dude should have focussed on finishing ASOIAF first and then worried about making his "researchers" from Westeros.org rich with the History books they co-authored afterwards. If one ever wants to know why his productivity turned to shit and his storyline became needlessly complicated, you only need to look at when those two pedants inveigled themselves in his life.
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KonradLaw
Member
Understatement of the century 
He's likelly never going to finish it, so I'm glad for HBO show, because it will give me some closure at least.
I'm not surprised he's struggling though. He never was a fast writer and most of all, attempting to create something of this complexity while being discovery writer was always going to be utterly insane idea.
The dude really screwed fantasy genre for me. These days it's extremely rare for me to pick up any fantasy series that's not finished.
He's likelly never going to finish it, so I'm glad for HBO show, because it will give me some closure at least.
I'm not surprised he's struggling though. He never was a fast writer and most of all, attempting to create something of this complexity while being discovery writer was always going to be utterly insane idea.
The dude really screwed fantasy genre for me. These days it's extremely rare for me to pick up any fantasy series that's not finished.
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Sorcerer
Member
Whats amazing to me is each book in the series is nearly as long as the entire "Lord of Rings". Tolkien got his story done in 1200 pages. Yet George has so much content, keeps introducing new characters, its turned into such a sprawling mess that even if he had the ambition to wrap it up could he really? Supposedly were are looking at 3000 more pages. A monstrous 1500 pages each for the next 2 books. I don't think he can do it, whatever happens in the shows final season must be an extremely truncated take on what George really intended. Nah, he wont finish it, assuming book 6 even comes out next year, it will probably be another decade at least before George finishes book 7. I guess he feels the fans have the show and probably lost any ambition. He gets paid either way. If anything, even if he passes before book 7, it will be ghostwritten but obviously it will just be based on the show, just to get the series done.
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V1LÆM
Gold Member
gave up caring to be honest. once the show ends then that's it for me.
same. i wanted to read the kingkiller chronicles but the last book came out in 2011 same as ADWD. Still nothing for the next book...
why should i waste my time and money if the author can't be assed finishing? i'll go read something else.
same. i wanted to read the kingkiller chronicles but the last book came out in 2011 same as ADWD. Still nothing for the next book...
why should i waste my time and money if the author can't be assed finishing? i'll go read something else.
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Sorcerer
Member
^
Beginning with Feast, he introduces so many new characters (your favorite characters get pushed to the side) you wonder where he is going with the story. And oh my God, how many times is Danery's going to delay going to Westeros? You kind of want to throw Feast and Dance against the wall. Then all of sudden the last 500 pages of Dance pick up and it starts getting good again. Basically a 1500 page slog. I do like Feast in retrospect, but its hard to appreciate coming off Storm of Swords.
Beginning with Feast, he introduces so many new characters (your favorite characters get pushed to the side) you wonder where he is going with the story. And oh my God, how many times is Danery's going to delay going to Westeros? You kind of want to throw Feast and Dance against the wall. Then all of sudden the last 500 pages of Dance pick up and it starts getting good again. Basically a 1500 page slog. I do like Feast in retrospect, but its hard to appreciate coming off Storm of Swords.
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The Bloody-Nine
Member
The first two Kingkiller books are good (although the protagonist's knack for being brilliant at everything is a little annoying). Doesn't sound like Rothfuss is at all bothered about finishing the story, though. The less said about the novella the better.
ArnoldSewerby
Member
A few years ago I wouldn't believe I'd say it but I don't think I even care about the books now, looking forward to the last TV season to get some closure
He didn't ruin shit for me. If anything he helped me realize not to trust creators with my time investment in their shitty saga. Nowhere has that ever turned out well. The whole Metal Gear saga was dissapointment, going up and down the hype train only to get given bullshit on a platter. Same with anime, I followed Bleach from early teens into adulthood and got the shittest ending imaginable. Authors are free to do this, because we invest in them. Fuck that, I'll wait till your shitty saga is over and then binge it and decide whether it's any good, rather than wait around for an unfinished or lackluster ending. Until then, there are more than enough short stories.
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
I honestly thought he died 3 years ago
Doom85
Member
Wait, I'm just now hearing he was wasting time on GOT history books? Dude, seriously, prioritize. I know writers should write for themselves and readers shouldn't feel entitled to their work or anything but when an author starts focusing on books within the same canon while the main series of said canon is unfinished, that does feel like a middle finger. I mean, Robert Jordan did write a prequel book while Wheel of Time wasn't yet finished, but when he passed away he had half of the remaining book (that was then split into 3 books as it was that huge) finished, 20 notebooks filled with details about the last book, and had told his wife the entire ending. So even thought he did shift a little focus from his primary series, he still had everything set to be finished even if he passed away prematurely which he did.
Martin also just has to learn to stop being such a perfectionist. I remember hearing about a meeting with him and Stephen King and how King explained he has to write so many words per day (because he can just edit/re-work it later) and Martin acted like this was unfathomable. I feel like Martin doesn't understand the concept of a first draft, like he feels he has to almost nail it on his first go. With that sort of mindset, I honestly have doubts we'll ever see the final book published within his lifetime.
Martin also just has to learn to stop being such a perfectionist. I remember hearing about a meeting with him and Stephen King and how King explained he has to write so many words per day (because he can just edit/re-work it later) and Martin acted like this was unfathomable. I feel like Martin doesn't understand the concept of a first draft, like he feels he has to almost nail it on his first go. With that sort of mindset, I honestly have doubts we'll ever see the final book published within his lifetime.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
It was originally meant to be just three books.
'A Game of Thrones'
'Dance with Dragons'
'Winds of Winter'
A lot changed.
-Minsc-
Member
Penny-arcade introduced me to kingkiller, shortly before the second books release. Figured the final one would be out by now. For it I'll casually check in every year or two and see if the main series gets completed. If so, I'll buy and read. If not, tough luck Pat. As long as the book is released and a competent story I'll be content.
Having observed over the past decade+ I can see how the internet has helped allow a bad dynamic to form between creators and consumers. Too much connection with the fans can be a hindrance.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
it is funny people hammering this guy to know what happens next. it's all made up! he can't do this forever! all the additional pressure of people asking him when it's done is just making it harder for him to work i bet, he is second-guessing everything now, cos the entire world is foaming at the mouth for it.
i enjoy the tv show but haven't read the books tbh. i may one day, but for now i read primary texts and books on Medieval history, which i find even more crazy and interesting than the fictional stuff.
i enjoy the tv show but haven't read the books tbh. i may one day, but for now i read primary texts and books on Medieval history, which i find even more crazy and interesting than the fictional stuff.
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jadedm17
Member
.... Yea, that's the weight, your comment is the literal pressure of millions of people having an opinion for one man to execute.
I'd love more of my fandoms - like a decent Ninja Turtle game - but they owe us nothing in my opinion. I've enjoyed the ride but if it had to end today I'd accept it.
I'm still waiting for TOOL too but it's their vision not mine and they can do what they want with it.
Kadayi
Banned
TBH I'm over it. I just think it's a crying shame that the conclusion to his opus will be delivered to our TV screens next April and not in hardback., but at the end of the day that's on GRRM. Despite having read the books in truth I think his writing went largely off the rails after a Storm of Swords and both a Feast for Crows and a Dance with Dragons were turgid shit that meandered all over the place to little effect. I stand by what I said. As soon as Martin got in cahoots with the gruesome twosome at westeros.org and their schemes to monetize off of him, his productivity rate dropped notably as did the quality of his writing. At the end of the day, it is what it is. Mayhap there's a chance that Martin will eventually wrap up the book version of the series himself, but by then most people will have moved on.
Dargor
Member
Thats book 4 and 5 right? I'm not good at remembering the books names.
So, IIRC, Martin said at some point that they were supposed to be one book, but it got so fucking huge that he decided to split it. Thats ok, thing is, when he just split the book in half he thought that too many characters would be ending in cliffhangers, he didn't want people waiting for the next book on that leg, so instead he divided the books by regions. One focuses on south westeros, the other on the north/meeren.
IMHO, I do agree they are the worst in the series (still really good books though) for that reason. Because he divided the books that way, you end up reading alot of chapters from the same character to close to one another, so they (the books) have this sameish taste, while the other books are way more diverse, since you are reading from way more characters perspectives.
Kadayi
Banned
You're correct it's the last two books, and that for the most part they cross over each other in terms of timeline, up until around the 2/3rds part of a Dance with Dragons which actually advances the story onward. Whereas the original book was written from the viewpoint of a small number of characters (Ned, Jon, Arya, Sansa, Bran, Tyrion, Daenerys & Catelyn) as the series progressed a couple of new viewpoints were added (Jamie, Davos, Theon & Samwell) but suddenly with AFFC & ADWD Martin threw in 12 more characters (some familiar, some less so) and that's when things really gum up in terms of actual narrative progress.
There's actually a highly recommended suggested reading order for the various chapters out there: -
http://boiledleather.com/post/25902554148/a-new-readerfriendly-combined-reading-order-for-a
but in truth at the end of the day even if stick a hat on a pig, it's still a pig. I think the fandom puts a brave face on matters because the sunk cost bias is strong with them when it comes to their investment in the book series in terms of time, money and emotions, but the fetid bloat is there for everyone to see. Much like Tarantino what Martin requires is someone to come in with a strong hand and help him focus his output down to the essentials versus letting it spiral out of control and direction as his sycophants have.
pel1300
Member
Man....there was already so much worldbuilding...why did GRRM paint himself into a corner by doing more and more world building?
It's like how Lost kept adding more mystery constantly before even answering questions we had since the 1st episode.
Dargor
Member
Honestly, the problem with those books in my opinion has nothing to do with worldbuilding. Its just a slog to read them lol. I would even dare to say that there is almost no worldbuilding at all in them. Almost eveything in it was already known, they just don't go anywhere for the most part. Its like Martin wanted to do an exposition experiment. How much useless stuff can I prattle on about without my readers killing me lol?
And its like
Sorcerer
says in his post, only the last stretch of book 5 actually progresses stuff.
Bolivar687
Banned
^ it's the travelogues. In AGoT, Catelyn takes a ship to King's Landing almost entirely offscreen, but you visit every little town in the Crownlands with Breinne and every inch of the Rhoine with Tyrion in ADwD.
I like going over the details of Feast and Dance on rereads but the stories go so wide that the momentum has slowed to a crawl. We now have multiple POVs breaking down Dorne, the Iron Islands and the Wall, and some of them are helpful as they break up and go separate ways like the original Winterfell party but I just can't believe it was all necessary. George likens himself to a gardener, who takes care of his stories, waters them, then lets them grow on their own, but I think his drive and excitement for the story and to take the reader to a satisfying conclusion is completely gone. He blamed the 'Meereneese Knot' - what order and how to bring the characters in Mereen together and move them forward - for taking him so long to finish Dance but now we're the same number of years removed from Dance as Dance was from Feast. He's spent way too much time promoting the show and reveling in the stardom.
Neil Gaiman once famously said "George R.R. Martin is not your bitch" but it's been so many years at this point, and we've made him so wealthy, that I think there is some modicum of responsibility to make good on the installments you've already sold us and complete the whole product.
I like going over the details of Feast and Dance on rereads but the stories go so wide that the momentum has slowed to a crawl. We now have multiple POVs breaking down Dorne, the Iron Islands and the Wall, and some of them are helpful as they break up and go separate ways like the original Winterfell party but I just can't believe it was all necessary. George likens himself to a gardener, who takes care of his stories, waters them, then lets them grow on their own, but I think his drive and excitement for the story and to take the reader to a satisfying conclusion is completely gone. He blamed the 'Meereneese Knot' - what order and how to bring the characters in Mereen together and move them forward - for taking him so long to finish Dance but now we're the same number of years removed from Dance as Dance was from Feast. He's spent way too much time promoting the show and reveling in the stardom.
Neil Gaiman once famously said "George R.R. Martin is not your bitch" but it's been so many years at this point, and we've made him so wealthy, that I think there is some modicum of responsibility to make good on the installments you've already sold us and complete the whole product.
Woody Nvincible
Member
George, finish the books. It's what the prince who was promised, Dick Crabb, deserves.
Chairman Tickles
Banned
Unless he plans to live to the ripe old age of 100, this ain't happening. These last few big franchise books can take ~10-15 years to write, per book. He's 70, suppose he can hang on there until ~90. 'Maybe' he can finish 2 more books at best. The one he's working on, and one last one.
Recall by the 9th book in the wheel of time series, there were ~800 main and supporting characters and over 100+ ongoing character arcs, the author died long before he got to finish the saga. Other's had to do it for him.
Recall by the 9th book in the wheel of time series, there were ~800 main and supporting characters and over 100+ ongoing character arcs, the author died long before he got to finish the saga. Other's had to do it for him.
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Shai-Tan
Banned
It happens often in fantasy in almost all of the higher quality writing. I get my dad a lot of fantasy books and some series go 3, 4, 5+ year between entries. There’s a series by JV Jones called A Sword of Shadows on my list to look out for and it’s been 8 years since the last book with the previous enties being 1999, 2002, 2007, 2010. She put off writing the next one for ages with loads of excuses. It seems like if the series is well written that it takes so long that the writers start to lose enthusiasm for writing or get old enough that it starts to get in the way of progress.
Kadayi
Banned
Gaiman can eat as bag of dicks for that overquoted enabling BS. I remember reading that piece and it seemed to me that Gaiman possesses zero comprehension as to why his publisher gives him an advance or where said publishers money comes from. It's the proverbial writer in an Ivory Tower Syndrome sneering on the very people who put him there. There's no sense that he understands social contracts. If you write a book and sell it as the first chapter in a trilogy/series then people are buying it on the basis that there will be further instalments, and that they'd likely expect in a timely fashion. GRRM was pretty consistent in terms of delivery with the books averaging 1 every two years up until ASOS. It's when he hit AFFC that things went off the rails in terms of productivity, and the narrative bloat kicked in.
No ones expected GRRM to be chained to his writing desk, but the truth of the matter is the guy only writes at home on a shitty old DOS PC and basically, despite his constant public Mea Culpa's regarding the delays will still happily grab his cap and head out the door at a moments notice to have his ego stroked at press events and conventions, and its people like Gaiman who have given him carte blanche to do so. I mean his procrastination has become such a joke now: -
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M. Crassus
Member
This is why I really like Brandon Sanderson.