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Jak 2: How do great looking Gamecube games compare to this title?

Speevy

Banned
This is a debate I wanted to settle from another forum.

Someone said that the Cube didn't have anything that compared with the overall visual package of Jak 2. Since I haven't played the game, I could only rely on videos. Unfortuntely, I couldn't come to any conclusions based on that.

For "overall visual package", some great looking Cube games are:

-TWW
-MP
-F-Zero GX
-Pikmin 2
-Starfox Adventures
-Resident Evil

And possibly the Rogue Leader games. If you think of anything else, let me know.

So is the guy right? How do these games stack up with Jak 2?
 

AniHawk

Member
Speevy said:
Well graphics are all I'm concerned about really.

Okay then... In all fairness, the character models were very nicely animated in Jak II. The characters also didn't have that plasticky look which can plague some games with really good graphics. As far as the environments go, the city is detailed, and so are the swamps and other areas. Better than say... Star Fox Adventures though? That's a tough one. I'd go with SFA just because it didn't have the clipping or whatever the hell you call it when it looks like the screen is being seen through the middle of bifocal glasses like Jak II did. Plus, despite how poorly Rare may have handled the gameplay, they're still masters when it comes to graphics.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
gameplay wise, there are games that beat Jak 2

graphics wise, there aren't as many

which game looks better is subjective...especially when you consider that 90% of the games you listed can't even compare to what Jak 2 (tried to) achieve(d)

Resident Evil (discounting 4 for an obvious reason) doesn't compare IMO from a technical standpoint and I don't think it compares otherwise as the limited characters and the way the characters didn't really blend in right with the environment did exactly amaze me...what did was Jill's ass which is one of the best on the GC

Metroid Prime can't compare technically although I can easily see why many would think it trumps Jak2...this game just oozes style and atmosphere.

How is Jet Set Radio Future compared to Ace Combat 4? How the fuck should I know--a comparison like that makes no fucking sense and neither does comparing F Zero to Jak 2

Pikmin 2 I haven't played...though the sheer amount of characters Pikmin 1 throws around and the general polish of the game really impressed me at the time, I'm imagining 2 would be even better so those games might be comparable...though Jak really is more of an environmental showcase (where that little cliff you see miles away you eventually get to run across) they aspire to different goals...but a comparison can probably be made

Star Fox Adventures i'm not touching...my eternal bias against Rare (excluding Conkers...but including Conker's sense of 'humor') would factor in too high...I remember slightly above average levels for a platformer-style game (BUT WITH GRASS) and fur shaded detailed characters that talked like autistic teens and animated poorly compared to Jak 2

Wind Waker - technically: hell no - artistically: IMO yes. then again, I loved sailing around in that game :b
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
In some ways technologically, Jak 2 really is more impressive than at least some of the games you listed there (I haven't seen them all in person so I wouldn't be a good judge)

Jak 2 has the closest I've seen so far to the production quality cartoon 3D animation in it's cutscenes and, they are all realtime. Model detail in those cutscenes is just crazy and so is the animation quality. It has the streaming (no load pauses), very complex modeled world, which runs at 60FPS (with some hickups that produce tearing). There really are scenes where you see so much of the city, and if it happens to be during the night, everything is glowing, searchlights cross the sky in the distance, and you can actually drive anywhere and see all that upclose, every driver and pedestrian has simple AI, and there can be dozens of them at the same time, etc. In other words, the engine is capable to handle a craploads of stuff on the screen. Jak 3 is now adding cloth and rigid and ragdoll physics to all that. It probably doesn't have as good textures as the games you mentioned, though, but it runs at 24bit color, which is something many GC games fail to do.

Your best bet to counter his argument would be Metroid Prime, I think. That game is very polished, has no loading, runs at 60FPS, but it doesn't have the 'go anywhere' sort of thing, I think. Starfox I have never seen in person... does it run at 60FPS?

FF:CC pees all over Jak 2, in art direction, image quality, AND special effects.
Those two are completely different in their scope. I'd bring Champions of Norrath rather than Jak 2 to compare against FF:CC.

Also, has anyone even seen FFXII in person to know if it has jaggy look or not?
 

ourumov

Member
I am playing Billy Hatcher and I am surprised. It has some of the nicest water I have ever seen.
It's not that rapes Jak 2 but well for 10$ I think it looks pretty good.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Well, Jak 2 does look very impressive...but there are plenty of games that stand above it.

Out of those Cube titles you listed, I found

-MP
-Starfox Adventures

...to be somewhat more impressive. SFA is kind of neck and neck, though. SFA has better textures, better models, and more effects in place...but the worlds are much MUCH smaller in scale and there is a lot less going on. The problem with Jak 2 is that the framerate isn't constant. It holds 60 fps in a lot of mission areas, but the game has issues in the city at times. Nothing horrible, but it feels less polished as a result.

I'm not a fan of Jak's art design, but the world is very impressive to behold. Each character in the city is fairly detailed and, although many look alike, there are a TON of them wandering around. The city itself is also quite geometrically dense and large in scope.

The overall visual package, as you say, just isn't that hot. It shines in many areas, but falls short in others. Jak 3 looks a bit more impressive to me (though still very similar) and Ratchet and Clank 2 certainly looks more attractive thanks to a much more consistant framerate.

It most certainly stands up to a lot of the best looking Cube games, but it doesn't exceed them at all. The PS2 isn't even capable of displaying some of the effects you might find in those Cube titles, so that's another issue you have to consider. I wouldn't even consider comparing it to all of those Cube titles listed either. I mean, F-Zero? Come on, that's so different looking. F-Zero is actually rather simplistic looking in a lot of ways, though. Take a look around sometime and you can see just how low-detail most of the environments really are (especially those forest rings).

Really, though, Metroid Prime stands among the most polished games this gen so it's hard to compare anything to it. Everything about it just screams perfection.

I have not seen much of FFCC, to tell you the truth, but I am not suprised that it beats out all of the PS2 FF games. None of them have been technically impressive IMO. I mean, even for the time, FFX had a lot of major problems right out of the gate. There are other, better looking RPGs on PS2 though...just not FF games.

Starfox I have never seen in person... does it run at 60FPS?

Mostly, yes. It also has some screen tearing and slowdown, though not nearly as often as Jak 2. The actual world geometry is fairly simple most of the time, though, but it has very high-res textures and lots of cool effects (the grass and fur effects look excellent, for example). It also has a streaming world, but I recall there being really nasty pauses and skips while moving through a loading point.

I am playing Billy Hatcher and I am surprised. It has some of the nicest water I have ever seen.

It has some nice water and a few cool effects (like the snow), but that's it. Jak 2 murders Billy Hatcher from a technical POV. Jak 2 probably pushes several times as much geometry as BH and is generally much more impressive overall. BH also has a lot of slowdown just like Jak 2...but in this case, it isn't justified. Jak 2 will slowdown when there is like 30+ detailed characters plus a massive city backdrop on the screen...while BH will start sputtering at almost random points. It's a colorful, solid looking game, though...but it can't even begin to compare to even Jak and Daxter let alone Jak 2 or 3. Oh, it also doesn't even try for a LOD approach. It literally just removes all objects from the world until you get near them. Fences, rocks, boxes, and all other detailed objects just aren't present until you reach a certain point...so much of the distant world is just made of flat surfaces.

Here's what the early city section look like... (ignore the high resolution, though).

jak_screen003.jpg


The textures are probably the largest flaw, though they look much better in many other segments (and really, the high-res shot reveals more about them than it should). You can clearly see just how much detail is put into the environments, though. That is consistant as well (the worlds are generally as detailed, if not more so when the camera is showing more of the world).

Star Fox Adventures...

starfox_b2_screen001.jpg


starfox_screen009.jpg


Bleh, it's very hard to find good SFA images that show off the world somewhat. These are two of the best area shots I could find and represent what the world looks like. As you can see, it isn't constructed out of nearly as much geometry, but the textures are much higher in resolution and there are more effects/features present.

Jak 1

jakanddaxter_screen002.jpg


jakanddaxter_screen020.jpg


Even MORE difficult to find good shots for. J&D is the only game being mentioned here that doesn't support progressive scan and, in fact, only runs with a half frame buffer. Still, it is VERY colorful (on an actual TV, not in the shots), runs at a perfect 60 fps, and has a great draw distance. You can see that it has aged quite a bit, of course, but it still looks nice enough.

Billy Hatcher

billy_screen003.jpg


hatcher_screen006.jpg


Once again, too many "zoomed in" shots out there. It's hard to find shots that attempt to show more of the world (while remaining in game). The flaws I mentioned are obvious here. The background detail is very low (low geometry and mediocre textures) and the game has slowdown issues. It looks much cleaner on my TV, though, running in 480p. Very bright and colorful (though you wouldn't know it from these shots).
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Marconelly said:
Cutsecene models and especially animation seems a lot better to me in Jak 2 than it is in SFA. Then again, I've only seen videos of SFA.

Actually, looking at it again, I was mistaken...the models in Jak 2 ARE better than SFA's and the animation is WAY beyond SFA. SFA also has this annoying issue where it seemingly lowers the framerate during cutscenes. However, it isn't a straight 30 fps. It's like the game is still rendering 60 fps, but the actual camera and character motion were sampled lower. It looks REALLY bizarre and, IMO, is quite awful. I don't understand why they did that...

OK, Ratchet and Clank 2 shots...

rc_screen004.jpg


914659_20030616_screen009.jpg


914659_20030616_screen007.jpg


Sadly, almost all of the shots are high-res. I really hate that, as it actually reveals a lot of flaws that you would not otherwise see. The only non-high-res textures on Gamespot are really shitty caps which REALLY don't represent the game (as it does run in 480p). You can see that R&C2 has very high world geometry with tons of stuff going on (OK, perhaps you can't see that in these shots...but it does) and it holds 60 fps almost the entire time (unlike Jak 2).

Textures aren't that hot, though. Then again, they seem to rely more on brute-force geometry detail than textures. Look at the floor in that last shot, a lot of that is fully modelled (and the entire game is kinda like that). I mean, if you had a tiled floor in R&C2, they wouldn't use a tiled texture...they would model all of the tiles and even includes modelled screws to hold each tile down. Pretty nice!
 

Deg

Banned
SFA is nice looking but its not one of the best. small environments, blurry textures, some charqcters not well done, animation and detail lacking etc.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
It boils down that if you are arguing against someone who puts a lot of weigh into things that Jak 2 does really well - like animation, (which I have to repeat, is closest to something like Toy Story being rendered in realtime that I've ever seen), or the overall world complexity - you'll have a hard time convincing him that there's something out there that betters it. Then again, there are games that do other things (much) better, like texture effects and such, that you can see in SFA (fur is basically a texture effect).
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
ourumov said:
03070422.jpg


Billy Hatcher's water is awesome :)

It's very similar to the type in Sonic Heroes and similar styles of water can be found in other games as well. It does look very nice, but it has one major flaw (that is even present in that shot); when the edge of any solid object is set in front of the water (such as that flag in the foreground), it actually distorts that edge. That would look good UNDER water, but not above it. This occurs on everything in the world as well, including the world geometry itself.

The water is the best looking aspect of the visuals IMO. The rest of the world is pretty simple...
 

DSN2K

Member
If JAKII was made from the ground up on GameCube it would be a good amount better looking then the PS2 version.

Starfox character models are alot better imo..

fur7.jpg

2002-02-12-starfoxadventures3.jpg

fur3.jpg
 
DSN2K said:
If JAKII was made from the ground up on GameCube it would be a good amount better looking then the PS2 version.

Doubtful. Unless you're Nintendo, exclusive Gamecube budgets are about 1/5th a PS2 big budget game. You've got to consider the ROI factor for the companies :)
 

Floyd

Member
Star Fox environments look far superior. But only because they are smaller scale. Character models are superior too.

starfoxadventures_052202_3.jpg


sfanewold1.jpg


spacefox1.jpg
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
DSN2K said:
If JAKII was made from the ground up on GameCube it would be a good amount better looking then the PS2 version.

Starfox characters models are alot better imo..

fur7.jpg

2002-02-12-starfoxadventures3.jpg

fur3.jpg

jakii_screen026.jpg


jakii_screen027.jpg


I dunno, I think you are confusing model quality for texture effect quality. The fur shading really helps...

Floyd, those are appealing environment shots, but you can clearly see that they are less complex in terms of geometry...
 

Gattsu25

Banned
meh, my point is - it's pretty easy to say that it would be better if one company developed another company's exclusive title...worthless...but easy

Star Fox's characters are modeled better...but that's where the pros end...the animation is rather poor..and the 'Rare' voices are unbearable...as is the "Let's try to rip off a great Nintendo game's gameplay but do it with our usual bland gameplay added to the mix and really shiny graphics that our games are popular for" Rare formula



also, there are very few (if any) games on any platform that achieve what Jak and R&C set out to do, graphically






the GC and XBox can surely do better jobs when it comes to those areas...they just....haven't
 

snapty00

Banned
The graphics in Billy Hatcher give me a headache for some reason. I can't play the demo for more than 10 minutes without feeling sick. It's just so...ugly, and unalive. I mean, for a kiddie game, you'd think the world would be jumping and hooting, but it feels pretty dead.

That water issue happens in a lot of GameCube games. Right off the top of my head, it also happens in Mario Golf.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
snapty00 said:
That water issue happens in a lot of GameCube games. Right off the top of my head, it also happens in Mario Golf.

It's not a Nintendo exclusive graphical glitch...it also happens in the Dark Cloud series


still...IMO GC water is good looking because blue water is better looking than grey tinfoil
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
It's not a Nintendo exclusive graphical glitch...it also happens in the Dark Cloud series
Personally I would call it an implementation bug - although I suppose it could also be argued as an optimization in certain situations.
It's entirely the result of the order of drawing for the scene - I think it's really bizarre that they do this for the water though... (without going into too much needless explanation, you can observe similar type of "effect" bleeding edges with many(if not most) implementations of Depth of Field, full sceen heat wave, and various other screen processing effects).

It's especially weird to do it like this on GC, where you're doing water with a texture function anyhow... PS2 water stuff is more tricky so there's more room for weirdness...
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Dr.Guru of Peru said:
...

What water "issue" are you people talking about?

03070422.jpg


Look at the edges of the objects that intersect with the water...

Notice how they become distorted? That's the issue...
 

Floyd

Member
dark10x said:
I dunno, I think you are confusing model quality for texture effect quality. The fur shading really helps...

But textures and fur shading are part of what makes them look better. Which im assuming is why he said they look better to him. It's why they look better to me too.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Floyd said:
But textures and fur shading are part of what makes them look better. Which im assuming is why he said they look better to him. It's why they look better to me too.

Ah, OK. You're right, geometry is not everything (since Jak 2's characters DO have more geometry, it would seem). Doom 3's monsters look very detailed, but they are really rather low-poly.
 

ourumov

Member
When a game is running you don't notice those things...Ah screw da haters ! I think it looks good :)

Then again, I never said Billy Hatcher looked better than J&D but that I was impressed by it. Texture Quality isn't so bad as in Ratchet & Clank for instance, it has slowdown but only when there are tons of enemies on screen and overal I think the game's graphics are ok :) .

Sure R&C/J&D offer you an awesome draw distance but the poor texturing (if present [Remember R&C]) kills the whole effect.
At the end I find myself enjoying much more games which feature nicer texturing. For instance there is the case of Castlevania PS2 which features good texturing (although very repetitive).

There has to be found some kind of balance between texturing and environment and that's something only a few games on PS2 achieve.
 

JJConrad

Sucks at viral marketing
Personally, I don't really understand why that other forum would hold JakII as the pinnacle of PS2's graphical prowess... but that's just me.

The biggest problem with trying to convince people on what looks better with screenshot is that rarely does a picture capture all the detail of a game... especially with the Gamecube's poor capture quility. You really need to see the games in motion, side-by-side, to decide. For example, Metroid Prime looks absolutely horrible in screenshots, but is one of the best over-all looking games this generation.

Here are some games I recommend using:

Rogue Squadron 2 is a great example for demonstrating great visuals and technical strength. Factor 5 has also produced some of the cleanest screenshots for a Gamecube game.
rleader6.jpg

rleader2.jpg
sweetrogue4.jpg

It features scores of different special effects, with dozen of "characters" on-screen. The game has both a large scope per stage, but also the refined, smaller details. However, it doesn't have much animation.


Rebel Strike surpasses Rogue Leader in every possible way. Better lighting, more on-screen objects, better textures and a whole lot more animations (regardless if you like them or not).
rstrike_070303_x2.jpg

strikingrebels_053003_gcn_03.jpg

The image above doesn't even begin to demonstrate to the level of action in the Endor AT-ST stage. There are sections in which you'll come literally dozens of stormtroopers, ewoks, and as many 5 other AT-ST at once. The biggest flaw of the Rogue Squadron series has been its frame-rate, but RS3 maintains a fairly decent frame-rate, with some noticible hitches however.


I'd also recommend Luigi's Mansion for its amazing partical effects and lighting.
luigioct10.jpg



Super Mario Sunshine for its wonderful animation, special effects and water. Despite always being bagged on for its graphics, the game looks excellent in motion. Overall, it's very comparible to Jak II, but without as many frame-rate issues.
mariosunshine_0614_gcn_ss30.jpg





Here are a few more screenshots to look at, they're not really fair to compare Jak II to, but they're fun to look at:
re4_030404_02.jpg

the-legend-of-zelda-gcn-200405110616314.jpg
 

wazoo

Member
Funny, I'm currently playing JAK2 :)

The game pushs the PS2 where it shines and hides its flaws very cleverly. Its does not try to do what it can not do. Simply, lots of geometry, pretty low textures. Very impressive until the framerate drops, which happens often (all the time in the city, even in the startup sequence !!!) and sometimes in the missions. Would have the framerate been stable, it would have been a masterpiece (at least technically).

As for comparing with the GC games,
- Wind Waker has better animation
- SMS has better texturing/heat effects

which does not mean, they are better technically. Very difficult to say.
 

Buggy Loop

Gold Member
I loved Jak II. Its visual styles kinda follows the pixar mentality, very well animated models (some of the best i've seen) with very expressive faces. Environments are a geometry behemoth while texturing wise its so so but it fits the style of the game with a certain cartoon look to it, its not trying to look realistic.

I would say that Zone of the enders 2nd runner >> Jak 2 in complexity, and as ps2's best showcase of what it can do and do it well.
 

ourumov

Member
JAK2 is not "the pinnacle of PS2 power". I think Silent Hill 3 is.

-Tons of Geometry on Characters
-Dynamic Shadowing that affects everything (as SH2)
-Great textures
-Awesome animation
-RockSolid Framerate
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Personally, I don't really understand why that other forum would hold JakII as the pinnacle of PS2's graphical prowess...
Jak2 (well now that would be Jak3) is techncally probably the most accomplished PS2 engine that I know of. It's not my favorite looking game by any stretch of imagination, but I'm well aware of what it does, and how few other PS2 games (or even games in general) do it.

Overall, it's very comparible to Jak II, but without as many frame-rate issues.
SMS runs at 30FPS, and pushes WAY less geometry than Jak 2 . Let's not even bring it into this discussion, as other games mentioned so far put it to shame.
 

Defensor

Mistaken iRobbery!
ourumov said:
JAK2 is not "the pinnacle of PS2 power". I think Silent Hill 3 is.

-Tons of Geometry on Characters
-Dynamic Shadowing that affects everything (as SH2)
-Great textures
-Awesome animation
-RockSolid Framerate
Im I crazy if I think Silent Hill 4 looks worse than 3?
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Marconelly said:
Jak2 (well now that would be Jak3) is techncally probably the most accomplished PS2 engine that I know of. It's not my favorite looking game by any stretch of imagination, but I'm well aware of what it does, and how few other PS2 games (or even games in general) do it.


SMS runs at 30FPS, and pushes WAY less geometry than Jak 2 . Let's not even bring it into this discussion, as other games mentioned so far put it to shame.

Yeah, I was just about to say that. If Jak 2 was running at 30 fps it wouldn't have framerate issues either (as it never drops below 30 fps). Jak 2 also pushes a lot more geometry, though Mario Sunshine is no slouch in that department.

Im I crazy if I think Silent Hill 4 looks worse than 3?

No, the focus changed. SH3 was able to achieve such detailed visuals do to the limited viewing distance. SH4 no longer masks its levels in fog or darkness, so the detail is dropped (though not by as much as people think). However, the lighting doesn't seem as good due to the fact that there really are no dynamic light sources to cast shadows with...
 

Ristamar

Member
Let's not even bring it into this discussion, as other games mentioned so far put it to shame.


I think you're selling short the complexity of SMS' water detail, motion, and physics. :p Some of the game's textures were pretty damn awful, though, I will say that.
 
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