Support NeoGAF

[Loki]

I have never replied to a Loki post yet, but I felt compelled here. You always make good points but I think this is one of your best. There is no better description of Kobe's Jordan-like game that what you just said. I keep waiting to see Kobe try the one hand pump fake (the one Jordan did on Cliff Levingston when he was still with the Hawks).

I can't hate on Kobe's game. It just seems to me that I'm always watching him do things that I've already seen someone else do.

He can't-- small hands!


And I don't hate on Kobe' game either-- if anything, I feel I give him his PROPER respect, which is that he's possibly the MOST TALENTED player in the league and also one of its top 3 players. Any further than that ("best player in the league", "BEST PLAYER EVAR OMG!!" etc.) I cannot go until I see more. Yet some people seem compelled to go further based on spurious evidence.

 

[Cloudy]

Wow, Ray-Ray is breaking Eddie Jones down :lol

 

[TheDuce22]

I love watching the Suns just break teams in the 1st. Its 25-7 with like 5 minuets left in the 1st. Last night they had 69 points by half time.

 

[Cloudy]

The Lakers are one of the only teams to not get blown out by them (and they've played twice with the Lakers leading by double digits both games >_<

 

[Matrix]

Remember when Manute made like 7 threes in a game? He had the weirdest shot of all time, he would hold the ball with both hands behind his head and somehow it went in.

He was always good for a laugh when I went to Sixers games back in the day.

It is too early to pronounce judgment on Yao. I don't think he will ever be great defensively, but he has a chance to be a really good player on offense.

Its odd to look at a pic of an NBA ball player and feel the need to feed him.

 

[AirBrian]

How many games does Stephen Jackson have left on his suspension?

 

[Bat]

Loki, I think you're off in several areas. No other players "copy" Jordan's moves exactly like Kobe does because no one else really can. Some don't have the quickness (Ray Allen), strength, or size, while others are just too...different. Look at Lebron....if he takes moves from anyone, it's not gonna come out anything like his predocessor because his body (and thus what he can do with it) is just so different from anyone else's.

Anyways, I never even came close to saying all of Kobe's moves are taken from others. He does stuff way outside the three point line that Jordan never did (because Jordan never played that far outside). His splitting of double teams is quite unique (though it costs him a TO a game) and he's been doing that a lot this year and last. There's some other stuff too....but whatever, i'm sure the feds are arresting him for copyright infringment at your request.

 

[AstroLad]

I love watching the Suns just break teams in the 1st. Its 25-7 with like 5 minuets left in the 1st. Last night they had 69 points by half time.

77-47 right now. Holy Jesus. Now this is fun basketball. And they just played last night too. Nuts.

 

[TheDuce22]

90-55 and it almost seems like they have been coasting since the first quarter.

 

[Guzim]

:lol

90-55 now

Wow. Will the Suns beat 72-10?

 

[Loki]

Loki, I think you're off in several areas. No other players "copy" Jordan's moves exactly like Kobe does because no one else really can. Some don't have the quickness (Ray Allen), strength, or size, while others are just too...different. Look at Lebron....if he takes moves from anyone, it's not gonna come out anything like his predocessor because his body (and thus what he can do with it) is just so different from anyone else's.

Anyways, I never even came close to saying all of Kobe's moves are taken from others. He does stuff way outside the three point line that Jordan never did (because Jordan never played that far outside). His splitting of double teams is quite unique (though it costs him a TO a game) and he's been doing that a lot this year and last. There's some other stuff too....but whatever, i'm sure the feds are arresting him for copyright infringment at your request.

I never said that Kobe didn't have skills that Jordan didn't have, because he does-- namely, three-point shooting (though MJ could hit them when it counted, Kobe's much more consistent from deep). I was referring to specific moves and techniques. And you make a good point about few (if any) others except for Kobe being able to pull Jordan's moves off effectively due to body type/athleticism, but I still think that there have been other 6'6" swingmen (Vince Carter, for one; Allen for another) who could have tried to do so-- it still would have benefitted their game to some degree, but they would have not been as successful as Kobe's been with them due to the advantages he has (as Jordan had). So why haven't these other guards/players done so if it would have helped them (however much)? I feel that it's because they're not tacky like Kobe is, and they have some decency about them.


Also, the reason that Kobe is more successful at emulating those moves than other players would be is the same reason that many people make the Kobe/Jordan comparisons in the first place: there's nobody else who moves like them in terms of body control and fluidity. That's a credit to both of them, and I've always admitted that Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan since Jordan.


Also, nobody's split more double-teams (either on the perimeter or on the pick & roll) than Jordan did. Nobody. Kobe does it a lot this year (about as much as Jordan did in his athletic prime), but he's not smart about when he tries it, resulting in TO's, as you mentioned. He does it especially frequently against Sacramento, because, well...they're Sacramento (i.e., no team defense or communication ). Nobody was better at splitting the double-team (on the perimeter or in the post) than Jordan, or as smart in reading where the help was coming from and moving to an area on the floor where there was less defensive pressure for his shot.


Also, that was a NASTY fast-break dunk by McGrady a few minutes ago.

but whatever, i'm sure the feds are arresting him for copyright infringment at your request.

It's about goddamn time! :lol

 

[Loki]

Wow. Will the Suns beat 72-10?

The Bulls were 39-3 at one point, and 49-4. So while it's possible, it's going to be incredibly difficult. One thing that could work in the Suns' favor, however, is the fact that their attack is so diversified-- they have so many weapons everywhere on the floor. So an injury to one player isn't going to destroy them the way it would have hurt the Bulls if Jordan, Pippen, or Rodman were out for an extended period (though Pippen was out for 33 games one year and Rodman for 15 games, yet they posted 69 and 67-win seasons ).


Now if the injury is to Nash, then that's another story entirely. As Nash goes, so go the Suns.

 

[Kcerrid 31]

Great posts guys (as usual). I sometimes feel quite priviledged to be a part of this thread, and you guys are the reason why.

Anyway, great post Loki, and Jordan fans alike. You made the exact point that can't seem to sink into the minds of Kobe fans here. It's not that we don't respect Kobe's game per se, we just get frustrated with the constant biting of Jordan's moves and having it seem as if Kobe was the originator. It's almost like a slap in the face to everything Jordan created and built upon on his own, which is a great body of work on the level of a great musician or an artist.

Jordan was like watching art come to life, and it can only be appreciated had you been around to catch "live" games from the beginning. Most Pro-Jordan guys posting here were around for that era, so we have a better understanding of what Jordan created\originated on the court. It's a reason the man has a Freakin' statue built in his honor, you know. That's not to downplay the Dwyane Wades or Lebrons in the league either. Hell, I respect these guys more than Kobe because at least they're creating their own Identity in the NBA.

Imagine someone imitating your every move everyday, without an ounce of originality to be found, and lets see if you don't get pissed off a bit. Us oldschoolers were blessed to witness a player like Jordan in our lifetimes, and it's our obligation to set the record straight on how great he was, and expose Kobe for the biter that he is (damn, imagine if Jordan played before the video age, and you're trying to explain his accomplishments ). Do yourself a favor, and take that 20.00 bill that you were gonna buy that wack-ass less-than AAA videogame with and buy the Michael Jordan Ultimate collection dvd. Hopefully it'll give you an understanding of where the Jordan love comes from.

PS: Jordan BETTER be in NBA Street Vol.3, or EA can kiss my ass goodbye FOREVER!

 

[Cloudy]

Wow, the Sonics are good. They are raping the Heat from the arc in the 4th. Man, Lakers need to get a guy like Antonio Daniels. Combo guard who can defend the 1 or the 2. Can drive , dish and run the offense as well. Will hit jumpers if you leave him and cross your ass up the next play.

He's doing a great job on Wade this game. What FAs are similar to this guy?

 

[Loki]

Yeah, Daniels was a nice pick-up. Above-average defender (if a bit undersized to play the elite 2's), hustles, and is a very competent offensive player (in terms of mixing up his offensive game-- he can score outside and inside) even though he may not always put up big numbers. I liked him even when he was on Toronto.

 

[Poody]

A prestigious video for anyone who is a fan of Tmacs.

Tmac Story

props to LG

 

[BatiGOOOOOOL]

Loki, you mean Vancouver.

I really liked AD while on the Spurs, but he was so freaking inconsistent that it made you want to go nuts. Thankfully for him, he has found stability in Seattle and is realizing the potential he has.

 

[Miguel]

Imagine someone imitating your every move everyday, without an ounce of originality to be found, and lets see if you don't get pissed off a bit. Us oldschoolers were blessed to witness a player like Jordan in our lifetimes, and it's our obligation to set the record straight on how great he was, and expose Kobe for the biter that he is (damn, imagine if Jordan played before the video age, and you're trying to explain his accomplishments ). Do yourself a favor, and take that 20.00 bill that you were gonna buy that wack-ass less-than AAA videogame with and buy the Michael Jordan Ultimate collection dvd. Hopefully it'll give you an understanding of where the Jordan love comes from.

PS: Jordan BETTER be in NBA Street Vol.3, or EA can kiss my ass goodbye FOREVER!

Reading your post...


Kobe = Diddy!

Kobe keeps sampling Jordan's moves! :lol

 

[Loki]

Loki, you mean Vancouver.

Daniels was never on Toronto? Weird...brain fart.


Who the heck was I thinking of...?

 

[AstroLad]

Well, Suns just bested their win total from last year.

 

[Cloudy]

Heat lose again to a decent team. Can't wait to see them get blown out in Phoenix. Go Suns!!!!

That easy-ass sched coming back to bite 'em

http://teamrankings.com/nba/27powerratings.php3

 

[Jason]

Who the heck was I thinking of...?

Antonio Davis?

 

[Incognito]

well, after a terrible first half of no defense, the sonics picked it up in the second to rape the heat for the second time in a week.

ray allen and rashard lewis combinded for a total of 28pts and the sonics still won with the help from their big three off the bench -- radmonivic, fortons, and daniels combined for 60pts.

108-98 the final...

uh, konex, "decent" team? the sonics have been beating every playoff team they've faced, sans a 2pts loss to phoenix. the only problem i see from this team is immaturity, as their losses have come against lesser known east teams.

 

[bionic77]

Heat lose again to a decent team. Can't wait to see them get blown out in Phoenix. Go Suns!!!!

That easy-ass sched coming back to bite 'em

http://teamrankings.com/nba/27powerratings.php3

Stop the hate Konex!

Loki haha, I can't believe you are bitching about Kobe "stealing" Jordan's moves. I will admit there are some similarities to their games, but those similarities exist between most SGs. Also, are we giving Duncan credit for banking a shot off the glass? Was Jordan stealing from Dr. J every time he did an up and under? There are some moments when those up and unders looked almost exactly like Dr. Js. As a player you do whatever makes it necessary for you to play the game as long as you can pull it off consistently. Please, this is almost as ridiculous as one of my Roethisberger discussions, the only difference is that I know I am being crazy!

 

[Cloudy]

Lone, the Sonics are a great team but it seems the Heat have trouble with any team that's not an EC bottom feeder (i.e decent to contenders). Sonics have played one of the strongest scheds so far. They're for real..

 

[bionic77]

well, after a terrible first half of no defense, the sonics picked it up in the second to rape the heat for the second time in a week.

ray allen and rashard lewis combinded for a total of 28pts and the sonics still won with the help from their big three off the bench -- radmonivic, fortons, and daniels combined for 60pts.

108-98 the final...

uh, konex, "decent" team? the sonics have been beating every playoff team they've faced, sans a 2pts loss to phoenix. the only problem i see from this team is immaturity, as their losses have come against lesser known east teams.

Lonestar please pay attention to the thread. Konex is just trying to diss the Heat (and thus Shaq) any way he can. :lol

 

[Incognito]

thanks for posting that link, konex. you just proved my point.

:lol

of the big four teams, seattle, miami, phoenix, and san antonio, only the sonics have a strength of schedule rating in the positives. the others are playing with the cupcakes thus far...

 

[DMczaf]

Heat lose again to a decent team. Can't wait to see them get blown out in Phoenix. Go Suns!!!!

That easy-ass sched coming back to bite 'em

http://teamrankings.com/nba/27powerratings.php3

Between your hate of Shaq and Incognito's hate of T-Mac, we need to get a GAF Player Haters Ball going.

Where you at, Wasabi?!

 

[Shoryuken]

Well, Suns just bested their win total from last year.

Don't forget that they also set a new season high with 124 points (122 was the old high).

 

[Fifty]

Between your hate of Shaq and Incognito's hate of T-Mac, we need to get a GAF Player Haters Ball going.

Where you at, Wasabi?!

Can I apply to the club as a hater of Vince? I'll carry the towels, anything to get in the door.

 

[All Hail C-Webb]

thanks for posting that link, konex. you just proved my point.

:lol

of the big four teams, seattle, miami, phoenix, and san antonio, only the sonics have a strength of schedule rating in the positives. the others are playing with the cupcakes thus far...

Seattle is not one of the "big 4." Regular season success means nothing, as proven by my Sacramento Kings. Seattle will be lucky to get out of the 1st round, the Twolves, Mavs, and Kings are all more dangerous than them.

 

[DMczaf]

Can I apply to the club as a hater of Vince? I'll carry the towels, anything to get in the door.

You can be a nominee if you can build up as many hateful posts about that player as Incognito and Konex have.

 

[Cloudy]

D-Wade is awesome but he needs to get a J. Sonics denied him the paint all game and he only scored on the break and at the line. When they sag off to Shaq, he needs to make them pay with the mid-range shot not try to drive in there too...

 

[Matrix]

Dont forget to put Piston in the club...dude hates Yao like no other.

 

[Fifty]

You can be a nominee if you can build up as many hateful posts about that player as Incognito and Konex have.

This'll take a while. Do I get extra points for being really, really rude?

 

[Incognito]

Seattle is not one of the "big 4." Regular season success means nothing, as proven by my Sacramento Kings. Seattle will be lucky to get out of the 1st round, the Twolves, Mavs, and Kings are all more dangerous than them.

what a sad, sad troll you've become. are you still reeling from that 30pt shellacking seattle dished out on the kings earlier this year? or are you upset that your kings have NEVER EVER BEEN TO THE NBA FINALS?

it's the height of hilarity and irony when a kings fan blurts out the "regular season means nothing, it's all about playoffs, duh!" garbage. when the kings ever do something in the playoffs worth mentioning, feel free to post again. otherwise, stfu you ridiculous knob.

 

[DMczaf]

This'll take a while. Do I get extra points for being really, really rude?

You get extra points when you hate on him after wins too.

 

[Loki]

Stop the hate Konex!

Loki haha, I can't believe you are bitching about Kobe "stealing" Jordan's moves. I will admit there are some similarities to their games, but those similarities exist between most SGs. Also, are we giving Duncan credit for banking a shot off the glass? Was Jordan stealing from Dr. J every time he did an up and under? There are some moments when those up and unders looked almost exactly like Dr. Js. As a player you do whatever makes it necessary for you to play the game as long as you can pull it off consistently. Please, this is almost as ridiculous as one of my Roethisberger discussions, the only difference is that I know I am being crazy!

Huh? You obviously didn't read my posts-- the moves I'm referring to are VERY (Jordan) specific, not merely general moves such as "up-and-unders", which have been a part of the game since the 60's (if you're referring to the post move by that name). It's not a matter of "Kobe just took a pull-up jumper and OMG JORDAN HAS TAKEN PULL-UP JUMPERS TEH ALSO!!1"


Also, the fact is that NO other SG has ever used this sort of Jordan-specific footwork and technique like Kobe has, and I'm sure there is a very good reason for that-- and it's not just because Kobe is the only one who can "pull it off" (why wouldn't lesser players try to emulate the moves/technique of great players in order to improve their game?), but rather because he has likely sat there and watched tape of specific movements and mannerisms and actually practiced them.


I'll say it again, and I don't care who doesn't believe me, since I know what I'm talking about: No other star shooting guard or SF has utilized these moves I'm speaking of, either before Jordan or since, except for Kobe this season. This is inarguable imo, so we'll just leave it at that. I closely watch ALL star players' tendencies and movements on offense and defense, and I have not seen a Ray Allen, an Allen Iverson, a Vince Carter, a Paul Pierce, a TMac-- I've never seen a single one of them perform even a single one of the moves discussed herein as well as others that Kobe has cribbed from Jordan. Period.


This is why we need to go to the tapes. I'm telling you, if I had videos (DVD's, to indulge you-- VHS is so passe ) of every game played by Allen, Iverson, TMac et al. from this season and last, and we sat down and watched ALL of them together, you would not be able to find a single instance of the sort of moves and techniques I'm talking about. Except for Kobe. What, TMac wouldn't benefit from trying to copy the moves? Of course he would-- they're excellent, effective maneuvers, as Kobe has learned. Why haven't any other players done so? Well, fundamental decency as human beings, for one. Seriously though...it's just tacky-- dunno what else to call it, really. Intentionally and explicitly copying another player's moves-- when you are supposedly "so great" and certainly have enough talent to create your own moves-- should be frowned upon by the basketball community; indeed, by society at large.

 

[All Hail C-Webb]

what a sad, sad troll you've become. are you still reeling from that 30pt shellacking seattle dished out on the kings earlier this year? or are you upset that your kings have NEVER EVER BEEN TO THE NBA FINALS?

it's the height of hilarity and irony when a kings fan blurts out the "regular season means nothing, it's all about playoffs, duh!" garbage. when the kings ever do something in the playoffs worth mentioning, feel free to post again. otherwise, stfu you ridiculous knob.

I'm not a Kings fan, I only follow them because Webber plays for them. If he ever gets traded, m loyalty to the Kings goes out the window. Webber will be in the HOF, he is an all star, he was Rookie of The Year, and he still might get a championship. He will be remembered as an American hero, and I will always be proud to have called him my friend.

 

[Incognito]

You get extra points when you hate on him after wins too.

that makes it extra tough on us i-mac haters.

:lol :lol :lol

as i type this, the rockets are in the midst of another one of their infamous meltdowns against the nuggets.

 

[Fifty]

I'm not a Kings fan, I only follow them because Webber plays for them. If he ever gets traded, m loyalty to the Kings goes out the window. Webber will be in the HOF, he is an all star, he was Rookie of The Year, and he still might get a championship. He will be remembered as an American hero, and I will always be proud to have called him my friend.

Have you ever met him?

 

[Loki]

I'm not a Kings fan, I only follow them because Webber plays for them. If he ever gets traded, m loyalty to the Kings goes out the window. Webber will be in the HOF, he is an all star, he was Rookie of The Year, and he still might get a championship. He will be remembered as an American hero, and I will always be proud to have called him my friend.

Jesus-- and people think I'm obsessed.

Take note: I've never called Jordan "an American hero" (icon, perhaps), nor have I ever stated that we were "friends". Issues, man...issues. :lol

 

[Cloudy]

Fifty, you know better than to take a Sactown post 100% seriously :lol

 

[Fifty]

Oh I know, but it's kind of sad.

 

[AirBrian]

Since we're talking about Kobe... ...I have one small question/complaint: does anyone notice how many head-fakes he does in a game? Against the Mavs the other night, I swear, whenever he didn't have a shot he would just bob up and down like a fucking ostrich 3 and 4 and sometimes 5 times. It was quite annoying. I guess since it's effective in getting a "foul" called, he should keep doing it, but damn.

 

[bionic77]

Huh? You obviously didn't read my posts-- the moves I'm referring to are VERY (Jordan) specific, not merely general moves such as "up-and-unders", which have been a part of the game since the 60's (if you're referring to the post move by that name).


Also, the fact is that NO other SG has EVER used this sort of Jordan specific footwork and technique like Kobe has, and I'm sure there is a very good reason for that-- and it's not just because Kobe is the only one who can "pull it off" (why wouldn't lesser players try to emulate the moves/technique of great players in order to improve their game?), but rather because he has likely sat there and watched tape of specific movements and mannerisms and actually practiced them.


I'll say it again, and I don't care who doesn't believe me, since I know what I'm talking about: No other star shooting guard or SF has utilized these moves I'm speaking of, either before Jordan or since, except for Kobe this season. This is inarguable imo, so we'll just leave it at that. I closely watch ALL star players' tendencies and movements on offense and defense, and I have not seen a Ray Allen, an Allen Iverson, a Vince Carter, a Paul Pierce, a TMac-- I've never seen a single one of them perform even a single one of the moves discussed herein as well as others that Kobe has cribbed from Jordan. Period.


This is why we need to go to the tapes. I'm telling you, if I had videos (DVD's, to indulge you-- VHS is so passe ) of every game played by Allen, Iverson, TMac et al. from this season and last, and we sat down and watched ALL of them together, you would not be able to find a single instance of the sort of moves and techniques I'm talking about. Except for Kobe. What, TMac wouldn't benefit from trying to copy the moves? Of course he would-- they're excellent, effective maneuvers, as Kobe has learned. Why haven't any other players done so? Fundamental decency as human beings. Seriously though...it's just tacky-- dunno what else to call it, really. Intentionally and explicitly copying another player's moves-- when you are supposedly "so great" and certainly have enough talent to create your own moves-- should be frowned upon by the basketball community-- indeed, by society at large.

Granted I am not clearly as obessed or delusional or whatever it is you feel towards MJ, but I feel you are clearly being crazy. Just because Jordan did a particular move no one else can ever do it? At most I will give you the point that maybe Kobe has taken some of Jordan's footwork (and of course improved on it), but I won't take it as a fact that you have memorized every SG of all time just because you have taped a few Bulls playoff games and watched them until the tape broke. Kobe definitely has a style that is all his own when you watch him play. For example, Kobe rarely relies on his hangtime the way Jordan did, more often he tries to use angles to attack the basket and get his shot off instead. Just one of many examples of how different their games are. I am sure if someone tried hard enough they could find someone who did all of that before Kobe, but who the fuck cares?

Oh that is right, Jordaphiles who have had nothing to do with their time since 1998.

You guys need to get a hobby or at least spend your free time worshipping the greatest athlete of ALL time.

Say my name bitch, say my name!

The Greatest > *.

 

[DMczaf]

 

[AirBrian]

:lol :lol

WTF -- even a Bulls tattoo!

 

[bionic77]

I'm not a Kings fan, I only follow them because Webber plays for them. If he ever gets traded, m loyalty to the Kings goes out the window. Webber will be in the HOF, he is an all star, he was Rookie of The Year, and he still might get a championship. He will be remembered as an American hero, and I will always be proud to have called him my friend.

There is a rumor that Webber might be traded to the Knicks.

Sactown the new GM of the Knicks?

 

[bionic77]

You just crossed the line DM between humor and indecency!