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[Bluekaveli]

It os hard to quantify that but we know that wwe feel that their level of showmanship, technique and process is leagues above anyone who came before or even stood side by side with them at some point in the industry. At best, i could probably believe that that match was a metaphor for this. Samoa Joe spoke about this too as do the wcw guys: that when they stepped into wwe, it was apparent just how well they had their shit together and i think thats the story you can tell in a wwe icon vs wcw icon story.

I dont buy into it was a personal masterbation session for hunter and vince. What do they get out of it?

Hunter: "Hey, guys! I beat Sting. Yeah, it was on the script but i still beat him!"

Or

Vince: "god im so glad i took thise bitches down."

I just dont buy into it and furthermore, there is just zero evidence that this is the case. Certainly arguing the judgment exercised in the way that match was executed and the how the story was told is valid but judging intent is a hard thing to do, no matter what Hall said.

It's like you keep saying to yourself, ok ok we get it now. No need to beat a dead horse old man.

 

[serenewarfare]

Now you know who to thank for Wrestlemania 30 and Bryan's two wins.

People forget about the flip side of the "Vince makes every decision, that's why this sucks" coin.

Well yeah, Vince makes good decisions from time to time. I would expect that out of a guy who's had as much success as he has had over his lifetime. But there's absolutely an argument to be made that nowadays he is wrong much more than he is right, and that is a valid criticism. And even the Bryan thing was so clearly a thing they felt like they absolutely had to do, and not something they were 100% into.

 

[Man God]

They were 100% into Daniel Bryan the summer before Wrestlemania XXX. The only thing that substantially changed was the time frame. It's clear he was going to be the next big thing and probably getting a run that summer after Big Dave.

 

[serenewarfare]

They were 100% into Daniel Bryan the summer before Wrestlemania XXX. The only thing that substantially changed was the time frame. It's clear he was going to be the next big thing and probably getting a run that summer after Big Dave.

Well we know when the Brock/Taker decision was made, that put into motion Brock winning the title at Summerslam, irrelevant of who his opponent was. Reigns/Brock was a year in the making. And the decision to build to that was made after they decided to put the belt on Bryan and before he ever got hurt the first time. Bryan wasn't going to get in the way of the Roman ascension, and that was a decision from both Hunter and Vince.

 

[UberTag]

Well yeah, Vince makes good decisions from time to time. I would expect that out of a guy who's had as much success as he has had over his lifetime. But there's absolutely an argument to be made that nowadays he is wrong much more than he is right, and that is a valid criticism. And even the Bryan thing was so clearly a thing they felt like they absolutely had to do, and not something they were 100% into.

Vince is capable of still making good decisions "in the moment". Typically, they amount to him reacting to a groundswell of negative feedback and pulling the trigger on something good. Like having Rollins cash-in at Mania last year.

The problem is that any "in the moment" decision he stumbles across on the fly is just that... "in the moment". The fundamental challenges of no long-term booking apart from angles the public is largely against seeing play out isn't lessened by making the correct call "in the moment" and the impact of most of those "good for the business" calls is diminished almost immediately because they've made no plans on how to follow up on any of them.

For the most recent example, take Roman's current title reign after the one decent RAW where he won the belt on free television.

 

[British Monsoon]

Speaking of our other Lord and Savior, Zandig, has he ever had any other gimmicks?

Maybe his odds need to be increased.

In his early days, years before he discovered the wonders of UltraViolence, he was an Ultimate Warrior mark who went by the name The Icon;

 

[Kaladin]

They were 100% into Daniel Bryan the summer before Wrestlemania XXX. The only thing that substantially changed was the time frame. It's clear he was going to be the next big thing and probably getting a run that summer after Big Dave.

When you think about the build to Wrestlemania 30. You realize it very well could be one of those cases of WWE having a plan (Bryan going over) and altering it to amplify the existing crowd frenzy behind Bryan. I don't subscribe to the belief that the WWE universe got them to change the plan going into the event, but WWE did run with the crowd hijacking the events movement to build the frenzy and hype behind the event.

 

[Heroman]

When was the last good long term booking vince has done?

 

[Frecklestein]

In his early days, years before he discovered the wonders of UltraViolence, he was an Ultimate Warrior mark who went by the name The Icon;

Zandig is what happens when you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

 

[Man God]

Well we know when the Brock/Taker decision was made, that put into motion Brock winning the title at Summerslam, irrelevant of who his opponent was. Reigns/Brock was a year in the making. And the decision to build to that was made after they decided to put the belt on Bryan and before he ever got hurt the first time. Bryan wasn't going to get in the way of the Roman ascension, and that was a decision from both Hunter and Vince.

Actually I think they were holding off Brock until WM 31 but changed the plans after Bryan got injured.

 

[UberTag]

When was the last good long term booking vince has done?

I want to say the Michaels-Jericho program in 2008.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

In his early days, years before he discovered the wonders of UltraViolence, he was an Ultimate Warrior mark who went by the name The Icon;

Perhaps The Icon will show up at the Avatar Rumble

But, alas, this may start a worrying trend. Perhaps Necro Butcher belongs.

 

[serenewarfare]

Actually I think they were holding off Brock until WM 31 but changed the plans after Bryan got injured.

Nah. Brock vs. Bryan at Summerslam was reported prior to Bryan getting hurt. That was the match, and Bryan was going to lose. There's no doubt about that.

 

[Bluekaveli]

In his early days, years before he discovered the wonders of UltraViolence, he was an Ultimate Warrior mark who went by the name The Icon;

I like this guy!

 

[Anth0ny]

Vince is capable of still making good decisions "in the moment". Typically, they amount to him reacting to a groundswell of negative feedback and pulling the trigger on something good. Like having Rollins cash-in at Mania last year.

The problem is that any "in the moment" decision he stumbles across on the fly is just that... "in the moment". The fundamental challenges of no long-term booking apart from angles the public is largely against seeing play out isn't lessened by making the correct call "in the moment" and the impact of most of those "good for the business" calls is diminished almost immediately because they've made no plans on how to follow up on any of them.

For the most recent example, take Roman's current title reign after the one decent RAW where he won the belt on free television.

Basically. Looking at Bryan's run after Mania 30 it's clear Vince was forced into putting him over against his wishes.

Vince is a fucking hack fraud

 

[somedevil]

They were 100% into Daniel Bryan the summer before Wrestlemania XXX. The only thing that substantially changed was the time frame. It's clear he was going to be the next big thing and probably getting a run that summer after Big Dave.

I doubt that. Reading Bryan's book he never gave that idea was going to a push the summer after Wrestlemania.

All they had was Dave vs Orton at Wrestlemania while Bryan got Sheamus. The crowd basically forced their hand in putting Bryan in the match.

After his win the plan was him to get destroyed like Cena did at Summerslam to Brock Lesnar so in their mind Reigns could win the title at Wrestlemania.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

I want to say the Michaels-Jericho program in 2008.

Here's what Jericho had to say about getting feuds off the ground:

“Brian Gewirtz is very much responsible for some of the greatest things we’ve seen over the years. That guy is as close to being a genius on coming up with ideas as Vince [McMahon]. Then you had Shawn Michaels, who is one of the best in the business, and Chris Jericho, who is a Shawn Michaels disciple who is at the peak of his game after 17 years in the business. It is a perfect storm of trust and creatively. You had the fans buy into it. When I punched Rebecca in the face, it was supposed to happen, but obviously I wasn’t supposed to hit her for real. She zigged when she was supposed to zag and I zigged when she was supposed to zag and I actually hit her. We felt so devastated and I thought for sure Shawn was going to kick my ass and I gladly would have let him. All she got was a fat lip and after she got up she was like “Is that all you got Chris?” people that were watching because people say then after a week we realized this was the best thing that could have happened. It made it real and the people are saying if anyone hit my wife, my husband, grandmother, and grandfather I am going to kill them. That is when the feud went into overdrive because it got real.”

“Well, it is different; after Michaels there was the [Rey] Mysterio angle. That is what I pitched to Vince to work around Rey’s mask. Vince said, “They don’t care about the mask.” And I said, “Of course they do. That is why they buy it.” We had this guy wear a mask and never explained what it means to him. I want his mask. Vince said, “Why do you want his mask?” I said, “Because I am a bully. I want his milk money. I don’t want any milk. I am going to take it and throw it into the lake.” Then Vince loved it.”

“Then with the CM Punk feud in 2012. My thing is I wanted to take it to this next level. I wanted to tattoo him. Vince loved it and then was kind of talked out of it. I think someone got in his ear that there is going to be blood. Plus Vince said he has a million tattoos. Well, it doesn’t matter if he has a million tattoos. What if I tattoo my initials on him FOR REAL? Punk was saying, “Let’s do this for real” and that is like being violated. That is why we switched over to the alcoholic thing and I got a lot of hate for that. People saying, “Oh, my father is an alcoholic” and “how dare you say and use that as a crutch for a pro wrestling storyline.” Guess what? That is why I did it. I was begging Vince for us to do the tattoo angle; someone had told Vince that tattoos will create blood and Vince got scared. Plus…[Vince] doesn’t have tattoos so he doesn’t get it. He came up with the idea that Punk’s dad has problems with alcohol and you think he wouldn’t go for it and to Punk’s credit and he went for it. I don’t know if he had issues with his family and he wanted to take it out with them and I don’t think he even told his dad about it. Punk gave us full 100 percent with it as he should have and then his sister got involved, then it got real. Can we do that now? I don’t know because you got to go into a deep place? When I came back with the Bray Wyatt thing and I was on fire and I was pitching so many ideas, I went in to pitch some ideas to Vince for Summerslam and the PPV after that, and his response was – and this is great I should save it for my next book – he was eating steak and I went through this entire ten minute pitch about this and that and this guy will come back and this retired gunslinger will come in and help his old rival and this whole thing and his response while eating his steak and he says “Bad cow” I said what? “Bad cow, this steak is tough, bad cow” I am like” is that all you have to say?” And he is like, “What else you got?” And I am like, “Okay, he doesn’t like this idea.” We didn’t do much with the story, but like I said, all I can do is make suggestions and he is the boss, so he makes the suggestions, but I am a big fan for long storylines.”

 

[serenewarfare]

Really, Bryan getting hurt ended up probably screwing up Roman Reigns too. The plan was for Brock to destroy Bryan at Summerslam like he did to Cena, so that Brock would come out as a super-hot heel because he destroyed the crowd's favorite guy. Instead, he had to destroy Cena, and that caused him to become a super-hot babyface, which he still is today. Had he been the mega-heel that they wanted going into WM 31, the crowd probably would have been much more receptive to Roman trying to beat him. Instead the crowd picked Lesnar over him.

 

[somedevil]

After, their first match was not good. The last two matches of Alberto vs Kalisto have been very good but brutal. Alberto is stiff as hell when facing him. Its like he having flashbacks and thinks he beating on the original Sin Cara.

 

[Heroman]

Ugh I hate 50 50 booking.

 

[serenewarfare]

If you want evidence of Vince having no idea how to deal with WCW guys, just look at Goldberg. Just re-watched his debut angle, and holy shit the crowd was so unbelievably hot for him. And a year later the crowd fucking hates him and he's miserable on his way out the door.

 

[plagiarize]

After, their first match. The last two matches have been very good but brutal. Alberto is stiff as hell when facing him. Its like he having flashbacks and thinks he beating on the original Sin Cara.

Does anyone take spills to the outside as well as Kalisto these days?

And... what's this... heel Lawler? Mauro being allowed to call the matches? Is this good commentary or has it been too long since I heard good commentary?

I will quit Raw if they don't fuck up what they've got going on here.

 

[Kaladin]

 

[DMczaf]

no selling the codebreaker???

 

[Bubba T]

Really, Bryan getting hurt ended up probably screwing up Roman Reigns too. The plan was for Brock to destroy Bryan at Summerslam like he did to Cena, so that Brock would come out as a super-hot heel because he destroyed the crowd's favorite guy. Instead, he had to destroy Cena, and that caused him to become a super-hot babyface, which he still is today. Had he been the mega-heel that they wanted going into WM 31, the crowd probably would have been much more receptive to Roman trying to beat him. Instead the crowd picked Lesnar over him.

Reading this comment made me turn on that Cena/Lesnar Summerslam match. I was thoroughly sports entertained.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Someone has to teach this dude about the concept of comedic timing.

 

[Bluekaveli]

Here's what Jericho had to say about getting feuds off the ground:

It's this from his book? I need to get it definitely.

 

[avengers23]

Really, Bryan getting hurt ended up probably screwing up Roman Reigns too. The plan was for Brock to destroy Bryan at Summerslam like he did to Cena, so that Brock would come out as a super-hot heel because he destroyed the crowd's favorite guy. Instead, he had to destroy Cena, and that caused him to become a super-hot babyface, which he still is today. Had he been the mega-heel that they wanted going into WM 31, the crowd probably would have been much more receptive to Roman trying to beat him. Instead the crowd picked Lesnar over him.

I'm confident that the crowd would have preferred Brock over Reigns even if he killed Bryan.

 

[Bluekaveli]

Does anyone take spills to the outside as well as Kalisto these days?

And... what's this... heel Lawler? Mauro being allowed to call the matches? Is this good commentary or has it been too long since I heard good commentary?

I will quit Raw if they don't fuck up what they've got going on here.

Wait! Heel Lawler? I might need to watch this sd.

 

[RBH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYJUHaoNK6w



That intro :')

 

[Oersted]

 

[Bluekaveli]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYJUHaoNK6w



That intro :')

Something something something, thorn in your eye!

 

[JesseEwiak]

If you want evidence of Vince having no idea how to deal with WCW guys, just look at Goldberg. Just re-watched his debut angle, and holy shit the crowd was so unbelievably hot for him. And a year later the crowd fucking hates him and he's miserable on his way out the door.

Eh, that was the original smark crowd who'd found out both guys were leaving in the days leading up to the match. Go to the previous RAW before WM and both guys were over.

 

[DMczaf]

Ugh I hate 50 50 booking.

What about 25 75 booking?

 

[Anth0ny]

And... what's this... heel Lawler? Mauro being allowed to call the matches? Is this good commentary or has it been too long since I heard good commentary?

I will quit Raw if they don't fuck up what they've got going on here.

It's really great. But it won't last.

 

[Bluekaveli]

What about 25 75 booking?

You're given Seth too much, it was more like 10-90. Very pathetic.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

The thing is, there is genuine gimmick posting that goes on in here, but it's ultimately a fruitless thing to call out because it's just kind of inherent in the nature of posting in a wrestling thread. Just have fun and treat everything as genuine, or ignore people that annoy you.

On an unrelated note, Mauro is doing a great job on Smackdown.

 

[plagiarize]

Wait! Heel Lawler? I might need to watch this sd.

I know, I couldn't believe it! Heel Lawler was always great on commentary. Face Lawler is awful.

 

[plagiarize]

The thing is, there is genuine gimmick posting that goes on in here, but it's ultimately a fruitless thing to call out because it's just kind of inherent in the nature of posting in a wrestling thread.

On an unrelated note, Mauro is doing a great job on Smackdown.

I'm glad I'm not just going crazy. If this keeps up I quit Raw for smack down so hard. They cover all the main scene stuff, and give the under and mid card guys I like more time... and it's only two hours long!

But I know that like always after a month or so they'll just let it slip again.

 

[RBH]

We have gotten an update that as of now, Dwayne Johnson is not wrestling at WrestleMania over the same insurance issues regarding the “Baywatch” movie that we’d written about. That still hasn’t changed at this point. This isn’t to say it won’t be worked through but right now they have a card and he is not wrestling on that card, although he is a key part of the show in some form. As of right now, the WrestleMania main event is scheduled as

Spoiler

Reigns vs. HHH

, so perhaps Johnson will be involved to counteract the McMahons in some form.

-January 18th, 2016 issue of the Observer

 

[Man God]

PG heel King in 2016 is a mind fuck.

 

[DMczaf]

Rock to raise HHH and Roman's arms at the end.

 

[Xion385]

Wait, what does 50/50 booking mean exactly? I have an idea what it might mean.

 

[DMczaf]

Wait, what does 50/50 booking mean exactly? I have an idea what it might mean.

Win one, lose one. Always .500 winning percentage. Never going up, never going down.

You just...exist.

 

[sf2fanatic]

Fuck

Spoiler

HHH!!

Oh snap wrong thread for disrespect day.

 

[Heroman]

-January 18th, 2016 issue of the Observer

Zzzzzzz at that main event.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I almost threw up laughing at the WWE Subway twitter.

 

[Bluekaveli]

I know, I couldn't believe it! Heel Lawler was always great on commentary. Face Lawler is awful.

Face Lawler, it's like he doesn't even know he's alive. He's there but dead. You remember in the Power Rangers movie when the parents were under the spell of Ivan Ooze? That's what Face Lawler is, he's under mind control.

-January 18th, 2016 issue of the Observer

Yeah I heard that yesterday. Something will be worked out brother! The Rock is under shambles to keep the secret hidden.

 

[serenewarfare]

Complaining about Triple H being in a big match is terrible. He's one of the most over heels on the roster, and he can still have good, even great, matches. Now you can argue that he shouldn't be the biggest heel, and that they should have spent time building up other guys, and you're right. But that's not what they've done, so it's a moot point. It'd be bad business not to have him in a big spot on the show. Now can you argue that he shouldn't be the main event? Yeah, but he's the biggest heel they've got, and in a year when the options are starting to run thin, he's far from the worst choice.

 

[UberTag]

Normally I'm down on the WWE's booking decisions... but this isn't one of them. Triple H is the logical foil for Reigns that they largely committed to the moment Rollins went down with injury. I'm not saying that's who I want to see in the top title program in the company but it is what they've built their product around since the fall and it would be absurd to throw that out the window at this point.

They've destroyed all of their other heels apart from the ones they're semi-protecting for Brock and Taker (guess who those are).

Now do I care to see that match and will it sell me on WrestleMania? Hell no. But I'm not in their target demographic right now.